Harry's Place

Well, sure. If you used the F-word on Bush, you’ve got a cheek complaining when these wingnuts use the same on Obama and deserve a) laughter and b) the finger.

That said, I think the major difference between the two is that people called Bush a Nazi mainly because he presided over a massive state propaganda campaign explicitly designed to provide political cover for a calamitous military bloodbath, a programme of covert abduction and torture and a network of secret prisons.

Obama, on the other hand, is trying to pass a medicare bill.

Say what you like about Adolf Hitler, but nobody ever called him History’s most evil mass-medicator.

Exhibit A above.

The left lost me after 9/11. They deserve everything that is coming to them, the rancid, lillylivered, enemy-loving, traitorous, pantywaisted douchebags.

My tongue is only slightly in my cheek when I say that, but at least it’s not right the way up the arse of Jamaat-e-Islaami, so that one thing I have over Respect, StWC et al.

Also, to describe CJ as centre right is ludicrous. He may have been correct a few years ago. Now he’s back to where I started: a naive liberal. He has picked up the nasty Stalinist trait of purging anyone who vaguely disagrees with him, though.

Finally, you should point out that the Obama Hitler sign is not real, but merely a doctored JPG of the image above it.

Heh.

Are you sure you didn’t pay Rodent to post that?

strangeways – “Also, to describe CJ as centre right is ludicrous. He may have been correct a few years ago. Now he’s back to where I started: a naive liberal. He has picked up the nasty Stalinist trait of purging anyone who vaguely disagrees with him, though.”

I agree that Charles Johnson is not really centre right. He was a typical Californian Hippy who was appalled by the 9-11 attacks and the people who endorsed them. A Fellow Traveller is perhaps the best term. But now the threat of the Islamists is fading, and the Right is getting nuttier, he no longer sees the need to stay on the same tram. I don’t think he is naive, it is just that he was always more liberal, in the good sense, than most of America’s Right. He has a lot in common with Harry’s Place I suppose.

Exhibit A above.

You really think? I would’ve thought it was obvious that official disinformation campaigns, war, torture, murder and clandestine abductions and detention are significantly more objectionable than state-funded health programmes, what with the former being a common feature in banana republics and tinpot dictatorships and the latter belonging to touchy-feely European democracies.

That’s obviously true, surely? The Nazi signs and giant puppets aren’t helpful or reasonable in either situation, but I think their appearance at protests against military bloodbaths and state-sanctioned torture is rather more understandable than they are for protests against state-funded medical insurance.

But, if you are looking to a Sensible Right for relief, you find Cameroon’s alliances with the Sinister Right of Europe; a grand regressive coalition of EVERYBODY, if you will. Dave may of course start edging away from them if it becomes expedient

The right in the US were pretty bonkers when they were in power. For me the episode that stands out the most was the attempted interference in the Terri Schiavo case.

I’m sure that you’re right when you say the left will go loopy when out of power but, frankly, looking at what they do when they’re in power, they’re pretty loopy there too (paying Prevent money to Islamist extremists / ID cards / databases / abolition of the concept of innocent until proved guilty / losing your job on the basis of unfounded allegations etc etc). So maybe the only sensible conclusion is to say that the left is generally – with a few honourable exceptions – loopy and should be nowhere near the levers of power.

I agree with your sentiments. Although the Greens
are presented by the BBC/Guardian axis as an alternative
to the Lib Dems, they are more poisonous & dangerous than
the BNP would know how to be.

Their candidates include Holocaust deniers & 9/11 troofers.
They want us to pauperize ourselves & unilaterally disarm,
in order encourage Iran, Pakistan, North Korea etc to follow suit.
The only safe & secure source of power is nuclear, so they
want us to abandon it & be even more reliant on our French
friends for their (nuclear generated) electricity.

Caroline Lucas is a loathsome pushy woman who leaves
Harperson asleep at the gate.

If we want progressive humane politics with a concern for
the poorer classes, there is no serious option but the
Conservatives – especially on education & benefits.
If they toughen up their agenda, they could fulfill many
of the ideals of the old “respectable” Left.

However loopy Labour get, as indeed they surely will, once they are out of office (which day frankly cannot come too soon), I really doubt they will be any more morally bankrupt and contemptible then they have been during the regrettable years during which they have held office.

What does make me wonder: re coalitions and so on, looking to the medium term: what will happen to Labour if, hypothetically, Scotland became independent; as without Scotland the Conservatives, as things stand, would pretty much be assured something like a permanent majority in what would remain of the United Kingdom. I guess some broader re-formation of parties across the board (in England and Wales, and who knows, maybe NI as well) might take place then.

In any case, here’s to the defeat of the vile and amoral New Labour project, and a rapid reversal of much of what it has inflicted upon the beleaguered people of England, Wales and Scotland. (I will credit them with fairly positive results in Northern Ireland, however)

I only wish I felt more enthuisasm for the alternative: although given the idiocy and adolation which greeted the ghastly Blair from so many, perhaps low expectations (even allowing for the fact that we let these evil people currently in office wreck the economy for years ahead to come) are a better starting point

Funny to see Obama likened to a nazi. All the bumper stickers I saw in Nevada recently likened him to a communist. I concluded that the rednecks (is that a racist term?) driving the trucks with these stickers probably knew very little about any particular ideology.

David is spot on though-this anti-Obama hysteria is the mirror image of the left wing hysteria that holds it self-evident that “Bush is a nazi who planned the 911 attacks as an excuse to occupy the Muslim world because Jews/Israel/Halliburton told him to”. I am not sure how “fringe” these views are on the left (or some of the right), actually.

B

The Morning Star shows the way: Monday’s article listing 10 socialists who never sold out. Inter alia, Chavez, Ortega and Milosovic.

As for the Greens. Look to Brazil. Maria Silva, ex-Workers’ Party, tipped to be their next Presidential candidate. Born-again Christian (Assemblies of God), anti-abortion, and wants Creationism taught in school.

That’s a coalition of views that even puts Lucas to shame.

I think the right seem more extreme than they actually are – simply because they are finally finding a voice.

The right aren’t naturally given to the art of outdoor protest. They have jobs, families, mortgages, responsibility. They normally don’t usually have the time to go on demos, holding banners and shouting slogans. Also, being working folk (rather than students or feckless radical dole scum) they have a bit more money. Walking down a street in the act of protest, is anathema to someone with a nice car.

So when the right actually do get off their arses and protest against something, the left gaze at it in shock – as if the dog suddenly meowed.

Also, to paraphrase Private Jones, the left “don’t like it up ‘em”.

An NHS would be a huge step for America. Whether you agree with it or not. It’s therefore natural and understandable that some people would be vocally angry about it. That doesn’t make them monsters and neither does it make them racist if they criticise the apparantly untouchable messiah Barrack Obama.

Grow up. Get over it and eat what you’ve dished out for the best part of a fucking decade, you whining left-tards.

There are any number of very good reasons for the intense antipathy felt by many of us on the left towards Bush and his vile cronies. To compare him with Hitler is silly and wrong but to claim that “during the Bush years, the mainstream Left went absolutely bonkers” is just as ridiculous and displays a kind of prissy puritanism also evident in your objection to Compass inviting Lucas to their meeting.

In reality, the cocktail that the US Right is drinking – racism directed at Obama, turning up to rallies with guns, an extreme position on abortion, creationism, hyperbole over tax/healthcare, tolerance of links with white supremacists, etc. – will keep the Right out of power for a decade or more.

Similarly, the “grand coalition of progressive forces” strategy that the Left in the UK is going to fall in step with (where Hamas supporters and the Green Party are seen as ‘partners’) will also keep the Left out of power for a similar period.

“The right aren’t naturally given to the art of outdoor protest. They have jobs, families, mortgages, responsibility. They normally don’t usually have the time to go on demos, holding banners and shouting slogans. Also, being working folk (rather than students or feckless radical dole scum) they have a bit more money. Walking down a street in the act of protest, is anathema to someone with a nice car.”

welcome to HP, I’ve got a feeling you’re going to find a natural home here!

Interestingly, the Tories in the UK never went completely bonkers – although they did a little bit, over Europe, they didn’t descend into utter zaniness.

Most Tories I knew actually rather admired Blair, and envied Labour for our leader!

Moth to a flame is a tired cliche, having recently been out with the local authority ranger service on a moth night I’d suggest ‘moth to high power mercury vapour lamp’ is more apt, whereas the occasional moth attracted to a flame is consumed the lamp will attract thousands of moths making you wonder where all the moths came from. Attracted to a mercury lamp, a moth will bang it’s head before becoming temporarily disoriented allowing you to catch it in a clear pot and examine it methodically with a hand lens.

the Tories in the UK never went completely bonkers – What about Cameron’s current alliance with some sinister parties in Europe- would you put that down to carelessness rather than any underlying affinity?

“Interestingly, the Tories in the UK never went completely bonkers “

If you believe that Labour were out of power for 18 years because of their extremism yet the Tories will have been out of power for 12-13 years by the next election without going “completely bonkers”, maybe going bonkers doesn’t really harm a party’s election prospects.

“Most Tories I knew actually rather admired Blair, and envied Labour for our leader!”

Not least he has demonstrated the best timing in the business-a smooth exit and handover to a disgruntled patsy just before economic collapse and political annihilation (possibly a European presidency in the bag as well). Absolutely flawless performance!

B

Moth to a flame is a tired cliche

Orwell used “bluebottles to a dead cat”.

The Tories were simply divided, directionless and weak – certainly compared to a confident and apparently invulnerable Labour.

It could have been far worse for the Tories.

The alliance with the zany parts of the European Right, and the exit from the EPP is a crazy move by the Tories, which has weakened them, and Britain in Europe – but is explicable at least as a consequence of the ultimate triumph of Euroscepticism within the party, rather than as an intended consequence in itself.

the Tories in the UK never went completely bonkers – What about Cameron’s current alliance with some sinister parties in Europe- would you put that down to carelessness rather than any underlying affinity?

You do know that Labour is in bed with even worse nutters than the Tories could ever be?

The alliance with the zany parts of the European Right, and the exit from the EPP is a crazy move by the Tories, which has weakened them, and Britain in Europe – but is explicable at least as a consequence of the ultimate triumph of Euroscepticism within the party, rather than as an intended consequence in itself.

The eurofanaticism of David T and other treacheous liberals is a minority and extremist view within the United Kingdom.

Recent polls put the percentage of people who want to leave the EUSSR at close to 50% and climbing.

Morgoth,

the voice of balance and moderation, as ever. My geography is shocking, is EUSSR anywhere near EUrabia?

You don’t have to be on the right to feel reluctant to see greater EU federalism. And there are some serious problems (financial accountability and corruption, for example) that shouldn’t be a matter of political partisanship. Calling the Conservatives’ move from the EPP “crazy” or Eurosceptic is a bit of a simplification. The EPP is federalist and not obviously determined to correct the problems of the current institutions. Cameron’s move was hardly comparable with the giant heads and Hitler posters being discussed.

