Comments on: Suicide Watch http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/26/suicide-watch-10/ Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don't want to hear Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:59:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: angus appleseed http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/26/suicide-watch-10/comment-page-1/#comment-402073 angus appleseed Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:54:09 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=23299#comment-402073 Thanks for correcting me. Thanks for correcting me.

]]> By: Mike S http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/26/suicide-watch-10/comment-page-1/#comment-402044 Mike S Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:22:01 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=23299#comment-402044 Angus We're into the realm of alternative histories now, but I don't think Saddam would have launched another war after being firmly put back in his box in Kuwait (we could even go back further and argue that if Saddam had got a firm "don't" from the US Ambassador he consulted prior to the invasion, he would have held back). In terms of the peoples you mention, only the Iraqi shiites were in any danger from Saddam post-Kuwait, and their casualty rate since 2003. (OK, they now have the country, but how much benefit the average guy on the street sees from that is a moot point). I don't honestly know whether it's the sheer incompetence and leadership of the US's political leadership from invasion to Petraeus, or whether the very doctrine of liberal interventionism is inherently flawed, but the Iraq adventure is a disaster and it's not done yet. Angus
We’re into the realm of alternative histories now, but I don’t think Saddam would have launched another war after being firmly put back in his box in Kuwait (we could even go back further and argue that if Saddam had got a firm “don’t” from the US Ambassador he consulted prior to the invasion, he would have held back).

In terms of the peoples you mention, only the Iraqi shiites were in any danger from Saddam post-Kuwait, and their casualty rate since 2003. (OK, they now have the country, but how much benefit the average guy on the street sees from that is a moot point).

I don’t honestly know whether it’s the sheer incompetence and leadership of the US’s political leadership from invasion to Petraeus, or whether the very doctrine of liberal interventionism is inherently flawed, but the Iraq adventure is a disaster and it’s not done yet.

]]> By: Andrew Adams http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/26/suicide-watch-10/comment-page-1/#comment-402039 Andrew Adams Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:17:32 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=23299#comment-402039 Angus Appleseed, Well I certainly did argue at the time the sanctions were having a terrible effect on the Iraqi people. As for personally trying to fix the sanctions or contain Saddam, well that's rather beyond my somewhat limited powers but then I thought that the issue here was what the best course of action may have been in order to assist the Iraqi people, not what I may or may not have done at the time. Angus Appleseed,

Well I certainly did argue at the time the sanctions were having a terrible effect on the Iraqi people. As for personally trying to fix the sanctions or contain Saddam, well that’s rather beyond my somewhat limited powers but then I thought that the issue here was what the best course of action may have been in order to assist the Iraqi people, not what I may or may not have done at the time.

]]> By: Larkers http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/26/suicide-watch-10/comment-page-1/#comment-402034 Larkers Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:01:14 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=23299#comment-402034 "Perhaps you know better than people ranging from Pilger and his cronies to Madeleine Albright, who all believed that sanctions were killing many hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis. Pilger thought this was a crime against humanity. Albright thought it was a price worth paying. Regardless of who was right, and there’s no in-between, the choice was to either maintain sanctions, or to invade. Unless you think that lifting sanctions, and the genocide on multiple fronts that would have ensued, was a price worth paying." – angus appleseed 12.53 p.m. A point often overlooked, well made. "Indeed - that is quite an assumption to make. Regarding the sanctions, surely one option would have been to at least try to fix them so that Saddam was still contained while minimising the adverse consequences for the rest of the Iraqi people." – Andrew Adams 6.18 p.m. Andrew, sanctions were tried for a decade and the only result was to entrench Saddam Friends and Family. How many Iraqis died during this period as a consequence? I do not know, but no one says 'none'. I think most foreign governments were able to put up with that – particularly the ones that were not spending time enforcing sanctions compliance. But by 2001 – 2002 it was obvious this situation had to be resolved. Sixteen UN resolutions could not do it. “Perhaps you know better than people ranging from Pilger and his cronies to Madeleine Albright, who all believed that sanctions were killing many hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis. Pilger thought this was a crime against humanity. Albright thought it was a price worth paying. Regardless of who was right, and there’s no in-between, the choice was to either maintain sanctions, or to invade. Unless you think that lifting sanctions, and the genocide on multiple fronts that would have ensued, was a price worth paying.” – angus appleseed 12.53 p.m.

A point often overlooked, well made.

“Indeed – that is quite an assumption to make. Regarding the sanctions, surely one option would have been to at least try to fix them so that Saddam was still contained while minimising the adverse consequences for the rest of the Iraqi people.” – Andrew Adams 6.18 p.m.

