Harry's Place

You are right – we need to kill all pirates on sight to stop the Islamification of the world and terrorist attacks from killing us.

Then we can perhaps sort out the giant squids funding Hamas in Gaza.

This report suggests they whipped some pirate hide:

http://www.expatica.com/es/news/community_focus/Somali-pirates-attack-French-military-flagship-by-mistake_57035.html

Oh, I know whom the dude up top is!

its a shame the livelihood of the Somali fishermen was destroyed by foreign fishing fleets because they perhaps wouldn’t have turned to piracy if this hadn’t happened. There’s blood on them fish fingers…

Maybe we should just go back to the mutton wars… there’s good eating up in those Somali hills.

We need to start killing pirates in large numbers, or the problem will simply grow and grow until it is unmanageable.

Absolutely.

Didn’t the lamentable Johann Hari write an artcle claiming that, surprise, surprise, it was all our fault?

How long before the SWP starts saying ‘We’re all pirates’?

I agree that the problem has to be sorted out but there’s hardly owt else to do in Somalia to earn a living except through piracy. The country’s a total basketcase, anarchic, a libertarian paradise.

Can’t we be tough on piracy, tough on the causes of piracy by finding some sort of legitimate economy activity for them to engage in whilst blockading the ports?

Somalia continuing as a failed state with no economy to speak of is only going to make it more vulnerable to an Islamist takeover.

I’m not sure about Hari, but I know Chomsky has.

Yes, it is those Jihadists again.

Ironically, due to EU fishing quotas. The majority of EU fishing fleets are now registered with the Seychelles or any other shady Indian Ocean country to fish along these areas.

What do you call white people and Chinese people when they steal resources from countries and give nothing back but insults back?

Would you have?
A: Slap them
B: Burn them
C: Ask them to rape you even more

I personally refuse to take sides in this issue. Whether you are a civilian or not, that area should be avoided and peace given to them.

The country’s a total basketcase, anarchic, a libertarian paradise.

What’s libertarian about anarchy and taking people’s stuff? Sounds more like Detroit.

All Somalia needs is a convoy from Galloway, surely?

What’s libertarian about anarchy and taking people’s stuff? Sounds more like Detroit.

Watch this, Mesquito, I’m sure you’ll enjoy it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDv4sYwjO0

Seriously though – Brett, how is “killing pirates in large numbers” really going to stabilise Somalia and protect it from the influence of the Islamists?

The real idiocy of this is the lack of initiative of the UK government in taking action to amend the law to allow trained approved armed guards to be placed on merchant shipping in potentially dangerous seas.

Instead, hugely expensive naval patrols paid for out of our taxes are sent to police open seas areas so vast that the chances of catching and intercepting a high speed motorboat pirate attack are virtually zero. It’s the equivalent of sending out three armed policemen on foot patrol to prevent burglaries across the whole of the UK.

And when the inevitable happens and the ships are captured and held to ransom, insurance companies, a substantial proportion of which are part of the UK economy pay out ransoms in the tens of millions of pounds. Which of course we end up paying for as consumers out of higher insurance premiums and shop prices.

The cost to shipping companies of carrying approved trained armed guards (like the armed sky marshals who now ride aircraft) would be minimal compared with the costs of paying sky-high ransoms. And armed sky marshals plus airport security have virtually eliminated skyjacking of planes.

Piracy will come to an end when it meets 24 hour armed response. It will keep growing as long as the naval patrol defence model continues to operate.

better if they armed the fishing trawlers: they could shoot the african fishermen before they even think about becoming pirates.

It must be wonderful for everything to be the result of European action. Sure our fishing boats are adding to it, but even Africans have moral agency.

PS I don’t eat fish so I don’t feel guilty for this.

You really are a blood thirsty sod Brett. As I recall on a previous thread about this, non-lethal deterrants can be used, a bit of barbed wire to stop boarding and the like.

At the end of the day, you’re simply saying its cheaper to kill people.

As I recall on a previous thread about this, non-lethal deterrants can be used, a bit of barbed wire to stop boarding and the like.

Problem solved!

Deathy – Any pirate will be equipped to deal with barbed wire. All it takes is the grappling hook they’ll have for boarding anyway, and the power of the outboard engine they have to catch the ship anyway.

The sonic thingys can be defeated by ipods, and firehoses aren’t much help unless your crew are ready to be shot at while they man them.

A couple of ex-infantrymen with light machine guns on the other hand will destroy any approaching skiffs and if paid decently are quite capable of ignoring being shot at.

The only solution is to make the risks to pirates outweigh the rewards by a considerable distance. Pirate ports need to be blockaded and the blockade must be ruthlessly enforced. This means that navy ships and aircraft quite literally need to start blowing pirate vessels out of the water. We need to start killing pirates in large numbers, or the problem will simply grow and grow until it is unmanageable

Brett’s quite right. More, the UK government should make clear and public that pirates who attack UK vessels will be hunted down and killed. Also it should be understood that fast boats making deliberate approaches within 400 metres of merchant vessels out to see in certain areas of the Globe, are fair game.

There is the FPGRM (Fleet Protection Group Royal Marines) who train for exactly this sort of thing, including the use of with their well trained maritime sniper teams. FPGRM is a Commando or Battalion sized formation – nearly 600 men – of Commando badged Marines, all Royal Marines excepting the band are Commando trained. As an aside, they also happen to be responsible for protecting the UK’s nuclear weapons.

You have to be a little careful though, you don’t want to kill innocents, but when there is little doubt, just shoot the fuckers. We need to make it a risky venture for the pirates. Presently it isn’t.

It’s very simple; but of course it doesn’t fit into wet-fish liberal mores.

There’s also an argument for giving Merchant ships crews appropriate training and arming them, but this does not square too well with the paranoid British psychosis about armed civilians.

Recent clip of FPGRM on Ops which makes clear some of the problems.

“As I recall on a previous thread about this, non-lethal deterrants can be used, a bit of barbed wire to stop boarding and the like.”

Barbed wire is not a permanent solution. It simply leads to an escalation. The more the pirate gangs have to invest in taking a ship to overcome these complications, the more brutal and ferocious the attacks will ultimately become to make these investments worthwhile.

I agree entirely with Brett’s proposed solution except for the last bit about trying captured pirates before an international criminal court. Summary execution will get the message across far more quickly, and as Red Deathy points out, will also be much cheaper.

Somalia is a violent, anarchic shithole because its barbarian inhabitants have chosen to make it one. They deserve no consideration or sympathy whatsoever from the rest of the world.

Why is Sarah Palin writing under a pseudonym?

Islamic piracy was directly responsible for the development of the United States Navy and for the concepts that allowed for its deployment far from our coasts. After the American Revolution, pirates from the Barbary states (Algiers, Morocco) attacked American shipping off the coast of North Africa in the Mediterranean and took the crews. This piracy against American shipping started in 1784 and finally ended in 1815. The Islamic rulers of these Barbary States demanded payment of tribute from the new country and it was paid, and paid. President Jefferson sent a naval force against the pirates in 1803-05. The Marine Corps were also sent in and after a long overland march, took the city of Tripoli in 1805.