The Tories WERE a complete embarrassment…when exactly…certainly in the late 1990s, William “is that a pound coin in your pocket? It’s got the Queen’s Head on it” Hague, clearly promoted before his time…

then IDS…a wonderful, good, honourable and decent man, but, alas, not cut out to be a party leader (but imagine how they WOULD have torn themselves apart had Clarke won)

then Howard….well, yuk. But not a bad stopgap leader at holding them together I suppose.

Ah! How hilarious it is to watch people accusing the Tories of having “zany” or “sinister” (which…erm…surely means, or at least implies “left-wing” allies (hmmm. None quite as out-there or obnoxious as the current governing party in Spain, I’m sure; and let’s not talk about the really extremely dubious Italian party that the Tories have now detached themselves from) The ODS, in particular, strike me as an obvious match for the British Tories.

So, I think their forging a new group in the EP was a brave and principled move, and one, although I am no Tory, wholeheartedly support. It’s hilarious to watch people smearing them….essentially, as far as I can tell, for not being the same as New Labour.

Scary how much Morgoth and I agree on…

I’m no fan of the EPP – but if you’re on the centre right and you want to play, its the place to be.

For example, there are some terrible pieces of EU legislation going through at the moment, that the EPP is bound to play a significant role in shaping. The Tories won’t be able to bring their influence to bear there at all – weirdly, the LibDems are actually players in this field!

the voice of balance and moderation, as ever. My geography is shocking, is EUSSR anywhere near EUrabia?

The EUrabia thesis is unproven at best. What some people attribute as a deliberate policy is actually just a natural consequence of liberal self-loathing.

The EUSSR is a very accurate description of the EU. When you look at the motivations and the plans behind its formation and history, the sheer amount of lies told by EUfanatics (I’m especially looking at you, Ted Heath you treacherous lying cunt who should be exhumed and your rotten moldy corpse hung drawn and quartered in front of parliment), the complete lack of democracy (and indeed the utter concept for democracy from day one c.f. Lisbon), the utter malevolence of EU fanatics and their plans for a totalitarian superstate.

Every single Eurocrat should be hung, drawn and quartered for crimes against free humanity. Every single EU office should be flattened. Every single EUlackey in the UK such as Nick Clegg, Dennis Cunting MacShane and the rest of the treacherous quisling abble should be put on trial for treason against this country.

The EU and its apologists can go fuck itself.

The Tories won’t be able to bring their influence to bear there at all

That’s like saying a drowning man should stay drowning because he is in a position to swallow the entire sea and reduce the water level enough to rescue himself.

Oh, David T, despite clearly being an idealist of sorts, you are sacrificing principles (or long-term vision) for short-term pragmatism and sectarian side-taking.

O tempora o mores!

Venichka, the Tories don’t even have anywhere near a majority of parliamentary seats in the UK minus Scotland currently so there is no guarantee they will in the future.

I remember John Major saying that if Scotland became independent then the Tories would be electorally undefeatable in the rest of the UK. The 1997 election proved him to be wrong, and then some, as Labour had enough English MPs to have a parliamentary majority let alone with its Scottish and Welsh MPs.

I have no doubt that, had John MCain won, there would have been a cranky and deranged Left movement to disqualify and remove him because he was born in Panama. Peter Tatchell would have “raised questions” about the matter in The Guardian.

Morgoth,

What’s your problem, it’s just Brussels doing to the UK what London did to the North for decades…

Red Deathy, the North of England is a shithole and should be left to its own devices or depopulated and turned into a National Park. But it is an inherent part of the country.

The EU on the other hand is trying to do by stealth what Germany failed to do by force in 1939-1945.

I broadly share Morgoth’s views on the EU, albeit with a bit less frothing around the mouth-it is not democratic in any meaningful way, deeply corrupt and aspires to be totalitarian and to erase national sovereignty against the will of the majority of the various populations, brooking no genuine dissent.

Give me a trading bloc and nothing more. The treatment of the Irish over Lisbon – “Now look here Paddy, you got it wrong the first time, so you are going to keep voting until you get it right!” -is disgraceful and shocking to me.

However I could not help but smile at the EU’s own commitments being used to defend EU citizens in Israel against Hamas rockets:

Israeli Brits want EU to fund protection from Gaza rockets

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1115621.html

I suppose the EU will wriggle out of it somehow but I will be amused to watch them as they do…

B

And when, oh when, I hear you cry, did the people of Chipping Sodbury get a refeerendum on entering into the UK? It was that Stalinist Alfred of Wessex, who forceably, and without the people’s consent, merged (or Anschlussed) the Saxon Kingdoms into England (or the Mercian Empire, as it should be known). When will this Winschestercrats learn that the good folk of Upleatham don’t want to be ruled by their dictats, (cont. pg. 94, passim, ad nauseam)…

“Bush is a nazi who planned the 911 attacks as an excuse to occupy the Muslim world because Jews/Israel/Halliburton told him to”.

Ah, wonderful. A Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory.

Red Deathy, well, let’s decentralize the British state then, as well as either getting the EU to actually enforce its (well, actually adopted from someone else…) stated but much abused principle of “subsidiarity”; either that or we leave it.

The EU on the other hand is trying to do by stealth what Germany failed to do by force in 1939-1945.

What, kill and enslave millions of people between the Atlantic and the Urals?

The Lisbon Treaty must be worse than I thought.

“Bush is a nazi who planned the 911 attacks as an excuse to occupy the Muslim world because Jews/Israel/Halliburton told him to”.

I honestly believe it not a fringe view on the Left. Perfectly nice people who I have known for years have said this to me.

Yes, me too.

Professional people – not student nutters.

Red Deathy, well, let’s decentralize the British state then, I reckon that’s already what he wants to do, along with everywhere else too.
Trouble with centralising the economy down to financial services in london is that eventually it’s going to hit home that india and china have rocket scientists too who can bundle rubbish mortgages into triple A bonds and sell them to each other at least as well as the smugs in the square mile can but for much lower wages.

Oh no comment from me about American politics, I’ve thought it was barmy beyond understanding since the uproar about Clinton’s extra curricula activities…

Rodent: You really think? I would’ve thought it was obvious that official disinformation campaigns, war, torture, murder and clandestine abductions and detention are significantly more objectionable than state-funded health programmes, what with the former being a common feature in banana republics and tinpot dictatorships and the latter belonging to touchy-feely European democracies.

While the most obvious thing about Rodent has always been that oppression makes no impression on him in even the slightest sense and any people are liberated from even the most extreme oppression, his absolute hatred for the liberators wouldn’t be even slightly ameliorated by the good they’d accomplished, by any hope that they had created – the state of humanity means much less than nothing to him, though I suppose he counts deaths in wars in some cases, but not in most.

However it might shed some light on what thought process goes on behind his absurd lack of interest in the state of humanity to notice that odd phrase “official disinformation campaigns” in his rant. That’s the one phrase I can’t put any even slightly sane narrative to. Is Rodent a troother?

“Perfectly nice people who I have known for years have said this to me.”

Indeed, it’s quite a shock, otherwise normal, decent people are coming out with this nonsense, when it happens to me I have to immediately end the conversation and walk away.

If I don’t it gets a little “difficult” because I really cannot stand conspiracy nuts, I really can’t.

That’s the one phrase I can’t put any even slightly sane narrative to.

er – WMD? Saddam is mates with bin Laden?

To compare him with Hitler is silly and wrong but to claim that “during the Bush years, the mainstream Left went absolutely bonkers” is just as ridiculous and displays a kind of prissy puritanism also evident in your objection to Compass inviting Lucas to their meeting.

It never occurred to me that expecting respectable people to avoid degenerating to florid raving drooling madmen in their political discourse was a form of puritanism. Wow that may be my first puritanical belief. I should start selling sanity chastity belts.

David T
In reality, the cocktail that the US Right is drinking – racism directed at Obama”

So any attempt to attack Obama is racism. Doesn’t seem quite fair.

“turning up to rallies with guns”

going to a different venue as the President, to a different meeting, with a weapon in a state which allows weapons to be carried openly is not a crime. This is just bullshit David. NO ONE has tried to take a gun to an Obama event. just keep repeating the lefty-lies though.

“an extreme position on abortion”

As opposed to the position on the left, that left does not begin until the mother decides it does, that no longer means first breath. A living aborted baby is placed in a stainless bowl and allowed to die. Roe vs. Wade has polarized the debate and is occupied by the most vocal 10% on either side.

‘creationism’

Not exclusive to the right. It has significant support on the left. Nuts I know, but there you go.

‘hyperbole over tax/healthcare’

you ain’t seen nothing yet.

“tolerance of links with white supremacists”

As opposed to the lefts support of Black supremacists.

– will keep the Right out of power for a decade or more.”

There will be a wipe-out in 2010 in the House.

By the way, didn’t someone who runs this site post a piece saying that the EU is just like Stalin’s USSR a week or two ago? Funny how that’s not evidence of being a drooling madman.

David T says being anti-abortion is”extreme”

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100011015/wanting-a-referendum-on-lisbon-is-extremism-says-david-miliband/

David Milliband says wanting a referendum on Lisbon is “extreme”

Well, long live “extremism” (a meaningless term) in that case

The sooner New Labour are removed from office the better: they are incipient totalitarians, and have proved this repeatedly. Absolute scum. Destroyers of our society.

This is worth repeating :-
“You do know that Labour is in bed with even worse nutters than the Tories could ever be?”

Some of Labour allies killed British people.
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2009/05/labours-unsavory-allies-.html

It never occurred to me that expecting respectable people to avoid degenerating to florid raving drooling madmen in their political discourse was a form of puritanism. Wow that may be my first puritanical belief. I should start selling sanity chastity belts.

David was referring to mainstream left opinion, which from where I am sitting was on the whole strongly, resolutely and angrily opposed to Bush for many very good reasons but, notwithstanding the odd hyperbolic flourish to which any of us with strong opinions can be prone, did not degenerate into florid raving drooling madmen.

Kudos to all the resident anti-federalists for their unstinting devotion to the cause.

there are some terrible pieces of EU legislation going through at the moment, that the EPP is bound to play a significant role in shaping. The Tories won’t be able to bring their influence to bear there at all – weirdly, the LibDems are actually players in this field!

And just how, Mr T, will the EPP ‘play a significant role in shaping’ this EU ‘legislation’? What mechanisms will be brought to bear in the Europarl to fashion this wondrous phenomenon?

Let’s just accept that the Tripartite liberal consensus will not be broken with a Cameron govt. No diversity depts. will be closed; no religious discrimination legislation will be revoked; record levels of immigration will continue unabated; the ‘forces’ of law and order will continue to be hamstrung by the liberal establishment…and Britain’s hard-won freedoms will be sacrificed for the international socialist movement’s collective wet dream: Europa.

