“It seems that the book in question was not written as a guide to practical halacha, but as a theoretical exposition…”

Does theoretical exposition wipe the blood off these wrods:

“If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments – because we care about the commandments – there is nothing wrong with the murder.””

Felix, I have stated clearly that the killing of gentiles who may have violated the seven commandments is forbidden. I mentioned the teachings of the Maharal to that effect, and I stated clearly that I think it is regretful that this book was published because of the possible effects that it could lead to.

My point in stressing the theoretical nature of the tome, was simply to dispel the notion that this book was written as a practical guide book for Jews to kill non-Jews.

If have not spoken out in harsher terms, it is simply because I have not read this book, nor have I read or heard an interview of the Rabbi in question to hear what he has to say.

If everything said about this book is true, then I happily join my voice to those who condemn it in the harshest terms.

what’s the difference between a BT in Chabad and someone born into Chabad?

it’s not just chabad, this – a BT in chabad and many other form of haredi judaism will find it difficult to contract a good marriage with a frum-from-birth haredi, so they’ll have to marry another BT. i believe this is because of concerns about the BT’s parents not observing taharat hamishpacha at the time of conception, but i’ve never seen that written down anywhere. anyway, that attitude is not something i would approve of.

prayer books are nusach Ari Zal, based on Lurianic Kabbalah, quite close to nussach Sefard, which was used traditionally by Chassidic movements in Eastern Europe.

as someone who uses real nusah sefarad, in fact nusah babli, it’s quite a lot different from “sefard” in my experience, whilst both are influenced heavily by the ariza”l. and don’t get me started on feckin’ artscroll, the disney / microsoft-style trojan horse of salafi judaism.

In my personal experience, I have heard much more primitive views on Palestinians from secular Jews than I have from Chabad rabbis.

likewise – but i also know one rabbi that quit chabad over his interfaith activities, probably for this reason.

on Shabbes during meshaberach the rabbi always adding one for kahal, country (i think Israel) and servicemen

i’m not sure it’s actually in the international chabad siddur, because that doesn’t relate to any one particular country, but i could be wrong. i’m pretty sure none of them are in the artscroll. you should also check whether israel is referred to as “reshut semikhat ge’ulateinu” because i doubt a chabad rabbi would be allowed to say such a thing – in fact, i have serious problems with that myself these days, just as i have serious problems with some of the formulations of the prayer for servicemen that i hear.

Should I fear the rise of anti-gentilism?

oh, that’s been around for centuries, in various places, but it was never as explicit as this before the rise of theocratic haredism and ultra-right zionism if you ask me.

I had begun to view Judaism as inherently less crazy than the ‘great’ religions that pirated its cosmogony, and now I’m not so sure.

the only seats we retain on the moral high horse come from refusing to evangelise and learning to live as a self-sufficient, integrated diaspora community, but in everything else, thanks to our lunatic fringe, any laurels that we might have had have long become tarnished.

were Chabad not the first ones on the ground to help the victims of Katrina?

well, that’s kind of my point – the theology worries me, but i am the first to say they do some real good.

Beginning every sentence in lowercase is a grammatical error. You don’t need to be a trained journalist to know this.

hur hur hur, very amusing – but don’t be such a po-faced tight-arse. i hardly think the ability to spot something that is so evidently a deliberately adopted stylistic attempt to create an individual narrative voice qualifies you to lecture me about illiteracy.

b’shalom

bananabrain

Beginning every sentence in lowercase is a grammatical error. You don’t need to be a trained journalist to know this.

Weird and wonderful. Should I fear the rise of anti-gentilism? Probably not, although I had begun to view Judaism as inherently less crazy than the ‘great’ religions that pirated its cosmogony, and now I’m not so sure. Buddhists are complete barkers if that’s any comfort! Being an ex-altar boy, the baby-killing reminded me of the ‘massacre of the innocents’ – pure fiction, although ‘The story may have its origins in Herod’s murder of his own sons, an act which made a deep impression at the time’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Innocents

Spare a thought for Cambodian ‘civil society’, sweet sixteen and going off the rails…
http://www.phnompenhpost.com/index.php/2009111129461/National-news/dont-stop-the-press.html

All the best, Mr T.
x

Hi phil.
Let’s start with 7. The last Rebbe is not the Messiah. I wouldn’t know which part of scripture should nudge us to believe otherwise (that he’s it) and then there’s the quite logical reason you mention :)

6. When we sat shive for my dad, his (Chabad) rabbi studied from the Shulhan Aruch with us and our visitors. Where have you heard that Chabad rejects this? I will try to find out whether anyone I know believes that it shouldn’t be studied.