Then Ambassadors Thomas Jefferson and John Adams met with the Ambassador of Tripoli in 1785, to reach a solution to the attacks against American shipping and crews:

“When they inquired by what right the Barbary states preyed upon American shipping, enslaving both crews and passengers, America’s two foremost envoys were informed that “it was written in the Koran, that all Nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make Slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise).”

The Barbary piracy was based upon the doctrine of Islam, calling for endless war against the unbeliever everywhere, including at sea.

Today, we are dealing with the same Islam. Islam is considered perfect, unchangeable, unchallengeable, by adherents. It is the perfect word of the perfect Allah, and carried to the world by the perfect example of humanity for all Muslims to emulate, Mohammed.

The cost to shipping companies of carrying approved trained armed guards (like the armed sky marshals who now ride aircraft) would be minimal compared with the costs of paying sky-high ransoms.

strangely enough, insurance companies are not big fans of allowing guns and armed men on board the ships they insure, due to their tendency to result in insurable losses, and your completely uninformed assessment of the cost of arming, training, certifying, paying and insuring enough armed guards for the 18,000 ships which pass through the Gulf of Aden every year is clearly incorrect. At even $10k a trip, this would be a cost of $180m a year.

Never mind, back to the fantasising about killing people.

“Never mind, back to the fantasising about killing people.”

I doubt merely fantasising will achieve anything.

The pirates and the Islamists hate each other. If you’re sitting in Ely driving a massive car and enjoying the hordes of pirate groupies who flock there, the last person you want to listen to is an old geezer with a scraggly beard telling you to eat dates and live a life of moderation for Allah.
They are probably the surest proof against Somalia actually becoming another Islamist hideaway.

I did somewhat buy in to Michael Savage’s solution from some months ago when the Americans were hijacked.

In response to the ransom demands he said that the USA should just go to their villages and bomb the hell out of them as a warning. Keep bombing villages until they stop. They will stop.

It seems barbaric but how else do you deal with people who attack you without cause.

In a sense, Israel’s response to Hamas in Gaza and immediate retaliation against any rockets seems to have worked. When you are weak they take advantage.

“At the end of the day, you’re simply saying its cheaper to kill people.”

No, he’s also saying that in the long run, it’s more effective. And he’s right.

“The pirates and the Islamists hate each other.”

Please leave, your informed opinions are not welcome here. Unless your only experience of Somalia is reading about it on Wikipedia, or you have a real hard-on for killing, you have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

“a cost of $180m a year”

Sorry, but this is typical Left wing nonsense. You cannot put a price on killing Muslims.

I am in complete accord with this article. However I use RSS and Google Reader, so all blog posts look the same, and just had the uncanny experience of getting all the way to the bottom of the article before realising that I was NOT on Melanie Phillips’ blog.

Serious question, Brett – if you really do think that so many people in the world need killing, why don’t you join up? HM Armed Forces are recruiting.

“Serious question, Brett – if you really do think that so many people in the world need killing, why don’t you join up?”

Because I don’t think I’d be very good at it. There are loads of jobs I think are worthwhile and important but I lack the skill, aptitude or interest to do them.

But perhaps you can explain why you don’t think merchant sailors and the other workers who staff cargo vessels don’t deserve to be protected from armed bandits.

The Captain should know what he’s talking about but I’m not sure of the validity of his comments with regard to British Law and the arming of his ship.

The only Boularibank I can find is Antigua and Barbuda flagged.

garry day
12 November 2009, 12:20 pm
You are right – we need to kill all pirates on sight to stop the Islamification of the world and terrorist attacks from killing us.
Then we can perhaps sort out the giant squids funding Hamas in Gaza.

Garry,

You’re absolutely pathetic.

I have a lot of sympathy with a much more hardline approach. The idea that you put naval assets there with the most sophisticated weaponary in the world and then say you can’t use them is frankly risible.

That said I am concerned that an escalation of violence from ship owners (say by carrying armed mercenaries) would be met with a similar escalation from the pirates. Yes, lots of pirates would be killed in failed attacks but if any succeded they wouldn’t have any motivation to keep a crew alive, especially if some of the pirates had been killed or wounded in the assault. The shipowners are much more interested in ransoming back the ship and cargo than the crew so it’s likely that the ransom would be paid whether the crew was alive or not.

We could take away the reason for the piracy by never paying a ransom for a ship that’s taken. In that case the piracy would become pointless. Of course this would probably be too expensive.

Didn’t the lamentable Johann Hari write an artcle claiming that, surprise, surprise, it was all our fault?

Well, the lamentable j.r. is saying so now.

I’d like to see the pirates try to attack an Israeli ship. They will soon be given a lesson they won’t forget. And the weak, degenerate West ditto.

Because I don’t think I’d be very good at it

well, why do you think you’re so great at telling actual naval commanders how to do their jobs, then?

Right, so barbarism rules the waves.

I can’t remember my sources, but I seem to recall it was a sea captain who said that using violence was undesirable and unnecessary.

Harry’s place – Freedom, if it means anything, means killing the people who get in the way of profits, without any semblance of law.

But perhaps you can explain why you don’t think merchant sailors and the other workers who staff cargo vessels don’t deserve to be protected from armed bandits.

Because it doesn’t affect him personally, pontificating in some dingy pub in Islington or Tooting. Real working class types, such as sailors, are expendable and barely appear on the radar of avantgarde socialist heros such as as HP Logic, dsquared and their ilk. Plus some of them don’t even have brown skin.

Most of the merchant fleet are relatively slow, lumbering vessels, in comparison with the smaller, more agile craft used by the pirates. In addition, the pirates carry substantial firepower. So armed guards on the big ships need to carry even greater firepower. This would result in pirate launches being reduced to matchsticks, should they contravene an exclusion zone around the ship. (It might be the case that supertankers carrying volatile bulk cargo would not be suitable for such a response system.)

But whatever solution is chosen, the pirates will always come back with some other method of attack, and we will have to be ready for that.

Somalia is not the only area of persistent and increasing pirate activity for the blue water cruiser particularly ocean sailing is becoming increasingly dangerous.

The waters of the Philipine and Indonesian archipelagos and the straights of Molucca remain dangerous.

The Carribean is becoming increasingly dangerous and I recently sailed in high activity pirate waters between Trinidad and Aruba off the coast of Venezuela.

In fact it is often young local, half hearted, fisherman come crack heads who do a bit of piracy in Venezuelan coastal waters and an elderly American man on a neighbouring boat in the Marina I was in was shot and killed at point blank range by supposed fisherman asking for water as they stopped on a near shore island to clean the propeller.

The only thing that stopped the crew of both sail boats (elderly Americans sailing their dream) from being tied up tortured for their card pin nos and killed while the pirates spend the night stripping the boats was that the other boat was armed (God bless Americans).

He returned heavy fire from several pump action shotguns (highly recommended) and drove his tender over the heads of some men fallen into the water.

