Comments on: “A track record of active opposition to the nazi regime” http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/08/a-track-record-of-active-opposition-to-the-nazi-regime/ Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don't want to hear Fri, 10 Feb 2012 05:42:11 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Puzzled http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/08/a-track-record-of-active-opposition-to-the-nazi-regime/comment-page-2/#comment-396704 Puzzled Sun, 11 Oct 2009 09:51:24 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=22568#comment-396704 <i>My point was that it is impossible to know who is good, but easy to know who repudiates and regrets their former Naziism and/or Communism. Pretty much everyone who admits that they were one or the other.</i> That might have worked if you yourself had not made the appeal to imagination to back your own point. <i>More importantly, my point was that many Leftists apologize for Communism and freely admit that they consider it morally superior to Nazism. As you have.</i> No I have not. Anywhere. So lets add lying to your obvious inability to argue. My point was that it is impossible to know who is good, but easy to know who repudiates and regrets their former Naziism and/or Communism. Pretty much everyone who admits that they were one or the other.

That might have worked if you yourself had not made the appeal to imagination to back your own point.

More importantly, my point was that many Leftists apologize for Communism and freely admit that they consider it morally superior to Nazism. As you have.

No I have not. Anywhere. So lets add lying to your obvious inability to argue.

]]> By: Biff Larkin http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/08/a-track-record-of-active-opposition-to-the-nazi-regime/comment-page-1/#comment-396665 Biff Larkin Sun, 11 Oct 2009 02:04:48 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=22568#comment-396665 How confused you are, Puzzled. The "arguer," as you put it, argued that it is easy to imagine good but niave people being communists, but hard to imagine good but niave people being Nazis. My point was that it is impossible to know who is good, but easy to know who repudiates and regrets their former Naziism and/or Communism. Pretty much everyone who admits that they were one or the other. More importantly, my point was that many Leftists apologize for Communism and freely admit that they consider it morally superior to Nazism. As you have. How confused you are, Puzzled. The “arguer,” as you put it, argued that it is easy to imagine good but niave people being communists, but hard to imagine good but niave people being Nazis. My point was that it is impossible to know who is good, but easy to know who repudiates and regrets their former Naziism and/or Communism. Pretty much everyone who admits that they were one or the other.

More importantly, my point was that many Leftists apologize for Communism and freely admit that they consider it morally superior to Nazism. As you have.

]]> By: Lorenzo http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/08/a-track-record-of-active-opposition-to-the-nazi-regime/comment-page-1/#comment-396489 Lorenzo Sat, 10 Oct 2009 07:11:31 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=22568#comment-396489 Michael R: It would take pages and pages do justice to this topic. Just a few comments for the time being. You say that "both ideologies are premised on some sort of conspiracy -conscious or uncoscious- by the part of the rich to oppress the poor." This is quite simply inaccurate. Whatever the huge shortcomings of Marxim, it is not predicated on a conspiracy. Secondly, Marx never talks about "the rich". He does of course talk about the capitalists, in the context of the capitalist system. You also claim that "Communists confused Jews with speculators and destroyed them." There were executions of some Jews accused of speculation in the USSR, but this does not justify your blanket statement about Communists confusing Jews with speculators ! Such an idea was never propagated by Communist parties (I am aware of Marx's text on the Jewish question, by the way). The Communist parties not in power actually opposed anti-Semitism, and in some cases were among the few parties who did. In pre-war Poland it was the anti-Communist rightist parties who were anti-Semitic. It is not enough to concede that "not every individual communist is anti-Semitic". If you want to make a serious argument, you have to factor in the opposition to anti-Semitism by Left parties (including the Communists) at different times, and the propagation of anti-Semitism by conservative anti-Left forces. I suggest reading about politics in Eastern Europe between WWI and WWII. Michael R: It would take pages and pages do justice to this topic. Just a few comments for the time being. You say that “both ideologies are premised on some sort of conspiracy -conscious or uncoscious- by the part of the rich to oppress the poor.”
This is quite simply inaccurate. Whatever the huge shortcomings of Marxim, it is not predicated on a conspiracy.
Secondly, Marx never talks about “the rich”. He does of course talk about the capitalists, in the context of the capitalist system.
You also claim that “Communists confused Jews with speculators and destroyed them.”
There were executions of some Jews accused of speculation in the USSR, but this does not justify your blanket statement about Communists confusing Jews with speculators ! Such an idea was never propagated by Communist parties (I am aware of Marx’s text on the Jewish question, by the way). The Communist parties not in power actually opposed anti-Semitism, and in some cases were among the few parties who did. In pre-war Poland it was the anti-Communist rightist parties who were anti-Semitic. It is not enough to concede that “not every individual communist is anti-Semitic”. If you want to make a serious argument, you have to factor in the opposition to anti-Semitism by Left parties (including the Communists) at different times, and the propagation of anti-Semitism by conservative anti-Left forces. I suggest reading about politics in Eastern Europe between WWI and WWII.

