Yep, you did say that. Then you said this:

There are moderates in the Muslim community but they are the ones that don’t believe.

You claim this is was simply the presentation of another argument, but you’ve since conceded that your own position is a “subtle variant” of this anyway. How “subtle” you don’t say, but these are all variations on the theme of ‘the only good Muslim is a bad Muslim’, in that the less likely they are to follow the tenets of Islam, the more agreeable they’ll be to you.

It is not a choice between people who Believe and people who do not. But a spectrum of grey. People down the Friday Muslim end tend to be moderate. People at the Wahhabi end don’t.

This means nothing. You’re simply saying that moderates are moderate and extremists are extreme. This is hardly a truisim restricted to adherents of Islam, is it?

SMFS, I said I’d happily retract if you clarified and I will. But I’m not comfortable with, “There are moderates in the Muslim community but they are the ones that don’t believe” or any variation thereof, especially if it’s merely “subtle”. It indicates a belief that nominal Muslims are the moderates but *actual* Muslims are, by definition, incapable of being moderates. As if the moment one starts actually *being* a Muslim as opposed to calling oneself a Muslim, varying degrees of extremism are inevitable.

If you want to distance youself from this, you can do. If you choose not to – which is of course your prerogative – then how different am I supposed to assume your own position is, given you admit your own view is only a subtle variation of this bigotry?

Like I say, I will retract and apologize if you make it clear that your comment “Well I don’t believe there are no moderate Muslims” applies to practising as well as plastic Muslims.

“My grocer told me…”

I know a bit about Islam having been born a Muslim and spending the first part of my life living in Iran. And I am able to do something that you will never be able to do.

Say “Salaam Alaikum” and have a discussion with a Muslim as another ‘Muslim’.

Believe me Muslims, especially devout Muslims, are very slippery when it comes to answering questions about their beliefs.

Perhaps your grocer was sincere. But don’t take that for granted. It is simple good manners to avoid giving offence to someone you’re serving in a shop. A racist shopkeeper would never openly discuss his bigotry to a black customer. He’d probably say how much he liked black people. But his discussions with another racist would be very different.

And a Muslim will often say things to me, another ‘Muslim’ that they wouldn’t say to you.

Stop being so naïve Felix.

Muslims know nothing about Judaism or Christianity, only the bullshit that Mohammad said about them because Mohammad said that the scriptures are lies and that God hate the Christians and Jews for changing his words.

To actually study anything about Christianity or Judaism would be to study these lies and to be a heretic.

No, Muslims know nothing at all about Jesus. And I say that as a non-christian. I “have no dog in this fight”.. But I know an obvious lie when I hear one. How can “Jesus be an important prophet” when Muslims aren’t allowed to read his words?

Muslims give lip service to Jesus, but they never read the scriptures.

That was my point. You missed what I meant entirely.

” the “Jesus is a very important prophet” stance is” what any Mulsim would say.

I asked a friend about this in the middle of a meeting. She said “yes, but he didn’t die”, neatly summarising a key difference between Christianity and Islam in five words.

What a hoot!

I don’t know, how about in the obvious sense of the simple meaning of the plain English text that is in front of you? Which would start by the simple acknowledgement that I think there are moderate Muslims in the world. It might then go on to notice that what you are quoting now is a report by me of an argument often put on the internet, not necessarily my own opinion. But I am happy to admit that a subtle variant of this is my own opinion so that would not be worth your time. But finally you might like to dump the simplistic Black and White world you live in and think about what I actually said. It is not a choice between people who Believe and people who do not. But a spectrum of grey. People down the Friday Muslim end tend to be moderate. People at the Wahhabi end don’t.

“If you say the only moderates in the Muslim community are unbelievers, then you are logically proscribing the possibility someone can at once be Muslim and also moderate. You’ve decided the two are mutually exclusive.”

No, you have decided to claim I have decided the two are mutually exclusive. I have done no such thing. If is such a little word isn’t it? So easy to pass by its importance in sentences like this one.

“Maybe you didn’t mean this, but it’s a perfectly valid interpretation of what you’ve written. ”

In a pig’s ear it is. As I said, I don’t need to lie.

“If you’d like to clarify, I’ll happily retract. As things stand currently, I see no reason to do so and to claim I’m guilty of “outright lies” is itself an outright lie given the sentence of yours I quote above.”

Your problems, whether it is reading comprehension or manners, is not really my problem is it? It is not a valid interpretation of what I said. No simple flat denial of what I actually did say can be. It is an outright and open lie. I clearly said there are moderate Muslims, you stated I denied it. There is no other valid description of your words.

There are moderates in the Muslim community but they are the ones that don’t believe.

What other way is there of interpreting this than that you believe those people self-identifying as Muslim but who are moderate aren’t actually Muslims at all?

“Muslim” is a declaration of faith, not ethnicity. If you say the only moderates in the Muslim community are unbelievers, then you are logically proscribing the possibility someone can at once be Muslim and also moderate. You’ve decided the two are mutually exclusive.

Maybe you didn’t mean this, but it’s a perfectly valid interpretation of what you’ve written. If you’d like to clarify, I’ll happily retract. As things stand currently, I see no reason to do so and to claim I’m guilty of “outright lies” is itself an outright lie given the sentence of yours I quote above.

I may be getting more extreme…

There’s no “may” about it, bub.

If Muslim leaders promoted ecumenicalism, Islam would evaporate. They never have and they never will.