He kept this up all night with a barrage of flares while the Venezuelan coastguards in the usual response of the Chavista regimes response to anti-civilian armed violence and robbery was as usual precisely nothing.

Now to sail out from the Venezuelan coast you must sail alert leaving at first light and continuously for at least 18-24 hours before you have outsailed the shore hugging lazy coke head pirates.

I am afraid to say that I do not consider myself bound by British merchant vessel law in those waters.

Any kind of fouling wire (preferably electrified) or nets to impede boarding is highly sensible as is a a very secure cabin door (very rare) that cannot be shot or macheted through.

The problem with carrying weapons always of course, is that you must know how, and be prepared to use them, but without them now being boarded by armed assailants, the outcome for ordinary small civilian crews is likely to be pretty grim and the nation of origin’s response minimal.

Perhaps I should not say exactly what defensive precautions we now take in those waters but it is worth remembering that there is no
limit to the number of flare pistols allowed on civilian vessels.

If these are fired directly at or down into a pirate ship rather than high into the air the effect is quite impressive.

As this situation has now, unfortunately, made Venezuela a very good place to buy a boat I shall be returning shortly to pirate waters and keep you posted about the new Pirates of the Caribbean.

It is actually pretty ironic that the Island one must now head to on short shifts and continuous sailing, to be out of reach of pirate attacks is the Tortuga of Captain Jack Sparrow film fame.

I do actually say aaaaargh quite a lot, in a grim rather than comic sort of way, to the incomprehension of my Venezuelan friends.

The numbers of pirates are relatively view but Oceans are large and navigation especially at night difficult.

I do’t think there are large numbers of pirates to kill.

And I am all for alternative income generating activity but in my direct experience I have to say that the drawer to piracy is less desperation rather than a certain idle disdain for harder ways to make a living than given by a disregard for law and the lives and properties of others, a strong sense of greed and entitlement and a sense of easy pickings with impunity.

It is the impunity that has to end and this does not have to be the result of a high body count but of some fairly accurate measure of the probability of unpleasant consequences.

Sad to say I would never have dreamed previously of being armed for blue water cruising, now I would not consider it without.

That’s right, and Red Deathly too. So what if a few sailors get murdered by pirates? I mean, how many of those sailors even read Das Kapital?

Hilarious, wonderful stuff, even by the whacky races, thought processes that pass for argument and intellectual enquiry on your site. You have made a link between Captain Jack Sparrow, Somalia pirates and no doubt will probably be pointing the finger at working class kids in Bradford next, as being responsible for increase in Somalia piracy.

How about some bloke once worked in a shop, and sold a tomato that once went into a salad that was once served in a restaurant, that was once visited by a member of respect, who once was on a platform with somebody, who once went to Palestine, and once met a women whose cousin twice removed read a book on Palestinian rights by Edward Said and was a supporter of a free Palestine.

Well the shop owner obviously 5th columnist Islamist must be exposed by the brave, fearless anonymous folk at HP. You lot, very dodgy are summed very well here. http://www.thesamosa.co.uk/

Bas bas

I think some people here have spent too much time watching pirates of the Caribbean or reading Treasure Island. Its all so simple, just tool up jolly jack tar and he’ll get the job done. One reason why this approach isn’t being implemented is that it is believed that it would simply provide more incentive to the pirates to upgrade their already formidable armament. The other reason is that the shipping companies aren’t necessarily run by dyspeptic red faced daily mail reading morons.

Gordon,

it’s concern for the sailors make me chary of the idea of simply tooling up and slaughtering pirates.

But, lets apply this logic to teh streets of Britain, why not simply hunt and gun down the villains, eh, get a few good old boys with shotguns to roam our streets, killing any scruffy bugger who goes near the gated communities, because property is way more important than life…

“well, why do you think you’re so great at telling actual naval commanders how to do their jobs, then?”

I wouldn’t dream of it. I believe we are talking about a political decision here, not a military one.

>> Serious question, Brett – if you really do think that so many people in the world need killing, why don’t you join up? HM Armed Forces are recruiting.

Where’s Sackcloth, Nick and Bert when we need to smack a smug git in the face?

It’s worth bearing in mind that those who do the actual pirating on the seas tend to be low down on the piratical totem pole, and are considered utterly expendable by those at the top.

Once again, pirates need to be treated as they once were

What period of history are you referring to there?

If you had $180m (at a very, very conservative estimate) to spend on improving the safety of merchant shipping, there is no way on earth that you would spend it on mythical armed guards. The idea is about as silly as “blockading pirate ports” (name me one of these “pirate ports”).

Seriously, Brett, you clearly don’t have a clue what you are talking about, so pontificating about piracy in Africa is definitely one of the things you are not very good at. On the other hand, HM Armed Forces have all manner of different jobs within them, from radio operators to drivers to IT specialists to humble galley cooks. If you can peel a spud, you could potentially be doing more to put your military fantasies into action than you are on this blog. If you can’t peel a spud, the washing up needs done as well.

I’m disappointed not to have read any ‘Ahaarh, me hearties’ type comments.

Being a bit of a landlubber I’m no expert in maritime law but would have thought it would be a relatively simple process to reregister vessels with flags that do allow armed guards. I’d have though a few guys who know their way around automatic weapons would be able deal most of the pirates

so this is written by someone with no links to the shipping industry and no knowledge of somalia, who’s done no research into maritime law or indeed into any of the issues beyond listening to one BBC report, and none of the commenters have any idea of the legality of the myriad killings being suggested.

strikes me you might want to go away and think a bit harder about it all and maybe leave the computer game-style fantasies to your desktop instead of postingthem on here.

” The idea is about as silly as “blockading pirate ports” (name me one of these “pirate ports”).”

How about three

” If you can peel a spud, you could potentially be doing more to put your military fantasies into action than you are on this blog.”

Oh do piss off. Carry on standing by as judges and legislators trying to restore civil society are murdered and as warlords increasingly take control of the country, financed by piracy, robbing Somali civilians of any hope of a future other than one lived under the gun.

FFS, it can’t be long before we see “Solidarity with Somalia’s Socialist Worker Pirates” march hitting the streets of London.

“strikes me you might want to go away and think a bit harder about it all and maybe leave the computer game-style fantasies to your desktop instead of postingthem on here.”

Explain to me what is so ‘fantastical’ about increasing the naval presence in the region and taking a more aggressive stance towards repelling pirates? Do you think that people who launch themselves in boats, armed with automatic weapons and grenade launchers should not be shot at? What exactly is promblematic for you?

Why is a navy vessel “chasing away” pirates instead of killing them? [...] All that will happen is that these “repelled” pirates will attack again tomorrow.

except that, if you look at your very own link, you can see that the policy of ‘chasing them away as opposed to shooting’ resulted in… the arrest of the entire crew of one of the pirate ships.

clearly the approach doesn’t work at all. I mean, that same crew will come back ‘tomorrow’ and attack another defenceless ship – but – wait – look again at the link – that incident actually happened a month ago.

can you maybe do some research next time to find out if your hypotheticals bear any resemblance to reality? I know it’s easier to make stuff up as opposed to read up on it, but this is pretty weak writing.