]]> By: Puzzled http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/08/a-track-record-of-active-opposition-to-the-nazi-regime/comment-page-1/#comment-396482 Puzzled Sat, 10 Oct 2009 06:11:01 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=22568#comment-396482 I think you will find that the arguer is making no such claim but instead is saying it would be "easy to imagine" someone adhering to communism, a contention that you then follow by saying exactly the same thing about it being easy to imagine people adhering to either nazism or communism before weirdly negating the act of imagination so that your statement becomes some sort of Orwellian doublespeak. I think you will find that the arguer is making no such claim but instead is saying it would be “easy to imagine” someone adhering to communism, a contention that you then follow by saying exactly the same thing about it being easy to imagine people adhering to either nazism or communism before weirdly negating the act of imagination so that your statement becomes some sort of Orwellian doublespeak.

]]> By: Biff Larkin http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/08/a-track-record-of-active-opposition-to-the-nazi-regime/comment-page-1/#comment-396473 Biff Larkin Sat, 10 Oct 2009 03:58:09 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=22568#comment-396473 "It is difficult to imagine a naive but basically good person adhering to Nazism. On the other hand, many basically good but naive people have adhered to Communism." How wrong you are! It is easy to imagine naive people adhering to either doctrine of mass murder and a permanent police state because no act of the imagination is required. History records that millions of niave people adhered to one or the other: and some fewer millions adhered to one AFTER the other. The creepy, (one might say, totalitarian premise of this argument) is that the arguer claims the ability to know the human heart, and who is "basically good." Well, know one here arguing for the moral equivelance of Naziism and Communism claims the ability to know human hearts. “It is difficult to imagine a naive but basically good person adhering to Nazism. On the other hand, many basically good but naive people have adhered to Communism.”

How wrong you are! It is easy to imagine naive people adhering to either doctrine of mass murder and a permanent police state because no act of the imagination is required. History records that millions of niave people adhered to one or the other: and some fewer millions adhered to one AFTER the other.

The creepy, (one might say, totalitarian premise of this argument) is that the arguer claims the ability to know the human heart, and who is “basically good.”

Well, know one here arguing for the moral equivelance of Naziism and Communism claims the ability to know human hearts.