Andrew, sanctions were tried for a decade and the only result was to entrench Saddam Friends and Family. How many Iraqis died during this period as a consequence? I do not know, but no one says ‘none’. I think most foreign governments were able to put up with that – particularly the ones that were not spending time enforcing sanctions compliance. But by 2001 – 2002 it was obvious this situation had to be resolved. Sixteen UN resolutions could not do it.

]]> By: angus appleseed http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/26/suicide-watch-10/comment-page-1/#comment-402018 angus appleseed Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:31:17 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=23299#comment-402018 Mike S, If genocide was not the inevitable consequence of lifting sanctions, why did you reluctantly support the invasion "at the outset"? The invasion only lasted a few days, did you support it for less than one? Mike S,
If genocide was not the inevitable consequence of lifting sanctions, why did you reluctantly support the invasion “at the outset”?
The invasion only lasted a few days, did you support it for less than one?

]]> By: angus appleseed http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/26/suicide-watch-10/comment-page-1/#comment-401999 angus appleseed Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:01:55 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=23299#comment-401999 Mike S, on one level you're right, there is no way of ascertaining whether a certain event would have been 100% inevitable, had circumstances been different. But I don't think many Kurds or Iranians or Kuwaitis or Saudis or Israelis or Shiite Iraqis would be persuaded by your argument. Mike S, on one level you’re right, there is no way of ascertaining whether a certain event would have been 100% inevitable, had circumstances been different. But I don’t think many Kurds or Iranians or Kuwaitis or Saudis or Israelis or Shiite Iraqis would be persuaded by your argument.

]]> By: angus appleseed http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/26/suicide-watch-10/comment-page-1/#comment-401997 angus appleseed Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:34:43 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=23299#comment-401997 Andrew Adams, Did you do anything to try to "fix" sanctions while they were in place? Did you do anything to try to "contain" Saddam, for instance by protesting against the brutality of his regime or against the complicity of western politicians who worked behind the scenes on his behalf? Unless you can answer yes to either question, then explain why your concern for Iraqi people is expressed only after the fact. Andrew Adams,
Did you do anything to try to “fix” sanctions while they were in place?
Did you do anything to try to “contain” Saddam, for instance by protesting against the brutality of his regime or against the complicity of western politicians who worked behind the scenes on his behalf?
Unless you can answer yes to either question, then explain why your concern for Iraqi people is expressed only after the fact.

]]> By: Andrew Adams http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/26/suicide-watch-10/comment-page-1/#comment-401994 Andrew Adams Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:18:25 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=23299#comment-401994 <i>The point on sanctions is an apposite one. The effect on Iraqi society was devastating to a degree that it never was on say South Africa, and was one of the reasons why I reluctantly supported the invasion at the outset. I can’t honestly tell you what the answer is, although I don’t believe that “genocide on multiple fronts” would have been the inevitable result of relaxing them. </i> Indeed - that is quite an assumption to make. Regarding the sanctions, surely one option would have been to at least try to fix them so that Saddam was still contained while minimising the adverse consequences for the rest of the Iraqi people. The point on sanctions is an apposite one. The effect on Iraqi society was devastating to a degree that it never was on say South Africa, and was one of the reasons why I reluctantly supported the invasion at the outset. I can’t honestly tell you what the answer is, although I don’t believe that “genocide on multiple fronts” would have been the inevitable result of relaxing them.

Indeed – that is quite an assumption to make. Regarding the sanctions, surely one option would have been to at least try to fix them so that Saddam was still contained while minimising the adverse consequences for the rest of the Iraqi people.

]]> By: David All http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/26/suicide-watch-10/comment-page-1/#comment-401969 David All Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:38:33 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=23299#comment-401969 David Ignatius says that Iraqis Can Take It! Read "A resilient Baghdad on a day of horror" at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/25/AR2009102502033.html?hpid=topnews Hat tip for the link to Iraqi Mojo who writes about this atrocity and the Arab World's reaction or lack of it with his post, "Sunday Bloody Sunday" at http://www.iraqimojo.blogspot.com David Ignatius says that Iraqis Can Take It!

Read “A resilient Baghdad on a day of horror” at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/25/AR2009102502033.html?hpid=topnews

Hat tip for the link to Iraqi Mojo who writes about this atrocity and the Arab World’s reaction or lack of it with his post, “Sunday Bloody Sunday” at http://www.iraqimojo.blogspot.com

]]> By: Graham http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/26/suicide-watch-10/comment-page-1/#comment-401951 Graham Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:51:04 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=23299#comment-401951 <i>much the same analysis can be made for the continuing rule of President Hu in China</i> I neither think China is a disintegrating state nor that it is likely to invade Iran in the near future. <i>when are we going to invade?</i> Just as soon as I get these darn pips sewn on. much the same analysis can be made for the continuing rule of President Hu in China

I neither think China is a disintegrating state nor that it is likely to invade Iran in the near future.

when are we going to invade?

Just as soon as I get these darn pips sewn on.

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