After reading this article, I’m sure now all right-thinking people here in HP agree with me in saying that ninjas are the only solution for the pirate problem.

‘But, lets apply this logic to teh streets of Britain, why not simply hunt and gun down the villains, eh, get a few good old boys with shotguns to roam our streets, killing any scruffy bugger who goes near the gated communities, because property is way more important than life…’

Brett’s pretty much supported that attitude here, particularly where it involves attacking drug dealers, burglers, etc.

Too much Michael Winner as a kid.

frog:

Arresting pirates at sea and successfully prosecuting them makes dealing with “armed militants” captured on terra firma look like child’s play.

There’s a matter of legal jurisdiction in the first place. And, if successful in prosecution, the prosecuting nation may be stuck with the convicts after release from imprisonment or subject to refugee claims.

Re the Bas Bas comment, and the link to HP bashing on the Samosa site – Morgoth will particularly enjoy the high praise for Sunny Hundal – all Brett has done in this piece is restate the traditional law of the sea, and yet this is seen as “Hilarious, wonderful stuff, even by the whacky races, thought processes that pass for argument and intellectual enquiry on your site.”

Here’s a commentary on this aspect of maritime law from Wikipedia:

Perhaps the oldest of the laws of the sea is the prohibition of piracy, as the peril of being set upon by pirates, who are motivated by their own greed, rather than by national allegiance, is shared by the vessels and mariners of all nations, and thus represents a crime upon all nations; as such, since the time of the Ancient Romans, pirates have been held to be individuals waging a private warfare, a private campaign of sack and pillage, against not only their victims, but against all nations, and thus, pirates hold the peculiar status of being regarded as “hostis humani generis”, the enemies of mankind.

Since piracy anywhere is a peril to every mariner and ship everywhere, it is held to be the universal right and the universal duty of all nations, regardless of whether their ships have been beset by the particular pirate captured, to capture, try by a regularly constituted court-martial or admiralty court (in extreme circumstances, by means of a drumhead court-martial convened by the officers of the capturing ship), and, if found guilty, to execute the pirate via means of hanging from the yard-arm of the capturing ship, an authoritative Custom of the Sea.

Though summary battlefield punishment, meaning hanging without trial, was conducted by certain nations at certain times with regards to pirates, it was regarded as not preferable and somewhat irregular (but completely lawful, if the attenuation of due process was dictated by urgent military necessity), as individuals captured with pirates could potentially have a defense to charges of piracy, such as coercion. For instance, in early 1831, the 250-strong crew of a pirate captured off Ascension was brought to said isle and summarily hanged, as they were acting in a rebellious manner and threatening to overthrow the 30-man crew of HM Falcon, a British sloop-of-war, who took them captive. As the summary punishment in this case was due to military necessity, rather than whim, there was clear evidence of the offense, and it was done proximate in time and location to the battlefield, it was merely irregular, and not a violation of the custom of the sea.

In these more civilized times, much of the customary law of the sea has been codified. Piracy is the broadest exception to the principle that a ship on the high seas is subject to the protection of, and jurisdiction of, her flag state.

Piracy is considered an offense of universal jurisdiction, such that any state may board and seize a ship engaged in piracy, and any state may try a pirate and impose sanctions according to that state’s own law.

Piracy is defined in Article 101 of the 1982 Convention on the Law of the Sea, and the 1958 Convention on the High Seas also regulates this exercise of jurisdiction.

The only radical thing that Brett has said is that pirates should be tried in an international court.

On the basis of the above paras, there’s no obligation at all to convene an international court – national law and courts apply, and all states are already empowered to take necessary actions.

>>> Didn’t the lamentable Johann Hari write an artcle claiming that, surprise, surprise, it was all our fault?

No, he argued that many Somalis have turned to piracy because economic and political factors deprived them of their livelihoods.

Which of course is ridiculous. As any reader of Harrys Place knows, they became pirates because they are filthy islamist vermin who should be exterminated.

Ah, trust j.r. to come up with the standard smug Islington warrior response:

The other reason is that the shipping companies aren’t necessarily run by dyspeptic red faced daily mail reading morons.

I have never read the Daily Mail in my life, but I suppose when idiots like you are at a loss for an argument, they have to fall back on either (a) Blame the Jews, or (b) Blame the Daily Mail.

it would simply provide more incentive to the pirates to upgrade their already formidable armament

Bollocks. The RN can always be one (or ten) jumps ahead of the pirates, as long as there is an ounce of political will. How many Harriers will the pirates ever get their hands on, wonder boy?

Lynne, read up on the laws relating to piracy. It IS child’s play, as long as the chinless wonders laughingly known as ‘our government’ aren’t scared of their own shadows – or of EU penpushers.

Red Deathly: “…because property is way more important than life…”

Of course life’s more important than property.

With one worldwide exception:

when we’re talking about (alleged) Palestinian property on one hand, and Jewish lives (for instance, the lives of Israeli bus passengers) on the other. Palestinian property is way more important than Jewish lives…

Who, for chrissakes, is holding people and threatening their lives in order to expropriate their fucking property? Red Deathy is sick sick sick.

The biggest issue these faux bleeding hearts are missing is the devastation caused to Somali society. The richer and more powerful these pirate barons get, the stronger their grip. They prevent the re-emergance of civil government after decades of civil war, which means the state cannot reassert itself and rebuild both social institutions and the economy. The latter will become more and more dependent on piracy and associated crimes (arms smuggling, for example) and many young men will see being drafted into the pirate ranks as their only option. Any humanitarian would want to see this terrible (yet predictable) trajectory halted and reversed. But it means getting rough with the pirates now.

Hilarious, So these Jihadi pirates are just lame cos they don’t enslave their hostages. I shout Jizya!

We must not fall into the trap of thinking of piracy as merely property crime. The attackers are quite happy to use firearms against crewmen.

We can’t take the risk of a dangerous cargo falling into the hands of pirates either. Because next time the pirates may well be terrorists, the subject may well be a bulk tanker full of LPG, and the object might be the obliteration of a major seaport with tremendous loss of life. You can do much more damage by taking control of a supertanker, than an airliner.

But it means getting rough with the pirates now

and this “increased naval presence” will need people to clean the heads, maintain the computer networks and edit the internal newsletters. Join up, young man!

The richer and more powerful these pirate barons get, the stronger their grip

so logic would say: target them, instead of their underlings.

but you’re not suggesting that.

Some time ago, a Portuguese naval ship prevented a seizure of a commercial ship by pirates and detained them, only to release them again because the Portuguese law does not have any laws against piracy. Both an International treaty on this and (at least) some degree of harmonization of national laws among NATO members is urgent.

No, he argued that many Somalis have turned to piracy because economic and political factors deprived them of their livelihoods.

Ah yes the mantra of the bleeding-heart – and terminally stupid – liberal. Criminals only commit crime ‘cos they have no choice. Bullshit. It’s not economic nor political factors; it’s cultural factors. Some societies resort to violence and murder quicker than others and that’s because their cultural norms place less value on human life and endeavour.