Ha! And as for that cretinous hypocrite and professional windbag Billy Bragg, if he feels so enriched by the vibrant diversity of Barking…why does he live in Dorset?

I’m sure I saw a news item a few days ago, that a Portugese politican had been elected as President of Europe, but I can’t find any dtrace of teh news story now. No doubt he is a disgraceful rightwinger (if it’s true), but at least he is not Blair. Incidentally, I see that that Egyptian who wanted to burn Hebrew books didn’t get the UNESCO post; it went to a perfectly nice Bulgarian lady.

WMD? Saddam is mates with bin Laden?

Sigh, I could write an essay on the deliberate, dishonest pose of naivety in politics.

I paid attention to what was being said in Washington at the time by policy makers and advisers and I was under no misapprehension that we were going into Iraq after bin Laden nor that WMDs were important for anything other than getting approval in the UN.

As for it being disinformation, everyone agrees that the WMD line is one that was sincerely believed. Saddam himself promoted the idea that he had it, though after capture he claimed it was a lie to scare Iran…

The WMD scare was a British phenomenon with Tony Blair.

Americans were more worried about whether Saddam would one day have nukes than about what WMDs he had right then.

Myself I was somewhat worried that there was an element of fascist Saddam worship in the Arab street, that the dream of a conquest could find Saddam as the hero and he was a more capable conquerer than bin Lauden could ever be. And perhaps, more heartless. The pictures of the Kurds killed by chemical weapons, children died on their bicycles whole neighborhoods dead 3000-5000 in that attack… 100000 Iraqis dead of chemical weapons in the Iran Iraq war.

But the reason to support the war was to try to create something better in Iraq and hope that tyranny in the middle east can be destabilized. As we see the beginning of the fall of Iran, does that seem so far fetched?

Come off it!

‘Opposition to Bush’ went well beyond (for example) calling for due process and review of detentions of non state combattants etc.

It extended, for example, to attending rallies organised by terrorists and Communists.

David was referring to mainstream left opinion, which from where I am sitting was on the whole strongly, resolutely and angrily opposed to Bush for many very good reasons but, notwithstanding the odd hyperbolic flourish to which any of us with strong opinions can be prone, did not degenerate into florid raving drooling madmen.

Where on earth have you been for eight years? I distinctly remember Al Gore screeching (in Tennessee no less) that George W. Bush “betrayed us, betrayed our country!”

“Shaykh Abdur-Raheem Green” – as you are not Mr Green, please don’t post as him. It might confuse a stupid person.

Oops I meant to type 100000 Iranians dead of chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war.

But the reason to support the war was to try to create something better in Iraq and hope that tyranny in the middle east can be destabilized.
Thank you Josh Scholar for stating it so clearly and succinctly. Whether you were for or against Bush, Cheney, Rice, and Rumsfeld, this is the truth of the matter in a nutshell.

As we see the beginning of the fall of Iran, does that seem so far fetched? Josh, let’s hope you’re right.

I happen to think that Glenn Beck will do most destroy ObamaTrance through highlighting Obama’s radical Marxist associations.

Is Obama a President or a Media Star? When is he going to do some “Presidenting”?

I understand he gave Netanyahu and Abbas a strong talking-to and told them to stand on the naughty step until they behaved better.

Strange how the Left is dying elsewhere and yet trying a revival in the USA through Obamarxism.

(Just bored and vying for Exhibit B by synthesising)

Why is it “racism” to oppose Obama’s healthcare proposals? When the “racist” Americans elected a half-black president, it was never part of the deal that he should be deemed to be right about everything.

Sorry, Mr T.

What were those ‘mechanisms’ again?

If Conservatives here were able to remain as ideologically unaffected by the leftist kulturkampf of the last decade or so, why do so few genuine conservatives hold shadow portfolios? Sure, IDS and his CSJ have been given the nod…at the moment. Where are the Tebbits, the Powells, the ‘New’ Monday Clubbers?

Morgy/Barad

You know fuck all about either the EU or the USSR. You are playing with the words. Whiny wee shitbags

@Andrew Adams
….notwithstanding the odd hyperbolic flourish to which any of us with strong opinions can be prone, did not degenerate into florid raving drooling madmen.

The left don’t have to degenerate to reach that point, it is SOP for most of them.

“As we see the beginning of the fall of Iran, does that seem so far fetched? Josh, let’s hope you’re right.”

I doubt the theocracy is on its way out any time soon. Israel aside, there is no will apparent to deal with them forcefully (and I mean effective sanctions and other non-military action, not necessarily attacking Natanz.) I would like to think that the brutality against the protesters was a sign of weakness by Ahmadinejad and chums but it looks more like impunity to me.

Just as a single example, some EU nations withdrew their representatives to Honduras after the recent virtually bloodless coup. They can do this because Honduras is economically and politically irrelevant (sorry Hondurans but you are).

Meanwhile Ahmadinejad steals an election and his security forces subsequently murder, rape and imprison perhaps tens of thousands of protesters. In this case the EU wants to “maintain dialogue” and so leaves ambassadors in place. The US accepts, only grudgingly mind, the Iranian election results and continues to pursue dialogue (or appeasement perhaps, take your pick) with the clerics and their frontmen.

If I was Ahmadinejad, I would not be scared. His time will come but not yet.

B

Myself I was somewhat worried that there was an element of fascist Saddam worship in the Arab street, that the dream of a conquest could find Saddam as the hero and he was a more capable conquerer than bin Lauden could ever be.

I’m pleaed to see that you’re willing to rehash your boring reasons supporting the Iraq war are worth writing down, but all the same, my point was that you were asking if flyinRodent was referring to 9/11 in his claim about ‘official disinformation campaigns’.

you seemed to think that the Bush admin peddled no such disinformation, but WMD was one such, no matter what you say the Bush admin did peddle it despite it being untrue, and the ‘Saddam loves bin Laden’ one was another official disinformation campaign. the press lapped it all up, but the disinformation came from official sources.

ergo, official disinformation campaign. there you go.

no need for the 9/11 truther insinuations.

“Is Obama a President or a Media Star? When is he going to do some “Presidenting”?”

I kinda appreciated it when he saved our econoomy, destroyed from 8 years of Bush’s policies, from collapse.

Skip

It isn’t my job to tell the Tories which of their nutters they have to sit on in order to persuade ordinary people that it is safe to vote for them again.

However, they seem to have worked it out, all by themselves.

Some of knew in our souls that the chatterers who had so patronizingly congratulated the ‘murkin people for electing our President would accuse them of racism as soon as his poll numbers fell below room temperature. What surprised us was the crudity of the charge.

Is that really Sheik Green?

The EU on the other hand is trying to do by stealth what Germany failed to do by force in 1939-1945.

Welcome back Moggie.

To oppose Obama’s policies is NOT racist and millions of Americans are becoming really put off by these accusations.

which of their nutters they have to sit on in order to persuade ordinary people that it is safe to vote for them again

More votes were cast for Major and co than Blair, which, by your logic, means that, Labour must be filled to the brim with redistribution nutjobs, diversity freaks and ecowackos for them to be so unpopular. But worry not, as the next electorally-mandated reshuffle will salve your liberal conscience again when the Unconservatives come to power.

I’m pleaed to see that you’re willing to rehash your boring reasons supporting the Iraq war are worth writing down, but all the same, my point was that you were asking if flyinRodent was referring to 9/11 in his claim about ‘official disinformation campaigns’.

I have nothing against your argument, but your grammar is reminding me that I’m out of Scotch

Arfur,

What exactly Marxist ideas is Obama doing?

1.Bank bailout- Started by a GOP Administration by GW Bush and Henry Paulson. And continued by Obama, an idea taken fromt he playbook of Milton Friedman who argued that the reason the Great Depression happened in 1929 was because the Fed did not buy up a lot more bonds, norserve as a lender of last resort to failing banks

2.Auto bailout- I highly doubt the GOP or JOhn McCain if elected would have allowed the major industries of highly competitive political states like Ohio and Michigan to simply go under. In a perfect free market world of ideological conservatism, yes but in real world politics, are you kidding me?

3.Health care- I am not a fan of Obamacare but it is hardly socialistic in the sense of the British National Health Service or even a single payer system like Canada. And GOP has lost any credibility attacking Obama on this since they are positiong themselves as the protector of Medicare which is quasi-social democratic. Monty Python could not write this stuff. The GOP attacks Obama for being a socialist yet are trying to tell senior Americans they will protect their Medicare.

It extended, for example, to attending rallies organised by terrorists and Communists.

True. Admittedly the overwhelming majority of attendants were not terrorists or communists, and the message be conveyed was not one of terrorism or communism. But it’s the organisers which are important.

Which is why the supporters of the Iraq war need have no fear for their political souls – because the organisers of that war were all angels, and as pure as the driven snow.

To oppose Obama’s policies is NOT racist and millions of Americans are becoming really put off by these accusations.

Indeed it isn’t, but no one is saying ALL opposition to his policies is based on racism (the only people pushing this line are Republicans), just that some of it from some people probably is

Which is why the supporters of the Iraq war need have no fear for their political souls – because the organisers of that war were all angels, and as pure as the driven snow.

It’s hardly fair, you got to march behind communists and terrorists while David marched behind Tony Blair.

If the queen was involved then at least Linden LaRouche would say she’s a terrorist.

It extended, for example, to attending rallies organised by terrorists and Communists.

You, of course, David T have never sullied yourself by attending a rally or protest organised by communists, have you?

Re:Tidal wave of hate at Obama – perhaps a little strong, I don’t know.

I think there’ll certainly be a major backlash and a dramatic falling of his popularity in the polls when the American underclasses realise he’s not a saint but in fact a real live human being after all.

And of course those who marched against the war came from across the political spectrum, not just the left. And I doubt if most of them knew or cared who organised the marches – the point was to express opposition to the war, not to show solidarity with the wider political opinions of the organisers.

Well, this is damned odd. I’ve made some variant on the perfectly obvious and sane point Bush wasn’t a Nazi by any stretch of the imagination, but war, torture, propaganda and arbitrary detention are obviously more commonly associated with totalitarianism than health insurance is on a number of right wing blogs before.

The point being that while the Nazi comparisons are daft for both Bush and Obama, you could at least say that we associate war, torture, propaganda and arbitrary detention with Hitler. Healthcare, though… Well, you wouldn’t win many points on the “Things You’d Associate With The Third Reich” round in Family Fortunes.

And yet, when I say the same thing here, it’s Exhibit A in the OMFG, aren’t the lefties mental Troofers gallery. The things various people protested the Bush admin for – the secret detention and torture programmes, the hideous bloodbath wars and the ginned-up case for war* to name but a few – aren’t figments of Keith Olbermann’s nasty, liberal imagination. They’re historical facts, events that did actually occur in reality, and if anyone thinks referring to them is crazy, tinfoil trooferism, then I suggest they’re not in a good position to be psychoanalysing anyone.

