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	<title>Comments on: Fear in Oxford</title>
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	<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/29/fear-in-oxford/</link>
	<description>Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don&#039;t want to hear</description>
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		<title>By: zkharya</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/29/fear-in-oxford/comment-page-2/#comment-498054</link>
		<dc:creator>zkharya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hurryupharry.org/?p=36860#comment-498054</guid>
		<description>Ariel says he didn&#039;t even know Argov was a Christian. Half the staff are non-Jewish. The head of Hebrew and Jewish studies at UCL was a Russian Orthodox Christian, John Klier, for years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ariel says he didn&#8217;t even know Argov was a Christian. Half the staff are non-Jewish. The head of Hebrew and Jewish studies at UCL was a Russian Orthodox Christian, John Klier, for years.</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/29/fear-in-oxford/comment-page-2/#comment-497909</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 13:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hurryupharry.org/?p=36860#comment-497909</guid>
		<description>No, not in your case Joseph.  And as you clearly understand, since this represents an internal decision about personal beliefs, it is (and this part IS by definition) a decision to &quot;abandon community.&quot;  There is no reason to pity people who choose a different path, nor is there any reason to disparage them, as long as they keep to themselves.  Surely, this must be easy for you to understand.  The stance you take is a provocative one, and your stance of meek naivety, or whatever, comes off as yucky and grandiose, especially from a Jewish-Christian historical perspective.  You want everything, and you want everyone to give it to you.  I&#039;m sorry, but this just seems ridiculous.  Jews for Jesus don&#039;t pass the giggle test, and your &quot;persecution&quot; is petty from a Jewish perspective.  Other than as a idiosyncratic intellectual excercise, you are merely unimportant and silly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, not in your case Joseph.  And as you clearly understand, since this represents an internal decision about personal beliefs, it is (and this part IS by definition) a decision to &#8220;abandon community.&#8221;  There is no reason to pity people who choose a different path, nor is there any reason to disparage them, as long as they keep to themselves.  Surely, this must be easy for you to understand.  The stance you take is a provocative one, and your stance of meek naivety, or whatever, comes off as yucky and grandiose, especially from a Jewish-Christian historical perspective.  You want everything, and you want everyone to give it to you.  I&#8217;m sorry, but this just seems ridiculous.  Jews for Jesus don&#8217;t pass the giggle test, and your &#8220;persecution&#8221; is petty from a Jewish perspective.  Other than as a idiosyncratic intellectual excercise, you are merely unimportant and silly.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph W</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/29/fear-in-oxford/comment-page-2/#comment-497895</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 13:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hurryupharry.org/?p=36860#comment-497895</guid>
		<description>Cannot belief in Jesus be a similarly internal spiritual decision which doesn&#039;t lead to someone abandoning their community and beloved family members? I know of many Jews who keep their beliefs secret for precisely this fear. These facts may be used as missionary propaganda, I understand, but it is also in practice a real situation which many people find themselves in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cannot belief in Jesus be a similarly internal spiritual decision which doesn&#8217;t lead to someone abandoning their community and beloved family members? I know of many Jews who keep their beliefs secret for precisely this fear. These facts may be used as missionary propaganda, I understand, but it is also in practice a real situation which many people find themselves in.</p>
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		<title>By: Tarquin</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/29/fear-in-oxford/comment-page-2/#comment-497884</link>
		<dc:creator>Tarquin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 12:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hurryupharry.org/?p=36860#comment-497884</guid>
		<description>&quot;p.s. As one who lives in the modern world, I hope you are aware that “ethnicity” isn’t all that important or interesting.&quot;

I can&#039;t be &#039;aware&#039; of this, because I disagree that it is. That&#039;s only your personal opinion, even if you are desperately attempting to pass it off as some law of nature.
Hint: ethnicity does not mean &#039;racial bloodline&#039;. It includes culture in all its manifold manifestations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;p.s. As one who lives in the modern world, I hope you are aware that “ethnicity” isn’t all that important or interesting.&#8221;</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t be &#8216;aware&#8217; of this, because I disagree that it is. That&#8217;s only your personal opinion, even if you are desperately attempting to pass it off as some law of nature.<br />
Hint: ethnicity does not mean &#8216;racial bloodline&#8217;. It includes culture in all its manifold manifestations.</p>
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		<title>By: Tarquin</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/29/fear-in-oxford/comment-page-2/#comment-497883</link>
		<dc:creator>Tarquin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 12:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hurryupharry.org/?p=36860#comment-497883</guid>
		<description>&quot;If you get to make up what a Jew is, then Joseph gets to make up what a Jewish Christian is.&quot;

You seem hugely confused. I am ethnically Jewish. That is a simple fact. Neither I nor even you can change this.

&quot;If you’re an atheist, then why are you disputing theology?&quot;

I grew up in a religious household. I know about these things at least as much as you do.