I also love it when terrorism gets blamed on inequality and poverty despite pretty much every terrorist – from West Bank suicide bombers to 9/11 hijackers to 7/7 Tube bombers having university degrees and decent jobs.

It’s dreadfully inconsiderate when the ethnics don’t follow the template laid down by western guilt-ridden socialists, isn’t!

They prevent the re-emergance of civil government after decades of civil war, which means the state cannot reassert itself and rebuild both social institutions and the economy.

According to this, the best chance for rebuilding the state came and went three years ago. But I guess you wouldn’t have that, cos Islamism=terrorism or something.

Personally, I’d have no problem with arming ships against pirates, but I can see where dsquared is coming from. The sight of Brett pulling on his muscle vest and picking up the (metaphorical) heavy artillery is turning into a running joke.

Arrr! Cap’n Dsquared be making ye olde argument that Blackbeard Brett should string up ye blackguards himself and wait afore three tides be passed at ye hangman’s dock!

That be ye rhetorical trick of ye parrot drunk on ye Cap’n Morgan’s rum. There be no coming back against that argument! Full fathom five Brett’s contention lies (etc, etc.)

Some societies resort to violence and murder quicker than others and that’s because their cultural norms place less value on human life and endeavour.

*Picard*

I love hp

Also I sincerely hope that our offshore oil and gas platforms have a lot more security than our merchant fleet seems to have. I know the rigs are fairly sturdy, but I don’t reckon any of them would survive a ramming attack using a fully laden bulk carrier. A terrorist crew would only have to live long enough to set it full speed and point it in the right direction, after that nothing would stop it.

BTW brett the islamists are already in power Sharif Ahmed is Somalias current leader

Gordon Bennet: Calm down. I’m not averse to shooting pirates per se. However the consensus of the military and security types appears to be that this is at best a partial solution and may be counterproductive. The economic and political situation in Somalia is the problem, and it is a bit lame to put that in the “too hard” basket. It isn’t economically viable to turn red sea traffic into a series of ww2 style convoys, so the losers will be the ordinary merchant seamen if this thing escalates further. Frankly I find the whole John Wayne thing on this thread pretty weird.

j.r.
12 November 2009, 7:10 pm

Frankly I find the whole John Wayne thing on this thread pretty weird.

——–

Oh perish the thought that we might ever have to consider defensive measures you find weird.

We have to implement measures which are available to us. And we must not be side-tracked or distracted by pipe dreams about sorting out Somalia first, or extraditing the piracy barons first, because that will get us nowhere. The things we can do, are those things that are unilateral. At sea, we can defend our merchant ships. At home, we can defend our fixed assets. In Somalia, we can do nowt.

“strangely enough, insurance companies are not big fans of allowing guns and armed men on board the ships they insure, due to their tendency to result in insurable losses, ”

That’s a very charitable take on the motives of insurance companies. A more reasonable interpretation is that they are quite happy with high levels of piracy because that allows them to charge high premiums far in excess of actual pay-outs, and efforts to decrease piracy would have an obviously bad effect on profits.

“” If you can peel a spud, you could potentially be doing more to put your military fantasies into action than you are on this blog.”

What an idiot. Soldiers don’t peel potatoes nowadays and haven’t for going on 30 years now. People hire civilians for menial work.

“Seriously, Brett, you clearly don’t have a clue what you are talking about,”

That explains your antagonism towards Brett. You don’t like competition.

and this “increased naval presence” will need people to clean the heads, maintain the computer networks and edit the internal newsletters. Join up, young man!

Do you know anything about the military? Ever been inside a military installation? No, I didn’t think so.
I just love these armchair strategists.

Brett: spot on!

But I guess you wouldn’t have that, cos Islamism=terrorism or something.

And as we know, no terrorist ever has had anything even remotely to do with Islamism. Not one.

j.r., I am perfectly calm. It’s you and your lot going berserk and shouting “Daily Mail! Daily Mail! Once again the imperialists are turning on the poor pirates who are only doing it because they are poor and don’t have broadband”.

The biggest issue these faux bleeding hearts are missing is the devastation caused to Somali society. The richer and more powerful these pirate barons get, the stronger their grip.

Well you hardly mentioned such humanitarian concerns in your original post, instead loosely connecting the pirates with the Islamists (an assertion for which there isn’t much evidence) and getting all worked up about the need to start killing lots of Somalis.

Why not spend a bit more time thinking about how we can help encourage development in Somalia rather than write a frothing-at-the-mouth-post calling for the “killing of pirates in large numbers” which has predictably got the Muslim-hating, gun-loving, brain-neglecting visitors to this blog all worked up in a happy frenzy.

The despicable comments from some of HP’s more moronic readers are unsurprising, but considering that you usually write pretty good stuff about international human rights issues I would have expected something a bit better than this.

Please can we stop calling these poor people “pirates”. It is a derogatory loaded term and Eric Hobsbawm long ago invented the more PC term “social bandits” for a phenomenon which occurs as peasant societies evolve into capitalist states. Besides, as much of the British empire was created with the help of piracy, surely we can say with confidence that we were all pirates once and could quickly become such again if the government takes away the National Child benefit from middle-class folks.

Feel the pain of these poor men who barely have a fast skiff and a mothership (let alone 11 captured vessels and over 200 hostages) between them. Were you or I in their position we would do exactly the same thing. After all, its really just like selling the Big Issue but with extreme violence.

“and getting all worked up about the need to start killing lots of Somalis.”

Lying fucker.

“Why not spend a bit more time thinking about how we can help encourage development in Somalia”

I have. It requires the ruthless supression of the pirate trade first. While piracy is so viable and lucrative that it prompts the killing of judges and legislators that get in the way, there is zero chance of rebuilding civil society.

And as we know, no terrorist ever has had anything even remotely to do with Islamism. Not one.

If you could raise your sights beyond the playground just this once, you’ll see I didn’t say that, or even come close. Not all Islamists are terrorists, just as not all terrorists are Islamists, it’s a bit more complicated.

Or as the article I linked to (and which you made no attempt to reply to) put it:

The Courts had certainly imposed what would be seen in the West as some fairly repressive moral codes. They cracked down on the narcotic qat that rendered half the menfolk senseless, banned sexually explicit films, encouraged women to cover their heads and discouraged Western music and dancing. There had been two public executions. But that was a price most Somalis were happy to pay, and while the Courts’ disparate factions undoubtedly included extremists with dangerous connections and intentions, they also included moderates with whom the West could have done business.

BTW brett the islamists are already in power Sharif Ahmed is Somalias current leader

and

“Not all Islamists are terrorists”

It’s not those ones who are a cause for concern, it’s the al Shabaab, who are of the jihadi variety. Their insurgency is trying to bring down the current government. They currently run training camps for jihadis too, and one of their opperatives was arrested by the Dutch recently suspected of recruiting and fundraising for weapons purchases.