The point is, the anti-war protesters were largely right, even though a lot of them said stupid things or were nuts. The teabaggers are just fucking idiots. That’s where Gene’s specious argument begins and ends.

*Propaganda campaign – Nobody wants the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud; The weapons are in the area around Tikrit and to the north, east, west and south somewhat; those terrifying aluminium tubes; the model planes that were going to drop a quadrillion litres of anthrax on Dogdick, Alabama; The Niger documents, and so on and so forth in an increasingly idiotic and hysterical manner for a very, very long time indeed.

Andrew Murphy: Do you support the Climate Change bill?

I’m pleased that center-rightists like Charles Johnson are taking on the far-right racists and the crazies. But frankly I’m surprised that Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit– who I thought operated somewhere in the realm of rationality– seems to be lining up with the racists and the crazies.

It’s hardly fair, you got to march behind communists and terrorists while David marched behind Tony Blair.

Or to put it another way, we marched behind George Galloway and you marched behind Dick Cheney. Neither a particularly edifying thought but ultimately of secondary importance to the question of whether invasion of Iraq was the right course of action or not.

my grammar was poor, yes.

I have nothing against your argument

which rather begs the question of why you bothered to ‘counter’ my post – which stated that the Bush admin did indeed wage a campaign of official misinformation in the leadup to, and aftermath of, the Iraq war. This is a demonstrable fact.

If you’ve nothing against that I fail to see why you accused flying rodent of being a ‘9/11 truther’. It was menifestly clear what he was referring to.

“You, of course, David T have never sullied yourself by attending a rally or protest organised by communists, have you?”

Yes, but good sensible communists, rather than bad nasty ones!

Superb post, DavidT

The teabaggers are just fucking idiots.

I object to that.

His time will come

Indeed, he’ll probably be stabbed in the back by a dozen of his closest supporters.

The point is, the anti-war protesters were largely right, even though a lot of them said stupid things or were nuts. The teabaggers are just fucking idiots. That’s where Gene’s specious argument begins and ends.

Which specious argument is that?

good sensible communists,

No such thing. The historical record is absolutely clear on this point.

Bearded nutjob Ayman Al Zawahiri doesn’t like Obama either apparently (maybe he opposes his healthcare agenda):

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=3.0.3803323317

“”God willing, your end will be at the hands of the Muslim nation, so that the world and history will be free of your crimes and lies.”

“Terrorism: Muslims will defeat Obama vows Al-Qaeda no. 2,” from AKI, September 23 (thanks to James):

Rome, 23 Sept. (AKI) – Al-Qaeda’s second in command Ayman al-Zawahiri has issued a new video threat to US president Barack Obama. “Your end will be at the hands of the Muslim nation,” al-Zawahiri said in the video, which was posted on militant websites.

“After Bush, thanks to Allah, after all these years that America failed, it has presented a new, hypocritical face. Smiling at us, but stabbing us with the same dagger that Bush used,” said al-Zawahiri, referring to former US president George W. Bush

“God willing, your end will be at the hands of the Muslim nation, so that the world and history will be free of your crimes and lies.”

Al-Zawahiri renewed Al-Qaeda’s earlier calls for Muslims to join a ‘holy war’ or Jihad, urging them not to wait for their ‘traitor’ governments or spiritual leaders to take action.

“Who has not waged Jihad as a youngster will certainly not do so when they are old,” he said….”

B

Oh, and that would be mainly because those who gave the impression of being “good sensible communists” were EVIL, which is a far worse condition of the soul than being a “nutter”

Surely I count as a good sensible communist, and I]if I don’t I’ll cry…

Sorry, Red, you strike me as being more of a nutter…(which, unlike some around here, I don’t regard as an insult)

(sub-category of nutter: Utopian. Thomas More is da man)

Ve3n,

at least I’m not evil, so I can hold back the tears…

where did that ‘lucy lips’ post addressed to sunny hundal disappear to?

Obama just got his House Points with me. In his speech to the UN he said that the vitriolic anti-Israel rhetoric at the UN doesn’t help the I/P peace. Well said Mr President. Maybe he is a plain speaker and maybe there is a glimmer of hope in there.

Seems like he got the message.

where did that ‘lucy lips’ post addressed to sunny hundal disappear to?

Care to summarise its contents? *intrigued*

Glen Beck isn’t on the right, he is a populist that is only out for self-gain. Being the focal point for the nutters is his gig right now.

And btw the left is still just as angry and nutty in the US as they were under Bush. They have beaten the crap out of a black man attending a tea party, bitten the end of someone’s finger off and sent death treats to tea party organisers. Obama is not radical enough for them and they are getting frustrated.

What Johnson seems to be unable to mention is that Larouche types are attending tea party events with vile signs. For those who don’t know Larouche is far left and makes Alex Jones seem sane. We have had trouble with them nationally and at the state-level.

“You have no idea of the tidal wave of insanity and hatred that is going to be unleashed, now. It will take a few months to get going, but it is coming”.

I suppose it’s because of where my server is … the main Google Ad I see on the right side of the page is definitely “an tie” Obama as is another http://www.newsmax.com ad further down.

How much does this site receive for hosting an tie Obama ads eh? Well eh? How much c’mon …. how much?

Care to summarise its contents? *intrigued*

Sunny is speaking at Amnesty event alongside some people from David T’s naughty list.

Maybe Sunny withdrew as soon as LL pointed out he would have to stand near Yvonne Ridley, hence post redundant and removed as if it never existed, an un-post if you will.

B

Fraid to say that it was a dumb-assed Manichean implied guilt-even-by-marginal-act-of association (which only ever works in one direction) “will you take part in my do-you-not-condemnathon” post of the kind that so disgraces HP every so often and embarrasses some of us who otherwise quite like some aspects of the Weltanschaaung of this Place.

Sunny is speaking at Amnesty event alongside some people from David T’s naughty list.

Given how Toad of Toad Hall is aping the talking points of those types recently, why would I not be surprised?

Indeed, Ven. No doubt David T will be giving Lucy Lips a severe dressing down later – a bit like that scene in Fight Club.

Did someone point out that David T was an erstwhile drinking mate of Gilad?

Why “Toad of Toad Hall”?

Talking of going bonkers, anyone watching Qadaffi at the UN?

cjcjc, ask Alec.

“Talking of going bonkers, anyone watching Qadaffi at the UN?”

Louis Farrakhan’s Nation of Islam are demonstrating outside in support of Gaddafi against a group representing Lockerbie survivors. The latter group are apparently pretty pissed off with the Scots as well…

B

Whoops! Obama just lost all his House Points again!

“Obama Uses U.N. Speech To Fire Broadside at Israel”

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/23/obama-world-dont-expect-america-fix/

“Obama: U.S. Does Not Recognize ‘Legitimacy of Continued Israeli Settlements’

Go get ‘im Beck!

“Talking of going bonkers, anyone watching Qadaffi at the UN?”

Apparently, the highlight reel is going to be a hoot.

-Why did this Israeli kill the killer of Kennedy?
-Free Noriega!
-keeps referring to Our President as “my son.”
- medicine should be free to the world

All in all, this is the perfect forum for Our President.

@Dave T.

LOL.

To label Charles Johnson as centre-right is ridiculous,he’s the same as you,far left of centre.

Keep it honest Dave,the lower of the two images you have used on this post is fake.The upper of the two images is the original. Please remove the lower image or mark it as a photoshop.Why lie?

Please remove the lower image or mark it as a photoshop.Why lie?

What is the source of that image, Dave?

Every political party and alliance has it’s hotheads and extremists. Just as it has it’s sages. Generally, the latter folk are capable of discerning the signs when their party is facing a long term on the sidelines. They tend to accept that, and it sends them into a mode of dormancy. When you are going to lose the election anyway, why waste your ammunition trying to suppress the nutters in your party? Let them bare their bums in front of a disgusted electorate. Let them be revolting. They are the enemy after all, and you do not give wise counsel to the enemy. During the Bush administration, the looney lefties in the US were getting naked against the war, and proclaiming the victims of 9/11 were all “little Eichmanns” who deserved it. Sensible mainstream Dems just ignored them.

After the next UK general election, the left will be sidelined, probably for 8 to ten years. The far left will go apeshit.
And when the blowhards have blown themselves up, the wiser heads among the labour movement will be in a position to start revitalising the centre left, and regaining electoral traction.

Charles attack on McCain (which preceded any attacks on him) would have more credibility if he for weeks hadn’t been banning people if they disagreed with him and hadn’t suddenly had an Epiphany concerning him because he supported someone Charles was feuding with.

Details

http://datechguy.wordpress.com/2009/09/23/i-have-a-question-for-charles-johnson-about-robert-stacy-mccain/

and

http://datechguy.wordpress.com/2009/09/20/datechguy-banned-at-lgf/

I would also point out that the Speaker of the US house attacked protesters as “Nazi” before any of this stuff too.

I pose a question, given the fact that 1% of any given population subset is likely to be nuts how many people carrying dumb signs taint an entire group, and for the sake of this question I’ll even stipulate the 75k that Charles maintains vs more accurate estimates and counts that put the number between 6 & 15 times more. See:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/more-912-crowd-data-yeah-it-was-big/

for a better estimate not driven by Beck Syndrome or 6 degrees of Beck syndrome.

Chaps, Charles is indeed centre-right. He’s a bit gullable when it comes to Islam (but wholly correct that the way to oppose it is NOT to line up with fascists of any type), but he has his head screwed on correctly regarding a) science b) the fringe right c) conspiracy nuts d) abortion and e) many other issues.

The way forward for the right is not Beck et al but rather Johnson et al.

Oh, link to this thread from their thread.

You build majorities by finding common ground and getting votes therein.

With respect one can disagree with Beck on some issues without throwing him and people who agree with him under the bus.

Charles has a personal grudge with Beck and that has clouded a lot of what he has done (and NOT DONE) since April and what he is NOT saying these days is an interesting case study. It’s speaks volumes.

Is Venichka the same person as Benjamin? Just wondering, like.

Scarily, the far right IS the right.

Is Venichka the same person as Benjamin? Just wondering, like.

No. He’s the reincarnation of Evelyn Waugh (with added brackets).

I have no doubt that, had John MCain won, there would have been a cranky and deranged Left movement to disqualify and remove him because he was born in Panama.

The Birther movement was already going before the Democratic Convention. There was no parallel campaign against McCain at any time.

I have done a google of sites that said McCain was ineligible to stand. I have found 1 leftist site (Comments From Left Field), 1 libertarian (Nolan Chart), 2 Christian conspiracy sites (Ben Witherington and Godlike Productions), and 4 right-wing sites (the Ron Paul War Room, America Wants To Know, Alex Jones’s Prison Planet and A Conservative Edge).

So those who smeared McCain over eligibility turn out by and large to be folks with the same ideas as those who smeared McCain’s supporters in open primaries. What a surprise.