]]> By: Lorenzo http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/08/a-track-record-of-active-opposition-to-the-nazi-regime/comment-page-1/#comment-396406 Lorenzo Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:46:14 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=22568#comment-396406 Fabian: I often agree with you, but here I don't. Your parallels between Nazism and Communism are forced. Nazi ideology does not call for a struggle against usury, but against Jews. Communism did not call for the elimination of a group of individuals, but against a system. Fabiian, would you place the Communist partisans in France and Italy who fought against the Nazis in the same category as...the Nazis? With whom would you have sided in 1942 or 1943 in France - the anti-Communist "Volontaires contre le Bolchevisme" who fought alongside the Wehrmacht in the Soviet Union, or the French Communists who were sabotaging the Nazi war effort? The Communist partisans were unaware of the real nature of the USSR, and did not join the Communist movement to build goulags or kill capitalists. People who joined the Nazi movement knowingly supported Jew-hatred. Fabian: I often agree with you, but here I don’t. Your parallels between Nazism and Communism are forced. Nazi ideology does not call for a struggle against usury, but against Jews. Communism did not call for the elimination of a group of individuals, but against a system.
Fabiian, would you place the Communist partisans in France and Italy who fought against the Nazis in the same category as…the Nazis? With whom would you have sided in 1942 or 1943 in France – the anti-Communist “Volontaires contre le Bolchevisme” who fought alongside the Wehrmacht in the Soviet Union, or the French Communists who were sabotaging the Nazi war effort?
The Communist partisans were unaware of the real nature of the USSR, and did not join the Communist movement to build goulags or kill capitalists. People who joined the Nazi movement knowingly supported Jew-hatred.

]]> By: Fabian from Israel http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/08/a-track-record-of-active-opposition-to-the-nazi-regime/comment-page-1/#comment-396390 Fabian from Israel Fri, 09 Oct 2009 19:36:28 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=22568#comment-396390 "Again, no, because we fight capital" No, you don't. You strike against specific capitalists, you confront specific policemen. Unless you want to agree with the statement: Nazis fight usury. Communism is conspiratorial in nature, the main left ideologues confused Jews with Capitalism and usury, and they "fought" the Jews. That confusion will happen again and again, because Nazism and Communism as ideologies are very similar. They need an enemy, they believe that a small elite oppresses the masses. And historically, Communism has been antisemitic in practice. “Again, no, because we fight capital”

No, you don’t. You strike against specific capitalists, you confront specific policemen.

Unless you want to agree with the statement: Nazis fight usury.

Communism is conspiratorial in nature, the main left ideologues confused Jews with Capitalism and usury, and they “fought” the Jews. That confusion will happen again and again, because Nazism and Communism as ideologies are very similar. They need an enemy, they believe that a small elite oppresses the masses. And historically, Communism has been antisemitic in practice.

]]> By: George http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/08/a-track-record-of-active-opposition-to-the-nazi-regime/comment-page-1/#comment-396194 George Fri, 09 Oct 2009 15:13:28 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=22568#comment-396194 Islamism, by the way, is also a Ronseal Ideology. But a lot of people appear to have forgotten their glasses and seem unable to read what it says on the tin. Islamism, by the way, is also a Ronseal Ideology. But a lot of people appear to have forgotten their glasses and seem unable to read what it says on the tin.

]]> By: Red Deathy http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/08/a-track-record-of-active-opposition-to-the-nazi-regime/comment-page-1/#comment-396172 Red Deathy Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:39:37 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=22568#comment-396172 Fabian, I suppose the abolitionists were also mad men and delusionists? Fabian,

I suppose the abolitionists were also mad men and delusionists?

]]> By: Fabian from Israel http://hurryupharry.org/2009/10/08/a-track-record-of-active-opposition-to-the-nazi-regime/comment-page-1/#comment-396164 Fabian from Israel Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:19:06 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=22568#comment-396164 "It is difficult to imagine a naive but basically good person adhering to Nazism" "George - very succinct" But wrong. Many Germans believed that the fuhrer was actually Germany incarnated. That the future will be bright (for the people that mattered). They educated their children with smiles and candies and did not consider themselves bad persons. Just like a Communist may justify the worst evils for the greater good of the Revolution. I don't see them as opposite poles. Both were led by mad men, and followed by many people deluded. “It is difficult to imagine a naive but basically good person adhering to Nazism”
“George – very succinct”

But wrong. Many Germans believed that the fuhrer was actually Germany incarnated. That the future will be bright (for the people that mattered). They educated their children with smiles and candies and did not consider themselves bad persons. Just like a Communist may justify the worst evils for the greater good of the Revolution. I don’t see them as opposite poles. Both were led by mad men, and followed by many people deluded.

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