Meanwhile, the pirates recently took a Ukranian ship transporting weapons, including tanks, for ransom. The owners paid up, but how long before the pirates decide to auction such a haul? Won’t it be fun-fun-fun when al Qaida aligned-groups get their hands on tanks or a shipload of missiles?

Smug Islington whatever has got one thing right: he is smug, and he certainly is a whatever.

Human rights blah … blah …

Of course, to people like him, the human rights of those murdered by the scum referred to elsewhere as ’social bandits’ are of secondary importance.

It’s not those ones who are a cause for concern, it’s the al Shabaab, who are of the jihadi variety. Their insurgency is trying to bring down the current government.

So presumably strengthening the current govt is an important part of our policy? It’s not just about killing pirates, right?

Almost exactly a year ago, an Indian frigate operating off the coast of Somalia sank a pirate mother ship which had opened fire first. The Indian navy was seen at the time as the only one prepared to stand up to the pirates. Is that still the case? If so, one solution that was recommended at the time might still work: assemble an international fleet of warships, put them under Indian command, have them all fly the Indian flag, and then go in and get it over and done with.

So presumably strengthening the current govt is an important part of our policy? It’s not just about killing pirates, right?

Ideally, the current government should be strengthened so they can go and kill the pirates.

There’s no need for the Guardianista tendency in this thread to feel squeamish about Brett’s proposal. Killing pirates and blockading and bombarding their ports is a perfectly respectable measure to take in response to their activities. None other than Thomas Jefferson, one of the greatest liberal and progressive statesmen, suppressed the Barbary pirates through such means.

Nevertheless – much as one disapproves of pirates – the comments about overfishing and also famine in Somalia cannot be ignored.

This is a warning to all of us. Factory fishing is driving many species to the brink of extinction.

If the oceans die we are going to do what exactly? There’s a larger issue here and it’s being ignored at our peril.

While I am on the subject: what do you guys think merchant ships and naval exercises using sonar and also leakages and outwash of oil residue are doing to the oceans?

Do y’all really think these problems are unrelated to famine and disaster on land including failed states like Somalia?

I’m surprised that “kill the pirates” is the best Harry’s can come up with.

PS: wasn’t Britain famous for “privateers” at one time? Talk about chickens coming home to roost.

Sheese.

much as one disapproves of pirates

One “disapproves” of pirates, does one, Sophia? You can disapprove of people leaving chewing gum stuck to your carpet, or cigarette burns on your furniture, or scribbling in library books. But piracy calls for something a little stronger than mere “disapproval”.

How do we “strengthen” the current government of Somalia Sy?

The first consideration of any western government should be it’s own population and interests, shouldn’t it?

I’m sick of the “Oh look what we made them do now” school of thought, and anything that sounds like it, every time some evil bugger does something criminal or depraved.

If we intervene militarily, we are occupiers.
If we intervene with funds, we gave money to the wrong Somalis who used it for oppressive purposes.
If we intervene with trade deals, we enticed them to export food to the west instead of feeding themselves.
If we send no money, and no troops, we stood by while they suffered.

That third option has the advantage of least cost, and lowest attrition, for the same outcome.

We don’t need to deal with Somalia, we need to deal with piracy and terrorism. Wherever that is coming from.

much as one disapproves of pirates

I’ve got half a dozen close relatives who are merchant mariners. Damn right I “disapprove” of pirates.

Somalia

“Why not spend a bit more time thinking about how we can help encourage development in Somalia ”

Why should we spend time encouraging development in Somalia?

Are you some kind of development imperialist or something, why can’t “we” just mind our own business and let them get on with it.

Or do you believe that because the British Empire had an Empire the descendants should spend the next 10 thousand years feeling guilty about it.

“The despicable comments from some of HP’s more moronic readers”

Default Leftism.

Somalia is a shithole, it is a shithole because of the Somali’s, are you saying that these people and indeed all the others in the numerous shitholes of that continent are simply just incompetent children, what are you saying, they need to be looked after in perpetuity by bleeding heart guilt merchants such as you.

England is full of council estate shitholes, complete with drug and drink addled criminal scumbags, it’s not Somalia’s Fault, it’s the fault of the drug and drink addled scum that infest these English shitholes, now imagine how you would feel if the Somali liberal guiltists starting saying it was all the fault of the Somali people for the out of Africa migration of our species.

Ridiculous isn’t it, I know I know, but then I find bleeding heart liberals such as you to be ridiculous, almost everything people such as you say is, quite frankly, ridiculous self hating guilt ridden bullshit.

“Alms for the Poor” that has always helped to expunge the ‘intelligentsia’ feeling of guilt hasn’t it, lords and ladies handing out pennies has always made them feel as if they were really good people.

You spend your entire life feeling guilty if you wish but don’t preach the ‘we must take care of the entire planet because we are just so righteous and good’ bullshit because you sound like a religious missionary.

The reason most of these countries are in the sorry state they are is because of their own corrupt and incompetent people, people such as you will spend your entire guilt ridden lives denying it, but it will not change the reality of the situation.

Pirates are criminal scum, they are not ‘freedom fighters’ or the ‘resistance’ or the vanguard of a new socialist revolution, they are armed and dangerous criminals.

Oh yes and they are also yet another “cause” for you and ilk to supply your self hating guilt with a weekly dose of self righteous methadone.

Sophia will now explain the mechanism by which sonar deployed at sea, causes famine in Somalia.

It obviously has not occurred to her, that pirates in control of supertankers full of crude oil, might ever present an environmental hazard. It has also not occurred to her that the threat to cause a deliberate massive pollution disaster might prove to be one of the biggest money-spinners these pirates haven’t tried yet.

Be patient. They will.

Especially for Graham!

http://www.talklikeapirate.com/

Joe Camel: It sounds as if the Indian Navy has the right idea. The merchant ships need to have armed guards. There needs an international naval patrol for the area, perhaps under Indian command. It is the Indian Ocean after all and their home ports are the closest. India can probably muster the largest element of an international naval patrol. In addition there should be Marine units attached to the naval patrol to make punitive raids against pirate bases on the Somalia mainland.

Some good books on how the young United States dealt with North African pirate states: “Jefferson’s War:America’s first war on terror, 1801-1805″ by Joseph Wheelan (2004); “To the Shores of Tripoli: the birth of the U.S. Navy and Marines” by A.B.C. Whipple (1991); and “Dawn Like Thunder: the Barbary Wars and the birth of the U.S. Navy” by Glenn Tucker (1963)

“From the Halls of Montezuma
to the Shores of Tripoli”
-Opening lines of the anthem of the U.S. Marine Corps,
“The Marines Hymm” .

I’m sick of the “Oh look what we made them do now” school of thought, and anything that sounds like it, every time some evil bugger does something criminal or depraved.

Awfully sorry to make you nauseous, poor Monty. But tell me what part of that Martin Fletcher I piece I linked to you disagree with. We’re not talking ancient colonial history here, just the last few years.

We don’t need to deal with Somalia, we need to deal with piracy and terrorism. Wherever that is coming from.

And here beginneth another chapter in the WoT that’s been going so swimmingly. Good luck with that.