Gene:

I’m pleased that center-rightists like Charles Johnson are taking on the far-right racists and the crazies. But frankly I’m surprised that Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit– who I thought operated somewhere in the realm of rationality– seems to be lining up with the racists and the crazies.

Only if you’re willing to let Charles Johnson define who the racists and crazies are.

Charles Johnson is feuding with virtually every big-name conservative blog in the U.S.

I submit that either all these blogs (their authors and commenters, that is) are chock full of racists and crazies, or perhaps, just perhaps, Charles Johnson isn’t as centre-right as you might think he is.

You don’t by any chance believe that, say, Andrew Sullivan can be fairly characterized as a conservative, do you?

With added brackets? But unhinged, presumably.

Charles Johnson is a liar, a slanderer and a jealous little narcissist.

After his “conversion” from the center right, he has turned into another Ariana Huffington. Today he defends Acorn, parrots slander from Media Matters and acts like a child in the sandbox when anybody dares challenge his wisdom.

He calls people racists, Nazis and fascists and when confronted on his blog, he bans posters making Cif look like a liberal forum and example of open debate.

He was never a conservative and judging from his recent attacks it seems he has co-opted a Alinsky method of denouncing anybody even remotely different than his self imposed dogma on LGF.

He is a tinpot tyrant of his little green world and wants to paint anybody daring to read or visit other blogs as racists, Islamophobes and white supremacists. Hotair is racist (owned by an Asian lady), Atlas Shrugs is Fascist (owed by a Jewish mother of 4) Pajamas Media is white supremacist. Ann Coulter is a white supremacist and Geert Wilders is a fascist.

He has slandered Robert Spencer because allegedly some nasty people added him to their facebook list.
He called Pamela Geller “postergirl of Eurofascists” because they differed on reporting about a Belgian Party. All the while he lets comments sitting on his blog referring to her in cleavage and fermale reputation.
He attacked Michelle Malkin, Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter as racists. He called Bill O’Reilly a scumbag and blamed him for the death of an abortion doctor.
His attacks are not limited to right wing personalities. He attacked a 17 year old X-MUslim convert as a liar when she stated under oath her parents, who belong to a pro Hezboolah and Muslim Brotherhood Mosque, may kill her if she is forced to return to them. Needless to say the parents already sold their business and made plans to leave the country just like their daughter alleged. Let alone the fact that any parent who enlists the Muslim Brotherhood and CAIR to lawyer up to force their daughter in her 18th year to come back home, by force if necessary.
He also alleged that Rush Limbaugh called for segregated buses when it was evident from LGFs own video he said no such thing. Anybody familiar with the English language would have understood what Limbaugh said.
He is obsessed with Glenn Beck in an infantile and creepy way analyzing his every word and attempting to demonstrate Beck is calling for a violent overthrow of the US government.
Johnson wants to paint Beck as a paranoid conspiracy nut, even alleged Beck was claiming FEMA was planning concentration camps in the US. Needless to say, the opposite was true. Beck spent a whole episode debunking crazy right wing conspiracy theories, including the one about Fema camps. But don’t let the evidence get in the way of a good slander.
A year ago, they both supported the same presidential candidate, Romney.
He attacked Pajamas media, Greet Wilders and Sarah Palin while he defended and obfuscated for Van Jones when Jones was revealed to have signed a 911 Truth document and tried to demonstrate that Beck was a Troofer because Troofers showed up at a 912 Rally.

Well I walked through a legalize Marijuana rally a couple of years ago about 5 911 ers showed up, walked through and left. So in Johnsons world, all attending the rally were Truthers. Including me, who just had to walk past it to get to my destination. (It was during work hours lol)
Similarly all Tea Parties are racist militia events because out of a million people in a dozen cities a few show up with ugly signs or carrying guns (which is legal in the USA).

Stacey MCCain was an unknown until this spat with Johnson. McCain vehemently denies Johnsons charges and calls them libelous. I honestly don’t know, never being familiar with McCain, and surely would not know based on information coming from Johnson. According to him, everybody is a racist and fascist or a creationist these days. And anybody attempting to defend against these Stalinist accusations on his blog gets banned in seconds. So really it is a futile exercise to debate him or challenge him unless his poison makes it into other blogs where somehow his words carry some authority. They should not. Anything he alleges needs checking. As otherwise those running with his accusations will also look like the JackAss he is.

I will not make an ideological defense of Beck or Limbaugh or anybody for that matter. But calling people racist and violent needs evidence and the mere quoting of opinions no matter how nutty they may appear does not do the job when we re supposed to look for “subtle subliminal signs” only the master Jedi Johnson can detect with his superpower senses.
Glenn Beck may be OTT. So what. He exposed Van Jones and Acorn.
Acorn was defended by JOhnson while Jon Stewart shared the majority view which was one of shock and dismay. I don’t know who would not be shocked seeing people on taxpayer dime instructing a pimp how to import child sex slaves into the US and house them under a government program designed for low income home buyers.

And this can go on and on. It is really sad. Because most conservatives would want nothing more than to purge madmen from their ranks. As do Liberals who probably don’t want Trots, black separatists and Jihadis being linked to them.
But this process needs to be careful and evidence based as otherwise not only careers are ruined but also the process of making society better by exposing the real maggots. These baseless accusations or accusations based in innuendo or coming from tainted or biased sources need thorough examination and not dogmatic groupthink as Johnson imposes.

How can the truth be found in anything if anybody doubting or challenging the accuser becomes the next criminal?

One would think such processes ended with the death of Mao but they live on and especially when coupled with the commercial competition blogs have found themselves in (as they ascended from obscurity into real media), these processes need extra scrutiny and not bowing belief and cowering at the sight of the accusation itself.
The abusing of terms like racist and bigot in the advancement of either commercial or political interest with disregard to what consequences false accusations can entail for the accused debases the whole debate and offers a great disservice to all who fight bigotry or face bigotry daily in their lives.

He is obsessed with Glenn Beck…

armaros, I’m not sure you should be throwing words like “obsessed” at other people.

““The other night, Glenn Beck, the rightwing USA tv star said that John McCain would have been worse for the country then Obama.

Kinda gives you an idea of how far of the deep end the Right has gone.
John McCain by the way has a lifetime conservtaive voting record of nearly 82%”

There is some truth to what Beck is saying. I do not share his view, but see where he is coming from.
I supported and rooted for Obama during the democratic primaries.
Only after the revelations of his nasty associations did I decide to support McCain.
But many conservatives said similar things. Ann Coulter also said she would vote for Hilary (though not sure if she has) because she felt Hilary would have been ruthless in pursuing terrorists. A view I happen to share also.
But what Beck meant was that Obama allows America to see the dangers of progressive leftism as the “rock” has been turned over because of Obama s left wing agenda out for all to see while McCain would have coasted through in the center with all these dirty secrets about fanatical Left wing movements being left under the carpet only to morph into something even more dangerous in the future than its current form co-opted by the Obama administration.

Beck is merely stating that Obama is a necessary lesson to America which would have otherwise not been thought had he not been elected president.

Not a crazy statement at all.

“armaros, I’m not sure you should be throwing words like “obsessed” at other people”

Why is that?

what is wrong with “obsessed” in particular given that I used other words as well.

curious.

Meh, I haven’t been on Charles site for a few years now.

I would say he started out as a liberal with a touch of xenophobia (that he had the sense to hide) which gave him the skepticism it took to be right about the Islamists immediately.

He went overboard in hating the Democrats for dropping the ball on the war on terror and declared his absolute loyalty to the Republicans while agreeing with none of their cultural agenda or any of their policies other than the War on Terror.

After a few years of hanging with the Republicans, it become obvious that Republicans can be nutcases too and neither side deserves undivided loyalty.. anyway given a better choice of presidents he probably jumped back to Obama.

I was very pleased to see him attack racists and xenophobes. The signs that he had been a xenophobe himself once were subtle and I won’t go into them. I would say he’s redeemed himself.

He’s an intelligent man doing a job I don’t envy at all.

He called Pamela Geller “postergirl of Eurofascists” because they differed on reporting about a Belgian Party

The party in question was the far-right Vlaams Belang, of which she is a vocal supporter. She also clashed with LGF over her participation in an event sponsored by the German Party, Pro-Köln, the successor of the Deutsche Liga für Volk und Heimat, a group closely associated with the extreme-right DVU:

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/04/25/pro-koln-is-a-fascist-organisation/

There is also the matter of Geller’s espousal of the extreme right in Serbia and her denial of Srebrenica and all other atrocities committed by Serbian forces in Bosnia and Kosova.

As you can see, Ms Geller is not slow at accusing anyone she doesn’t like of being a fascist:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4RNWN_enGB246GB247&q=fascist+site%3aatlasshrugs2000.typepad.com

Keep it honest Dave,the lower of the two images you have used on this post is fake.The upper of the two images is the original. Please remove the lower image or mark it as a photoshop.Why lie?
It’s no more a “lie” than a Private Eye cover with added balloons is a “lie”. A call to delete the lower image only is misguided and wrongheaded. The lower image is no more offensive than the upper one.

Joe Camel
23 September 2009, 9:21 pm

Keep it honest Dave,the lower of the two images you have used on this post is fake.The upper of the two images is the original. Please remove the lower image or mark it as a photoshop.Why lie?
It’s no more a “lie” than a Private Eye cover with added balloons is a “lie”. A call to delete the lower image only is misguided and wrongheaded. The lower image is no more offensive than the upper one.

Looks like you know as much about honesty as David T?

Where did you get the lower image from Dave?

Charles Johnson center right? Hahahahaha! Good one.

hasan prishtina

where did Geller deny Sebrenica?

Unless you believe the Bosnian Muslims or the Kosovars were angels leaving only the Serbs as the ethnic cleansing rapist maniacs.
I am way to realistic, and some may say cynical, to believe such nonsensical one sided bullshit.

I got news for you.

All sides were scum in that war and all sides were responsible for the conflict to varying degrees. Let alone the fact that the leader of the Bosnian Muslims, Aliya Izedbegovic was a Handzar SS officer during the war under the “spiritual inspiration” of the Nazi puppet Jerusalem Mufti. Leaders of the other sides were also actual closets full of skeletons. I make no apologies for any of them. The neo Nazi backed Croats and the Iran-Jihad backed Bosniaks and the Russo-fascist backed Serbs all can look at each other for another 100 years and heap the scorn for having laid the ground for another round of morbidity to follow avenging the crimes of the last one.

And did she or did she (Geller) not attend Koln?
Johnson claims Geller “canceled” because of him.
Like the rooster claiming credit for the sunrise.

And don’t reporters cover events as their duty?

VB is a tricky one because it is a party mired in an internal Belgian conflict as old as Belgium itself.
But “Far Right” is a label many of these parties carry under the assumption that they re also racist or Fascist.