&quot;You seem confused, when the answers to these questions are fairly simple.&quot;

Then how come you manage to post such nonsense about the topic?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If you get to make up what a Jew is, then Joseph gets to make up what a Jewish Christian is.&#8221;</p>
<p>You seem hugely confused. I am ethnically Jewish. That is a simple fact. Neither I nor even you can change this.</p>
<p>&#8220;If you’re an atheist, then why are you disputing theology?&#8221;</p>
<p>I grew up in a religious household. I know about these things at least as much as you do.</p>
<p>&#8220;You seem confused, when the answers to these questions are fairly simple.&#8221;</p>
<p>Then how come you manage to post such nonsense about the topic?</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/29/fear-in-oxford/comment-page-2/#comment-497828</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 10:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hurryupharry.org/?p=36860#comment-497828</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;those who convert to other religions do more than just accept new religious beliefs. They publicly reject all of us, four thousand years of history, family, and worst of all, we lose their children.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I agree.  Especially when conversion is to one of the &quot;replacement&quot; theologies like Christianity and Islam.  But they&#039;re still Jews.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;those who convert to other religions do more than just accept new religious beliefs. They publicly reject all of us, four thousand years of history, family, and worst of all, we lose their children.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I agree.  Especially when conversion is to one of the &#8220;replacement&#8221; theologies like Christianity and Islam.  But they&#8217;re still Jews.</p>
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		<title>By: Anat</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/29/fear-in-oxford/comment-page-2/#comment-497799</link>
		<dc:creator>Anat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 06:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hurryupharry.org/?p=36860#comment-497799</guid>
		<description>Being an atheist does not make one less Jewish.  My husband is an atheist and he is the best Jew I know.  He just doesn&#039;t believe in a divine Creator being.  In my opinion, that is between God and him, and is not my business - I have enough to worry about with my own soul, as I am not nearly as good a person as my husband.

My husband is the Jewish son of Jewish parents, married to a Jewish wife born to Jewish parents, and is the father of a Jewish daughter and a Jewish son.  The difference between my husband (and probably Tarquin) and this Argove is that my husband has never converted to anything else. 

She made a positive decision to change her religion.  Being an atheist is a matter of private belief, whereas a formal conversion to a different religion is a public rejection of the first religion (no matter what convolutions the Jews for Jesus oxymoronites try to conjure up), and, in the case of Judaism, a rejection of an ethnicity, a people, and our history.

When the lady in my congregation whom I mentioned above became Jewish, she became, not only religiously Jewish, but joined us as a member of our people as well, with all of the good and bad which comes with that.  Our history became her history, our life, her life, just as Ruth joined Naomi.

In the same way, I think, for most Jews, those who convert to other religions do more than just accept new religious beliefs.  They publicly reject all of us, four thousand years of history, family, and worst of all, we lose their children.  It is really hard to accept, even when you believe that the convert is sincere in their religious conviction, and not just converting for the express purpose of rejecting us, and using what they know about Judaism and Jews as a club against us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being an atheist does not make one less Jewish.  My husband is an atheist and he is the best Jew I know.  He just doesn&#8217;t believe in a divine Creator being.  In my opinion, that is between God and him, and is not my business &#8211; I have enough to worry about with my own soul, as I am not nearly as good a person as my husband.</p>
<p>My husband is the Jewish son of Jewish parents, married to a Jewish wife born to Jewish parents, and is the father of a Jewish daughter and a Jewish son.  The difference between my husband (and probably Tarquin) and this Argove is that my husband has never converted to anything else. </p>
<p>She made a positive decision to change her religion.  Being an atheist is a matter of private belief, whereas a formal conversion to a different religion is a public rejection of the first religion (no matter what convolutions the Jews for Jesus oxymoronites try to conjure up), and, in the case of Judaism, a rejection of an ethnicity, a people, and our history.</p>
<p>When the lady in my congregation whom I mentioned above became Jewish, she became, not only religiously Jewish, but joined us as a member of our people as well, with all of the good and bad which comes with that.  Our history became her history, our life, her life, just as Ruth joined Naomi.</p>
<p>In the same way, I think, for most Jews, those who convert to other religions do more than just accept new religious beliefs.  They publicly reject all of us, four thousand years of history, family, and worst of all, we lose their children.  It is really hard to accept, even when you believe that the convert is sincere in their religious conviction, and not just converting for the express purpose of rejecting us, and using what they know about Judaism and Jews as a club against us.</p>
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		<title>By: freddie</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/29/fear-in-oxford/comment-page-2/#comment-497747</link>
		<dc:creator>freddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 22:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hurryupharry.org/?p=36860#comment-497747</guid>
		<description>&quot;Becoming an Anglican isn’t really a matter of belief, it’s a matter of saying that you don’t really want to be associated with Jews any more...&quot;

Why is it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Becoming an Anglican isn’t really a matter of belief, it’s a matter of saying that you don’t really want to be associated with Jews any more&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Why is it?</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/29/fear-in-oxford/comment-page-2/#comment-497740</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hurryupharry.org/?p=36860#comment-497740</guid>
		<description>p.s. As one who lives in the modern world, I hope you are aware that &quot;ethnicity&quot; isn&#039;t all that important or interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s. As one who lives in the modern world, I hope you are aware that &#8220;ethnicity&#8221; isn&#8217;t all that important or interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2010/07/29/fear-in-oxford/comment-page-2/#comment-497739</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hurryupharry.org/?p=36860#comment-497739</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Tough cheese. I am ethnically Jewish, I live in the modern world, and I don’t give a flying rodent for ‘Jewish law’. I don’t accept its jurisdiction. I am a Jew, and I am an atheist.&lt;/i&gt;

If you get to make up what a Jew is, then Joseph gets to make up what a Jewish Christian is.  If you&#039;re an atheist, then why are you disputing theology?  You seem confused, when the answers to these questions are fairly simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Tough cheese. I am ethnically Jewish, I live in the modern world, and I don’t give a flying rodent for ‘Jewish law’. I don’t accept its jurisdiction. I am a Jew, and I am an atheist.</i></p>
<p>If you get to make up what a Jew is, then Joseph gets to make up what a Jewish Christian is.  If you&#8217;re an atheist, then why are you disputing theology?  You seem confused, when the answers to these questions are fairly simple.</p>
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