The tradition of piracy in the islamic world has a very long pedigree. Almost a millenium of attacks on shipping, and also coastal communities in which slaves could be harvested for sale in the markets of North Africa. (This included the British Isles, especially southern Ireland and the south coast of England.)

If it is spiking up again, it has to be knocked back now. The more it continues, the more established it will become.

Something fishy about the fishing story.
Seems the pirates can capture tankers, merchant ships hundreds of miles out at sea. But cannot stop the trawlers a few miles off shore. You would think they would have a few by now.
As most boats are insured. No insurance company would cover you fishing off the horn of africa.

I guess the story is yet another stupid socialist smoke screen to excuse nasty people.

Only white people can be nasty. Pathetic…

Talk like a pirate day? Ahh I be thanking you Jim me hearty.
On Somalia itself. I taught quite a few Somalis in Brent and I’ll always remember one man who had been a Doctor in the country (he was friendly, personable and way more intelligent than me, just needing basic GCSE qualifications to go on to British medical ones) telling me that in his region every now and again a village would decide to “go to war” with a neighbouring settlement and off they would all trundle with clubs and whatever weapons they could put their hands on and give the neighbours a good beating. Loss of life and limb during these adventures was common (according to him) and even though he and the other villagers of average intelligence or above knew it was a really stupid thing to do nonetheless they all went along with it as a custom. (The analogy with Iraq/Afghanistan really isn’t there by the way – this is a custom which unchecked will continue in this way forever.) I was shocked (and that doesn’t happen often) that this intelligent man found it so easy to revert to the condition of the kind of Millwall fan I went to school with – people who would spend the week planning fights outside the game on Saturday. But as he said (and as I already knew so well from those same football hooligans) when people anywhere are wound up and ready for an instant fight backing out puts you on the outside – and as an individual that’s a hard place to be.

Now. You can make the argument that such customs form a vital difference between cultures and that it would be so disappointing if young Tarquin and Jemima didn’t have the opportunity to go abroad and take colourful pictures of Africans kiillng each other on their new digital cameras; and of course conversely you can argue how, when such customs emerge into an increasingly globalised communication-rich world you get tragedies such as happened in Rwanda (and also that heavily ingrained customs hold back the development of an intelligensia) and therefore other countries should intervene and snuff out such practices (as was done with Suti in India .) What it seems to me that you really cannot do is argue that new “customs” should be allowed to develop on the high seas where all countries with merchant fleets have an interest not least because sooner or later the pirates hijack a ship belonging to a crazed dictator who will unleash whatever mayhem he has at his disposal at the guilty (and innocent) population of Somalia. So although Brett’s language about killing loads of pirates was actually a bit Colonel Kilgore for my taste I cannot see how railing against his choice of words helps anyone deal with the actual problem of piracy or, for that matter does anything positive for the people of the country itself.

Its always fun (and easy) to attack a HP contributor on the grounds of what they have said about things in the past but it really would be much more constructive to offer an alternative to killing lots of pirates (if you have one).

I’ve often thought that a lot more pirates could be disposed of with stealth rather than strength.

Give me a concrete hulled 50 foot cruising yacht, say about $40k, then another $10k for an assault rifle, a couple of LMGs, a sackful of claymore mines to hide in the fenders, a video camera to record the proceedings and a jar to pickle the resulting collection of ears – and I reckon I could be the most effective and economical solution to the piracy problem possible.

I have the spare time and the skills, so if anyone reading really does dislike pirates and knows of a way to get the insurance companies to agree to such a proposition then I’d be very happy to hear about it.

Actually claymore mines around ships to discourage boarders is a good idea.

My plan is to encourage them, hence hiding them in the fenders :D

Graham: “…Brett’s language about killings loads of pirates was actually a bit Colonel Kilgore for my taste”.
Actually I thought it bit more like General Buck Turgidson. (joke)

Bert Preast: You have a nasty idea, I like it!

Bert Preast,

You are not going to hole a mother ship below the waterline, (which is what you need to do) with Claymores.

Brett’s language about killings loads of pirates was actually a bit Colonel Kilgore for my taste

A bit Colonel Kurtz, more like.

Rodent’s going soft in his own age. Kurtz has “gone native” Kilgore just loves the smell of napalmed natives.

Rodent’s going soft in his own age. Kurtz has “gone native”

“Exterminate all the brutes”?

Motherships have to be sunk. They represent a great deal of investment money, provided by people who reckon they can make a lot of money out of piracy.

That is why we have to sink them.

Ah Kurtz (In Conrad, not the film) has written “exterminate all the brutes” at the back of his pamphlet on “the surpression of savage customs” (we are told in the next line that he seems to have forgotten he’d written it.) Since he has obviously given up on the idea that the white man can civilise Africa and turned into a mad proto-dictator (much like Hitler in his bunker ranting at Germans for letting him down by not being strong enough) you have to ask yourself who he actually thinks “the brutes” are – and the worrying answer I suspect is humanity in its entierity.

Now you couldn’t say that about Brett. He just wants to shoot pirates. he doesn’t hate humanity altogether – he likes neil Young.

Exterminating brutes is a noble and splendid western tradition.

If you doubt that, look at all the brutes who escaped extermination in the eastern world, and lived to enjoy the fruits of their stolen treasure.

Monty – I don’t intend to get in a fight with a mothership. I could, however, deal with it’s skiffs and then radio it’s position to someone who can sink it. After seeing what happens to the skiffs, I doubt it’d be in much of a mood to close on me.

“Somalia is a violent, anarchic shithole because its barbarian inhabitants have chosen to make it one. They deserve no consideration or sympathy whatsoever from the rest of the world”, writes some racist and ignorant fool who calls himself Dave.

In fact, any analysis of Somalia must take account of its break-up into three separate regions. The one we usually hear about is the bit in the south where Islamist militias fight it out with the extremely weak government that enjoys backing from Ethiopia.

But in the north of the country there is the Republic of Somaliland. This is the bit of Somalia that was once the British Protectorate of Somaliland. It has declared independence, it has a functioning government and economy, its people are not starving to death, it holds elections, and it arrests terrorist suspects. Pirates do not operate from Somaliland. Yet not a single other country in the world recognises Somaliland (though there are political contacts with the EU).

In the middle there is Puntland, which has declared itself an autonomous region. The main pirate ports, such as Eyl, are in Puntland.

The islamists in the south want to take over Puntland, and Puntland has a border dispute with Somaliland.

These facts suggest a political way out of the current crisis. First, reality must be recognised – there is no way of putting a united Somali state back together. The disintegration is irreversible.

So Somaliland should be recognised, and rewarded for its attempts to fight terrorism.

Puntland can be offered a mixture of sticks and carrots. It can be offered recognition and economic assistance, and a negotiated end to its border dispute with Somaliland – in exchange for the eradication of piracy.

The Puntland authorities should be told that, if they crack down on the pirates, they will be regarded as friends and will receive European and American aid. But if they don’t, their ports will be blockaded and western powers will support the Somaliland claim to the border regions.