VB is anti-Islamic and anti-Immigration so surely faces the scorn of the Left who wants to paint any party vocal against Jihad and Jihad accommodating multiculturalism as “fascist” or “Nazi’. Once that label is affixed, people are running and voila, a successful denouncing has just occurred. VB is a party in the middle of the age old Franco-Flemish civil war of words tearing apart Belgium. I let Belgians resolve that internal problem for themselves. But for the record, Johnson based his anti VB stance on the information of mainly one blogger. Then he connected the dots and did what he accuses Glenn Beck every day, has drawn up a “conspiracy proof” map supporting his allegation.

Johnson alleged that VB is Nazi because the Vlams Blok which it took root from was pro Nazi during the war.
That is not enough for proof. The Democrats before the war were allied with the KKK and many members of both parties in the US held glorifying views of Nazi Germany. Not to mention segregation. Does that make them KKK or pro Nazi today?
Or the UK Tories who supported Apartheid SA?
Is then Cameron a racist also?
How about the British and French Left who played interference for the Soviets while the Soviets rolled their tanks into Budapest and Prague?
Does that make all of them KGB commies today?

Hardly.

Almost all leftist parties in Europe trace back to either Soviet or pro soviet parties of the cold war. Especially in the East where they used to be the Soviet backed puppet regimes. Still, today most are normal social democratic parties having washed the soviet slime off of themselves.

So if we want to apply these standards, fine with me.
I never belonged to any such party so can claim myself free of any guilt. But then lets apply those standards fairly and upon all not just a selection made by an American blogger colossally ignorant of European politics or European history even. Unfortunately, Europe is a rainbow of shades of gray. That is not news to Euros.

So in having a disagreement about where some parties stand or not stand need not be soiled with labels like “you are like them, fascist scum”.

This is my point. To throw these adjectives so liberally demeans their meaning and cheapens the experience of those who really suffer from racism or fascism.

“The Birther movement was already going before the Democratic Convention. There was no parallel campaign against McCain at any time. ”

No because all the nuttery was steered toward Sarah Palin who, like an accused witch in Salem 1644, was accused of pretending her own pregnancy, torturing animals, denying abortions to rape victims, banning books from libraries and refuting evolution. Obscene T-Shirts were made of her, she was hung in effigy and her kids were not spared the scorn either. A first in presidential campaigns.
Not to mention her husband who was painted as a right wing militia nut fascist and her kid who was called a slut and trailer park trash.

And to top it off, this campaign persisted well into 2009 despite all the above allegations being debunked as lies and smears.
At the same time, John McCain was called an adulterer and his campaign a racist mob calling for the murder of Obama.

Please.

The birther campaign was started by Hilary as was the “Obama is a Muslim” thing. They ran the turban photo and the Kenyan birth conspiracies.
The fact that he never actually produced a birth certificate or any record of his schooling and changed names twice before he turned 40 didn’t help the situation.

“The signs that he had been a xenophobe himself once were subtle and I won’t go into them. I would say he’s redeemed himself. ”

True that it is great if one is redeemed. I didn’t know this about him.
One would think a Jazz musician is devoid of any racist tendencies.
But I have seen no evidence of him being a racist in the past or the present.
This is news to me and I am not convinced this to be true.
But lets assume for arguments sake that it is true, may explain his obsessive crusade to purge and cleanse.

When one acts like an X-smoker wanting to persecute all smokers and those who do not support his persecution of all smokers as Cancer itself needs to be seen in the context of one s inner struggles instead of some new found enlightenment.

“my demons are your demons.. so you re demon for not seeing what I m seeing..” Is not a healthy form of debate or self improvement.

X-smokers want to ban smoking like if it were Heroin or Meth.

I go by the proverb:

“There is no virtue without temptation”

So make sure you don’t crave a cig before you punish others for what you see as the same in you. It often may just not be.

Anyway, cjcjc, “toad of toad hall” is so-named because of a) his frequent habit by driving though a thread like Toad of Toad Hall tootling through the french countryside and b) his sheer and utter pomposity and ego, like said Toad.

where did Geller deny Sebrenica?

Well, how about:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/we-bombed-g-i-j.html

And then the following are approvingly cited by Atlas Shrugs:

http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=232#more-232

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=1986%22%20href=%22http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=1986%22%3Ehttp://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=1986

Both of these reached through links on Atlas Shrugged. This took less than ten seconds to find on the internet.

Unless you believe the Bosnian Muslims or the Kosovars were angels leaving only the Serbs as the ethnic cleansing rapist maniacs.

No-one claims the Bosniaks or the Kosovars are angels. Gellner, on the other hand, believes they are Islamist murderers bent for decades on the genocide of the Holy Serbian nation whose only crime was to wish to live in an ethnically pure Serbia from the Aegean to the Adriatic. Gellner mocks the suffering of the Bosniaks and Kosovars and shows hostility towards those who take any view other than that espoused by extreme Serbian nationalists. Her views are seen as eccentric, to say the least, even by mainstream Serbian commentators.

Aliya Izedbegovic was a Handzar SS officer

These claims have been exhaustively examined, not least by the Yugoslav communist secret police. Izetbegović was a member of the Mladi Muslimani and the Partisans, who fought the Germans. As with the slurs about Tudjman (for whom I have no time), there is no substance to these stories.

the ethnic cleansing rapist maniacs.

There is, nevertheless, a great deal of evidence that the VJ and the VRS used rape as a weapon of war both in Bosnia and in Kosova. It is also true that the Serbian government and the media under its control spread a very large number of stories of rapes of Serbs by Albanians in good ol’ Jim Crow fashion (which fit nicely with the segregation they practiced). These fantasies were conclusively disproved by Vesna Pešić who showed that the Albanian rate for rape was negligable, with virtually no cases involving Serbs. The other way round was a different matter.

Of course there is a history of those who accuse others of doing what they themselves practice on an industrial scale as shown by Kesić, Bracewell, Mertus, Kershaw, Weidenfeld and many others. Let us pause a moment to remember those Republicans who were interested in the truth rather than hoary propaganda and weep for the party of Bob Dole…

VB is a tricky one because it is a party mired in an internal Belgian conflict as old as Belgium itself.

I’m not sure whether this represents an insult to the Flemish people, complete lack of knowledge and naivete about Belgian history and politics or far-right spin. No mention of its forbears in the openly Nazi VNV, the chief collaborators with the Germans in Flanders. No mention of the VB’s strong early participation with Flemish Waffen SS veterans. No mention of VB members’ regular participation as hosts at the annual European Nazi gathering at Diksmuide since the VB’s foundation. No mention that it has a youth organization that parades in lederhosen with flag and drums, just like the Hitler Youth – the annual gathering on its website features a speaker from the reconstituted Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging. No mention of VB members’ physical attacks against (non-Muslim) Congolese. No mention of the (then) VB’s vice-president’s denial of the Holocaust and calling the Anne Frank diary a hoax. No mention of the legal judgements against the party and its chief members, including Dewinter, detailing its racism and xenophobia.

No mention of the right-wing Flemish Liberals, Christian democrat Flemish Social Christians and Flemish Socialists who have sought the protection of Flemish interests in a country that has often seen the Flemish as second class citizens. No mention of the position of the Catholic Church, or the barely concealed contempt of VB members for the most important institution in Flanders. To make any equivalency between the Flemish interest and the VB is a vile slander on the vast majority of decent Flemish people.

The VB was thoroughly racist long before Jihad was a word in the political lexicon. Then, its hatred was largely directed against Jews and blacks. Today it presents itself to those abroad who don’t know any better as the only party resisting Jihad. Unfortunately for them, the Flemish electorate know differently, which is why they have been receiving quite a battering of late at the expense of the non-racist Lijst Dedecker. It is revealing that, having found their views on issues other than Islam, Wilders will have nothing to do with them.

Johnson alleged that VB is Nazi because the Vlams Blok which it took root from was pro Nazi during the war.
That is not enough for proof. The Democrats before the war were allied with the KKK and many members of both parties in the US held glorifying views of Nazi Germany. Not to mention segregation. Does that make them KKK or pro Nazi today?

The Democrats don’t still have large numbers of members who endorse the KKK. The Democrats don’t eulogize members of the German American Bund. The Democrats don’t go to Nazi commemorations. The Democratic Party is not comfortable with members who have convictions for racial assault. The Democrats don’t use people who deny the Holocaust as spokesmen. Young Democrats don’t dress up like the Hitler Youth. The Democrats don’t have legions of fans on Nazi sites like Stormfront.org.

Almost all leftist parties in Europe trace back to either Soviet or pro soviet parties of the cold war. Especially in the East where they used to be the Soviet backed puppet regimes. Still, today most are normal social democratic parties having washed the soviet slime off of themselves.

The British Labour Party, the French, Belgian, Italian and Portuguese Socialist Parties, the Norwegian Social Democrats, Greece’s PASOK, the Dutch PvdA and the Spanish PSOE all ran or participated in governments that participated in NATO. In the case of Britain, France and Spain, they took their countries into NATO. Are you saying that actively participating in NATO is pro-Soviet? The Social Democrats in Switzerland have been members of the Swiss government since 1943; how was it pro-Soviet? Or is this all a vast overgeneralization from someone with very little appreciation, understanding or interest in Europe, other than as a means of scoring ideological points?

This is my point. To throw these adjectives so liberally demeans their meaning and cheapens the experience of those who really suffer from racism or fascism.

Look at my name. Perhaps then you will appreciate that you have no need to lecture me on the evils of totalitarianism.

FlyingRodent, Hitler is a term than encompasses more than just the military conquests of Europe, Russia & N. Africa. He was the ultimate statist who ran a one-party police state and controlled the media. He was a god-like cult-figure who promised everything to everyone if they would just follow his lead. He gave powerful orations in front of giant crowds on well-dressed stages. He asked his people to “heil” not the state, but himself.

In these respects, Obama is much more like Hitler than Bush was.

Does that mean that I am right and you are wrong? No. It means that the answer to “who is more like Hitler” (a weak argument in the first place) is entirely dependent on your perspective of Hitler and the candidates for comparison.

You cannot state (as fact) that one is more like Hitler than the other. That is simply your opinion.

The birther campaign was started by Hilary as was the “Obama is a Muslim” thing.

Obama’s birthplace was challenged by Hillary supporters. Five weeks after Rush Limbaugh had cast doubt on his citizenship. The Birther campaign seems to be largely the province of those who attacked McCain as a RINO and who insulted his supporters for voting for him in open primaries.

Obscene T-Shirts were made of her, she was hung in effigy and her kids were not spared the scorn either. A first in presidential campaigns.

You mean like this?

C(itizens) U(nited) N(ot) T(imid)

How about this?

Pelosi lies from California,
Ted Kennedy lies drunkenly;
But Hill’ry out-lies ev’rybody,
S’don’t give her the presidency!

Bring back, bring back,
Bring back Honest Abe to DC, DC;
Hang up, hang up,
Hang Hillary up from a tree!