5. Where do you get this data from? Do they? I have never checked all spouses for their Chassidic heritage. And what’s the difference between a BT in Chabad and someone born into Chabad?

4. What do you mean by ‘other way around’? Chabad prayer books are nusach Ari Zal, based on Lurianic Kabbalah, quite close to nussach Sefard, which was used traditionally by Chassidic movements in Eastern Europe. The big deal with Chabad when it was founded was to make people understand that they themselves are responsible for their spiritual development and taking action (deeds of kindness, studying…) and that they can’t simply rely on a rabbi to magically do this for them. As part of this, let’s say enlightenment or emancipation of the Chassid, the teaching of Kabbalah was to become commonplace and more accessible to everyone instead of just the accomplished scholar. The connection between the accessibility of Kabbalah and reliance on nusach Ari Zal must be more involved than that, but this is as far as my knowledge goes.

3. Again, the views of Chabadniks on the Palestinians and peace efforts vary widely. In my personal experience, I have heard much more primitive views on Palestinians from secular Jews than I have from Chabad rabbis. A Chabbadnik called Yitz Jordan used to have a blog where he dabbled in political things – he doesn’t seem right-wing at all to me.

1., 2. I must admit that I never noticed these prayers missing. I seem to remember on Shabbes during meshaberach the rabbi always adding one for kahal, country (i think Israel) and servicemen I will have to get hold of a Chabad prayer book and look for this. Btw, do Artscroll siddurim include a prayer for welfare of your country?

I will look into 1, 2, and 6.

Levi, thanks for your comments but you really should address the questions.

1. Why no prayer for the welfare of the state you are living in in Chabad synagogues?

2. Why no prayer for the State of Israel.

3. Why the extremist ultra-right wing views re: Palestinians.

4. Why the acceptance of changing to Chabad mode of prayer but not the other way round?

5. Why do they only marry within the sect – and we both know we’re not talking about the BT’s but the real Chabad.?

6. What’s wrong with everyone else’s shulchan aruch?

7. And if you answer this one, I’ll let you off with the rest – Please confirm that since MMS is now deceased he cannot be the Messiah?

Best,

Phil

what precicely it is that they get form chopping bits off infant boy’s genitalia.

pride, solidarity and joy at facilitating entry into the sole surviving diaspora culture of the ancient world, combined with knowledge – from personal experience – that it doesn’t actually do any permanent damage or prevent said boy from eventually having a full and entirely satisfying sex life, we’ll leave aside any more arguable benefits such as giving the father solidarity and an emotional connection comparable to the mother’s birth pains through a blood initiation rite, as well as all the scientific stuff (which, religiously, i won’t rely on although it may very well be valid) about reducing certain forms of cancer and improving sexual health. precise enough?

The fact is that Ha’Aretz, from being a serious newspaper in my distant youth, has descended to the sewers and joined the Guardian (likewise a serious paper once upon a time) in an orgy of antisemitic yellow journalism.

that’s why i noted that the same story has been reported extensively elsewhere, by other papers. i carry no particular brief for ha-aretz.

it is perfectly reasonable to point out the illiteracy of the writer of an opinion piece.

especially if that itself, is a matter of opinion – and not one i have ever heard before, but if you would like to tell me what grammatical errors i have made then i will gladly look into them. i can only see one colon in my piece and as far as i know, it’s being used correctly. of course, as a humble blogger, i have not had the privilege of extensive training in journalism and sub-editing, unlike your good self, presumably.

My main objection is the double standard of the cosying up to them by the United Synagogue Orthodox establishment in the UK while scorning Masorti and Reform.

that is something that has been bothering me to a long time, but it’s not the main point here, obviously.

b’shalom

bananabrain

The most distrubing sentence in this thread comes, I regret to say, from YoussiK:

“It seems that the book in question was not written as a guide to practical halacha, but as a theoretical exposition…”

Does theoretical exposition wipe the blood off these wrods:

“If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments – because we care about the commandments – there is nothing wrong with the murder.”