That leaves the lawless south, where much stronger military action against the islamist militias will probably be necessary (which may mean stronger backing for the Ethiopian army).

The people on this thread who think that international politics is a larger version of a video shoot ‘em up game will sneer at the idea of negotiating an end to piracy.

But I would point them to the most successful campaign against piracy ever – waged by the Roman general Pompey the Great in 67 BC. Pompey combined military action against the pirates, which confined them to their bases on what is now the Turkish coast, with economic incentives. Instead of slaughtering them all, he offered the pirates land. 20,000 of them became farmers, and the Mediterranean remained safe for trade for centuries.

Give me a concrete hulled 50 foot cruising yacht, say about $40k

if you’re that delusional about the prices of yachts, maybe better wait a while before thinking about machine guns. Forty thousand USD might buy you a really crappy backyard ferroboat, but since those things often get badly damaged hauling in and out of boatyards, I think that attaching claymore mines to them is more or less a certain recipe for a watery grave.

Go for the gusto man. since you’re clearly in the realm of pure fantasy, why not fantasise about dispatching the curs with your trusty cutlass?

Pompey combined military action against the pirates, which confined them to their bases on what is now the Turkish coast, with economic incentives. Instead of slaughtering them all, he offered the pirates land.

Clearly just another bleeding heart liberal with a deep-seated hatred of white people.

dsquared – I’ve sailed such ferro-cement boats across the Atlantic more than once. That you would not do something does not mean it cannot be done. The claymores will singe the paint off her but there’s no danger of backblast holing the hull.

The cutlass would be a nice touch, but the idea is I’m going to look stricken with terror right up to initiating the ambush. Think I’d be pretty good at that.

“Pompey combined military action against the pirates, which confined them to their bases on what is now the Turkish coast”L

By what method did he “confine them to their bases”? Ten to one it consisted of a ruthlessly enforced naval blockade which involved sinking any pirate ships that didn’t get the message.

Brett, I am not arguing that western navies should not meet force with force, and should not blow pirate ships out of the water. Of course they should!

But that is not enough, if the underlying political problems remain unsolved.

As for Pompey, a desperate Roman Senate granted him absolute powers over the Mediterranean. The ancient historians tells us that he carved the Mediterranean sea into 13 military regions, each under a legate answerable personally to him. He then used Roman naval power to sweep thepirates methodically off the seas until they were cooped up on the coast of Cilicia (in modern Turkey).

To make sure they didn’t return to piracy, he then bribed them with offers of land. Simply massacring them all wouldn’t have worked.

Sticks usually work best in association with carrots.

By what method did he “confine them to their bases”? Ten to one it consisted of a ruthlessly enforced naval blockade which involved sinking any pirate ships that didn’t get the message.

I think that’s implicit in PV’s statement that he combined military action with economic incentives. It’s the combination, see. Something a little more nuanced than “Kill! Kill! Kill!” But who wants to see that movie? Boooring!

“I think that’s implicit in PV’s statement that he combined military action with economic incentives.”

Really, so how do you propose these “economic incentives” are delivered to the pirates in a way that makes it more attractive than holding a cargo ship hostage for millions of dollars?

One can of course support investment and aid to Somalia as a country (which is a separate issue to bribing the pirates themselves), but that cannot be delivered while the pirates run the show and while pirate bosses stand to personally lose millions. What do you want to do, bribe them to leave ships alone? Bribe them to stop killing judges and legislators trying to restore civil order?

“Brett, I am not arguing that western navies should not meet force with force, and should not blow pirate ships out of the water. Of course they should!

Good. Then we agree.

But that is not enough, if the underlying political problems remain unsolved.

Again, we agree. But I’m not sure to what extent “we” can solve them. It starts with the restoration of civil society, which cannot be done while warlords challege the authority of the state. Increasingly, the warlords derive their power from the profits and armaments gained from piracy.

It starts with the restoration of civil society, which cannot be done while warlords challege the authority of the state.

Can you “restore” something that wasn’t there to begin with? I’m taking civil society to mean non-state organisations etc. Surely if you have what is in many ways a pre-modern state you cannot have civil society (or you have an emerging intelligensia, such as the Doctor I mentioned) who can find no civil society with which to improve things and must move abroad. The real problem surely is the old one of imposing the conditions for modernity or treating the country as a theme park and museum. Either way you still have to deal with pirates who are attacking the modern world.

” The real problem surely is the old one of imposing the conditions for modernity or treating the country as a theme park and museum. Either way you still have to deal with pirates who are attacking the modern world.”

I think you’re right.

Yet we are talking here about independant nation states. We have no right to impose anything upon an independant state, regardless of how beneficial our actions might be for the population. But we do have a right to protect our shipping.

Monty calls Somalia an “independent nation state”. It is no such thing – it has broken into three separate political entities – the lawless mess in the south, the Republic of Somaliland in the northwest, and the pirate haven of Puntland in the middle.

It is utopian to imagine (as the African Union does) that Somalia can be put back together again.

It’s far more realistic to deal with each of the three entities as separate successor states. Western nations could immediately recognise Somaliland, and offer the benefits of recognition to Puntland – but only if it collaborates in eradicating piracy.

Paul I agree with you about recognition of Somaliland.

But insofar as Somalia “belongs” to no other nation state, it is effectively independant. So the rest of the world has no right to impose upon it’s territory, including it’s territorial waters. And no right to deny (for example) it’s trawlers access to international waters.

What we do have the right to do, is protect our own vessels. Including using overwhelming force. And we have a right to respond to any attacks on our territory, with an armed response against their territory.

Bert:
We need to sink motherships. Destroying their small assault craft will not be enough. They will be replaced faster than we can sink them. But the loss of motherships as well will really hurt the guys at the top.

Monty – Here’s a photo of a mothership:

http://ahmadalikarim.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/somali-pirates_12.jpg

Frankly, the outboard engines on the skiffs and the blokes and weapons in them are worth more.

The mothership has the range they need though Bert. If they were operating zodiacs and stuff from the coast, they would be fairly confined to their own coast, and the merchant fleet could more easily stay out of their range.

That’s fine. With my plan, they’ll be coming to me though. I’ll be over 60 miles from the coast, as I don’t particularly want any opportunists, it’s the professionals I’m after. As I said, I’d be ideally placed to radio in the mothership’s position.

What’s needed is for all boats sailing more than say 20 miles offshore to register with the anti-piracy force. As things stand, we can take a ship with skiffs and weapons aboard, and who’s to say the weapons aren’t to protect them from the pirates? Our sailors know damn well they have a pirate ship, but they can’t touch it. Hence my plan to take out the boarding parties and the means of boarding.

Bert, I want to use the Royal Navy to sink the motherships, you want to use claymore against the skiffs. Why can’t we do both?

Strikes me, this could work, if we have the guts to carry it out.

Shiftas, Somali livestock rustlers were murdering in Kenya between the wars! The British Adminstration decided to end the excursions once and for all but were too busy and never found the time. Now the Somalis have advanced to the Tana River and are demanding territorial rights. Everywhere you look a jihad story!