[Courtesy of republicanoperative.com]

Or this?

Q: Do you know there’s a White House Dog?
A: [Shows picture of Chelsea Clinton, aged 13]

[Rush Limbaugh - others available on request, should you be so tasteless]

Excellent post. I too suspect that being a moderate in the Labour Party may be a bit like banging your head against a glass-encrusted brick wall for the next few years…

I don’t see anything in your links denying the Sebrenica massacre. None.
There is a link which criticizes the comparison of Sebrenica to Gaza.
An obscene comparison. I suppose you also would agree that it is nonsense to compare the two.
Israel helped the Bosnian Muslims, they sent them aid, blankets and took in refugees. Now days Bosnians are rallying behind Hamas against Israel.
There were incidents which forced the question regarding the media play the Bosnians made in regards to civilian casualties. Namely in Gorazde where no effort was made to even slow down the Serb advance. Did they want to cause a scene full of corpses?

Geller didn’t say this, the UN did.
All sides perpetrated the most morbid acts. All sides. Serbs and Croats raped and burned, Muslims beheaded and slit throats of children and women and so on.
Bosnia was bound to explode and I will make no apologies for Serbs or the others. All have committed atrocities and all are guilty of crimes.
Also all have suffered in grotesque ways. Usually the innocent and helpless who bore the brunt of this tribal conflict as for me it was not too different from Rwanda around the same time.

I will credit the Serbs that at least they are coming to terms with their crimes and are prosecuting perpetrators. Slowly but surely they have demonstrated the ability to self reflect.

You can deny and obfuscate all you want Pristina. The fact remains that nobody can plaster labels in Europe without looking in the mirror first. Right, Left or Center, there are racists, antisemites Nazi nostalgists and soviet apologists all over the place. Some reformed, some turned coats and some remained what they always were. Most changed with the wind. Nominal party platforms are only that, nominal.

Nazis became communists and communists became nationalists all in order to either gain power or to hide their pasts.
I have had conversations with German “social democrats” who basically said to me that Hitler “did some great things”. Those views are unfortunately found in many more people than just some parties.

Add some alcohol and the past and the skeletons come out of an European like a flood.

Tudjman, for example called the 6 million figure for the Holocaust an “exaggeration”. He was a communist partisan who fought along Tito and Milosevic. Later Tudjman and Milosevic shed their communism for nationalism and in the case of Tudjman, made common cause with Fascists who fought and died along the Croat army. They even had black uniforms. The Ustasha brigade.
This in my view does not diminish the right of Croats to their own country. On the contrary, it diminishes your argument that some racist or nasty pasts are worse than others. All are bad.
And as for Bosnia. It is now a haven for Jihadis. None can deny that.
There are Saudi mosques preaching Jihad there and many terrorists have been arrested or traced back to Bosnia s alliance with Iran and other nasty Islamic types during the war. Veiled women and bearded men crowd the streets and sooner or later, they will call for an Islamic state and Sharia. What do you think that will do to the “peace”?

In my personal opinion, the place will explode once more. What is keeping it down is a Nato occupation. It is another Afghanistan. Kept under lid so that its disease doesn’t spread wider.

Kosovo also was no black and white. The KLA did commit terror acts and did receive support from terrorists on the outside, as well as the CIA. Again, that doesn’t diminish the suffering of Albanians under Serb rule any more than it should deny the fact that Serbs also suffered from Albanian bigotry. I had no horse in that race so I see it objectively. I also visited the region (Yugoslavia-Croatia) a few times during my lifetime and known people from all the sides of this morbid conflict which has proven that Europe is no better than Africa when it comes to tribalism and ethnic hate. They can deny it or pretend it doesn’t exist. But reality is reality.

I did not support bombing Belgrade and NoviSad. I don’t think repeating the patterns of territorial punishment from the days of Versailles does any good except worsen resentment and fuel future conflicts. Adding to that the fact that there never was a country called Kosovo or Bosnia for that matter.

Kosovo was a great pretext for Russia to invade Georgia for example.

Francois Mitterand was a Vichy militia man. Later a socialist president.
Georges Marche was also a collaborator, later to become a leader of the soviet funded and led Communist party of France.

Current members of the labor party, and past ones who formed Respect, supported Hamas, Hezbollah and called for the end of Israel.

The Socialist leader of Holland was at a Gaza rally where the crowd chanted “Jews to the gas” and carried signs of the same. Similarly, the socialist Swedes published a Jewish blood libel story just a few weeks ago.

The socialist premier of Spain ranted that he “understands” antisemitism.

Nobody is clean of the past in Europe that is what I am saying. All parties have skeletons and secrets. If not the parties, then individuals in parties.

I never said all social democrats were or are pro soviet. In fact I said the opposite that they are not. What I said was that collectively, the Euro Left apologized for the Soviet Empire time after time again.
Some worse than others. Some ever celebrated the Prague invasion of ‘68. That actually created the schism which gave us Christopher Hitchens who left the Left after Prague.

As for the US. A different culture and different history.

“The Democrats don’t still have large numbers of members who endorse the KKK. The Democrats don’t eulogize members of the German American Bund. The Democrats don’t go to Nazi commemorations. The Democratic Party is not comfortable with members who have convictions for racial assault. The Democrats don’t use people who deny the Holocaust as spokesmen. Young Democrats don’t dress up like the Hitler Youth. The Democrats don’t have legions of fans on Nazi sites like Stormfront.org.”

Still the democrats have a former KKK wizard as majority whip, Sen Byrd of WVirginia.
But overall both US parties have severed links with nasty types.
Still, there are scary figures in the Obama team.
I don’t recall the VB holding Hitler rallies or sporting Nazi uniforms.
In fact they made their support for Israel clear and have the support of the Antwerp Jewish community who came under constant assault by Muslim immigrants and whom the government refused to protect.
As they deny the reality that Gaza is what is coming to Europe soon.
You agreed with me that their origin is in a pro Nazi party. But that is part of the context of the Franco-Flemish conflict which Germany exploited. Would I vote fore them?
Absolutely not.
Again, I make no apologies for VB. But Wilders is talking to them as far as I understand it. I objected to the “fascist” label as no matter how racist they may or may not be, they are no fascists. They went through s cleansing of sorts, to me they are no different than any other party on the right or the left.
Either in Communism or Fascism.

I don’t know what link you can produce between Geller or anybody like her and Stormfront.

armaros,

The obvious question is if Beck is correct and all of Beck’s Tea Baggers go around with signs saying Obama is Hitler then what does that make McCain? Joe Stalin or Pol Pot, since he is worse then Obama.

*Propaganda campaign – Nobody wants the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud; The weapons are in the area around Tikrit and to the north, east, west and south somewhat; those terrifying aluminium tubes; the model planes that were going to drop a quadrillion litres of anthrax on Dogdick, Alabama; The Niger documents, and so on and so forth in an increasingly idiotic and hysterical manner for a very, very long time indeed.

I could debunk many of these – evidence was reasonable, even if opponents of the war in their drooling madness preferred to simply deny it, but obviously there’s never a point in trying to convince you, I waste way too much time as it is.

Also if it makes it easier for you to pretend that I’m a right winger and that the writers on this blog aren’t liberals too, you just go ahead and suck your thumb and imagine we’re all nasty Republicans, ok? Really I don’t mind, it’s not as if you’re ever going to engage reality anyway, so you might as well pick the delusion which makes you most comfortable.

What comes out of this thread for me (an Australian small-c conservative with floor-crossing tendencies) is the serene insensitivity of ideological leftists to the way they come across to others. It starts with gratuitous gutter abuse, and works its way up to reflexive, insulting and manipulative allegations of fascism or racism the moment you express the slightest divergence from their views on Obama, indigenous issues here, etc. If Saddam seemed not to have WMD stockpiles, it was due to Bush and Blair ‘lying’ – not an honest mistake which leftists never make apparently. Not even when misreporting this issue – read what the weapons inspectors really said, and you find Saddam had retained his WMD production facilities and intended to activate them as soon as possible, using money pilfered from a totally corrupted oil-for-food program, a typical UN stuffup. It encompasses endless turgid diatribes on The Religious Right while keeping silent on the equally erratic Religious Left like Obama’s daft former preacher Rev. Jeremiah Wright with his crazed conspiracy theories about AIDS, the egregious Jim Wallis who in such Christlike fashion described the fleeing Indo-Chinese boat people as ‘consumerists’ (come home, Pol Pot, you weren’t a consumerist so you’re in the clear), even Al Gore with his ‘moral’ film – as a scientist by training I saw countless howlers in the movie which is force-fed to schoolkids worldwide, an entirely immoral situation, and so on. But don’t you get right-wing equivalents of such things? Yes. So why am I blasting the left for their efforts in this vein? Because a lot of the worst lefty offenders I know are university graduates. If a blue-collar trade unionist carried on like this I would not make an issue of it. When university graduates repeatedly produce such stuff, intellectual tripe expressed with absolutely no tolerance for any other viewpoint in a display of gross hypocrisy, it is a disgrace.

OP: Why is it “racism” to oppose Obama’s healthcare proposals? When the “racist” Americans elected a half-black president, it was never part of the deal that he should be deemed to be right about everything.

It’s not inherently racist, but electing a black president means it’s a given that the racists who do exist in the the US were doomed to lose their fucking minds… And they all did.

So when you’re a totally crazy frothing-at-the-mouth anti-Obama loony, the odds are pretty good that it was your racism that sent you over the edge. Not proof positive, buy if you’re ranting “obama-hitler” then 2/3rds of your new friends who you’re marching with arm in arm are racists no doubt.

David Elder, so its your contention that university education takes men who might be rant, drooling “obama is hitler” loonies and turns them into ranting, drooling “bush is hitler” loonies?

:/ somehow that rings true.

JM

armaros,

“The obvious question is if Beck is correct and all of Beck’s Tea Baggers go around with signs saying Obama is Hitler then what does that make McCain? Joe Stalin or Pol Pot, since he is worse then Obama.”

This may be an obvious question for you alone.

It’s nice that we have people like Charles Johnson who can steer us away from nutty extremist far-right policies such as reducing immigration during an economic recession and towards more moderate, respectable, middle-of-the-road ones like invading and occupying Middle Eastern countries based on lies and killing tens of thousands of civilians in the process.

aNZu, do you have an actual link to Johnson opposing reducing immigration? I’d be shocked if you didn’t just make that up.

As for killing 10’s of thousands of civilians, I would say:

1) congratulations on not saying 100’s of thousands or millions like the nutcases do

2) The actual deaths were caused by religious violence sunnis blowing up shiite pilgrims hundreds at a time, ethnic cleansing of sunnis by shiite militias, barbaric communal violence – not by our forces, it would be nice if people could make arguments that were also honest enough to admit which people the mass murders are, put an actual name to the problem and face that there is something here that all progressives should oppose and it’s not liberation from tyrants, it’s religious supremacism

3)The people we’ve deposed or are opposing (saddam and the Taliban) have a worse record. Say a million dead in the Iran-Iraq war, including the gassing of civilians, ethnic cleansing, mass killing of women in de-westernization/enslavement program, rape and slaughter of families in torture entirely unlike what the US was ever charged with and on and on.. An honest man would consider that deposing such people set Iraqi and Afghani society in motion and did and is still improving people’s lives, that there is a prospect for hope now where there was only despair before.

But we’ve never had an honest debate. Your side won’t admit the good on the other, so there is nothing to talk about with you, not if one is morally serious.

After listening to the reastions to Obama’s speech at the UN apologising for America I think things are going to get worse for him domestically. The conservative media are going to tag the socialist/marxist claims onto Obama’s weak and apologetic themes.

In a sense Obama’s speech was content free. Just filled with nebulous “it means what you want it to mean” statements.

Anyway, the birther conspiracies have now been cleared up. He’s Gaddafii’s son. Fox called him “G-Daffy”.

I don’t think it is the Right going bonkers so much as the gradual rise in a vocal section of the working class. Up to now political parties have tended to be dominated by highly educated Upper or Upper Middle Class politicians. They know how to put their case in a civilised and sensible sounding manner. The working class, or perhaps not even that, does not. So we see the BNP is full of people who sound like nutcases. On the other hand people who find the Tories are too moderate but who belong to a betterclass join parties like UKIP. Not necessarily any saner, but certainly better spoken.

The Republicans are losing their educated Preppy voices and the media is making sure we hear from the grassroots. Just as their real complaint about Sarah Palin was that she was an oik who dared to seek a job above her station. The Democrats’ grassroots is probably no better or worse. Just that Obama went to good schools and knows how to speak proper.

Josh Scholar – “It’s not inherently racist, but electing a black president means it’s a given that the racists who do exist in the the US were doomed to lose their fucking minds… And they all did.”

Actually I think that the Racists have generally kept to themselves and behaved rather well. We have not seen anyone burning a cross on the White House lawn. We have not seen Timothy McVeighs coming out of the woodwork. To spot these racists you have to speak pretty good “code” in fact because they are not obvious about it. Nor are they popular if there are any. I don’t doubt that America still has a lot of racists, but by and large they are not playing a big role in this.

Given the massive economic losses of the Crisis and the even more massive Government take over and tax increases, I don’t think you need to search for alternative explanations for things like the Tea Parties. People are pissed. Don’t needlessly complicate explanations.

Sure racists were not ready for a black president. They never will be.
They were there before Obama won the largest margin since any democrat in 34 years.
So all of a sudden Americans became racists? They discovered its wisdom 6 months into Obama?

But neither was the Left ready for a black president. They went off the deep end with this racism BS in trying to shield their inept and disappointing president.

getting back to Charles Johnson, it’s Johnson who has lost the plot. His purges and mass bannings at LGF of those who did not worship before the altar of Chuckles the clown were simply laughable. Of course Charles has spun it so that they were all racists and Birthers and other fanatic types, while some certainly were and so deserved a banning, this was certainly not the case with most.

Johnson has been spinning so many lies and so much misinformation on anti-Jihadist bloggers and individuals, painting them all as nazis (yes some are, like the BNP and others), but not all. Johnson increasingly parrots loony left type tripe on anti-Jihadists in the West and so has no more credibility on that issue than David T. Johnson recently threw Rifqa Barry under the bus, like a typical “liberal”. David T either doesn’t know or doesn’t care, either way how can one take him and Johnson seriously as astute political commentators?

You wouldn’t know the first thing about Johnson’s dishonesty, distortions, disgraceful bannings and the like going by David T’s hagiography of Chuckles.

you called Robert Stacey McCain a ‘white supremacist’. I hope you have evidence for this claim; or good lawyers.

I’ve dipped in and out of his blog for more than a year and seen nothing to justify your claim; but I haven’t read him very closely or indeed recently.

Care to provide evidence of his ‘white supremacism’?

armaros,

Actually no, it is obvious to anybody with eyes and ears. If McCain is worse then Obama and the Tea Baggers think Obama is a Marxist, Socialist, Nazi etc-, then we just want to know which arch-villian in history is McCain going to be compared to.

Don’t make stupid, ingnorant comparisons(Obama=Hitler) if they can’t back it up.

KMcC
24 September 2009, 12:50 pm

“you called Robert Stacey McCain a ‘white supremacist’. I hope you have evidence for this claim; or good lawyers.

I’ve dipped in and out of his blog for more than a year and seen nothing to justify your claim; but I haven’t read him very closely or indeed recently.

Care to provide evidence of his ‘white supremacism’?”

His only edvidence is to repeat the smears of Charles Johnson.

David T, in your effort to support your nut job friend C.J. you have revealed yourself and therefore this site as not trustworthy and all for the sake of a few silly links,more fool you.

Once again David T, where did you get the lower image from,stop running away and answer the question please?

Steve.

Well Robert Stacey McCain is a member of the League of the South, which the Southern Povert Law Center tags as a white nationalist group.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=453

Perhaps that is what David T is referring to.

I don’t see anything in your links denying the Sebrenica massacre. None.

How about “Must be tough. Concocting atrocities is a hard business. But just like the Palestinians, the Bosnians are old hands at it, which is what he must be talking about.”

or

” The real Srebrenica Genocide not reported by the corrupt, racist pro-Islamist-Nazi Western corporate-controlled media, was the brutal mass murder – using axes, knives, daggers, sledgehammers, iron bars, flamethrowers and explosives – of 3,870 Serbian elderly men, women and young children in and around the town of Srebrenica and its adjoining towns and villages(Bratunac,Skelani,Milici, et al) as well as the town of Gorazde.”

I didn’t look very hard, this is just for starters. So I have to conclude that unless the “Srebrenica” you are talking about has nothing to do with the systematic murder of Bosniak men, you didn’t bother looking.

I suppose you also would agree that it is nonsense to compare the two.

Of course I agree. There are insane anti-semites everywhere.

Geller didn’t say this, the UN did.

Most notably Lewis Mackenzie, paid Serbian publicist of whom the Serbian specialist Eric Gordy said “He wants to appear to be a friend of people he is calling savages underneath his breath, who probably do not recognise his implicit claim that it is unreasonable to expect such people to control themselves. At one time this person was responsible for the lives and safety of a small group of young people and a very large group of civilians. Worse still, he was responsible for assuring compliance with international humanitarian law.” General Mackenzie is also worried about Nepal’s desire to secede from China.

Bosnia was bound to explode and I will make no apologies for Serbs or the others. All have committed atrocities and all are guilty of crimes.

Bosnia was only bound to explode because there were people who were determined to make it happen. There was a heavy Serbian propaganda campaign, complete with arms distribution, training, a separatist organization of Serb local authorities and the assassination of moderate Serb politicians before the war even started. The HDZ and the SDA took advantage of the situation the Serbs presented to them to silence the many Croat and Bosniak moderates; it is no accident that before the war UJDI was one of the most popular organizations in BiH. This has been demonstrated by historians as diverse as Žanić, Čolović, Grujić, Gow, Simms, Gagnon and Duijzings.

To pose an equivalency between the crimes of the Serbs, planned in advance, including rape, slave camps, and the total extinction of Bosniaks in Eastern Bosnia, with those of the Croats and the Bosniaks which, while odious, were neither preplanned nor systematic, belies your supposed neutrality. You have none.

Namely in Gorazde where no effort was made to even slow down the Serb advance.

You might remember that DUTCHBAT was supposed to be protecting the people of Goražde. They failed. Read the NIOD report.

this morbid conflict which has proven that Europe is no better than Africa when it comes to tribalism and ethnic hate.

A comment of monumental racism and ignorance thrown at the peoples of two continents from someone who has very little idea of the daily issues either in Europe or Africa.

I will credit the Serbs that at least they are coming to terms with their crimes and are prosecuting perpetrators. Slowly but surely they have demonstrated the ability to self reflect.

There is plenty of evidence that the Serbs are sorry that they lost the four wars they started in ten years. When the Serbs regret that they started them, and those that do are few and face great hostility, we can talk about progress.

Re Robert Stacy McCain, it took me about two minutes on Google to find this quote from him:

“[T]he media now force interracial images into the public mind and a number of perfectly rational people react to these images with an altogether natural revulsion. The white person who does not mind transacting business with a black bank clerk may yet be averse to accepting the clerk as his sister-in-law, and THIS IS NOT RACISM, no matter what Madison Avenue, Hollywood and Washington tell us.”

[blockquote]two minutes on Google to find this quote from him:[/blockquote]
Well, you get what you pay for. 2 minutes, one quote. Not exactly rigorous.

Someone from LGF recently went over to hotair.com and started posting racist comments in the early morning hours, just to see if they would be deleted instantaneously. Since they weren’t, hotair is a ‘racist’ site. This is the modus operandi of LGF and Charles Johnson. If there is a nutcase, it’s him.

He’s recently highlighted the hanging of a Federal Census worker in Kentucky and says that “the timing (around the time of the Washington DC tea party) raises a strong suspicion that anti-government sentiment may have been the motivation”. Gee, no shit Sherlock. You think the scrawled ‘FED’ on his chest might indicate that and not the Tea Party protests.

Fucking tool.

Furthermore, the anti South Bigotry is so profuse that people pointed to the Sons of Confederate Veterans organization as evidence of Joe Wilson being a racist hater.

So I would be hesitant about any charges or insinuations againsts Southern Organizations that celebrate Southern Heritage, as some bigots think that any organization celebrating the South or the Confederacy is prima facie evidence of being a racist hater, among other things.

Anti Southern bigotry is the most common form of bigotry and is fully acceptable in public discourse to espouse it.

Hell, Maureen Dowd in the NYTs chanted it from the nation’s paper of record a couple of weeks ago.

And is anything McCain has written or said any different than say, Jeremiah Wright?

Gene’s Fevered Imagination,

Nobody denies Wright is a racist

Sure they do.

Regardless, using Johnson’s guilt by association meme, he should stop linking to any Obama related material, right?

If David wants to focus on ‘nuts and crazies’, he’s got a perfect target in Johnson and LGF. Those guys are puritans and fanatics.

GFI,

Jeremiah Wright has said some hateful things, but I don’t know if he ever denounced interracial marriage.

And if the best defense you can make of RS McCain is that he’s no worse than Wright, I think you’re in trouble.

Gene,

I’m not defending McCain, just point out a blaring hypocrisy, at least on LGF’s part.

And apparently, you can’t process what is directly in front of you. McCain has never ‘denounced interracial marriage’.

The real problem here is the absurd overuse of the word ‘racist’, which, at least on the left, has lost all of it’s original meaning.

Gene’s Fevered Imagination and EscapeVelocity,

League of the South is a neo-Confederate organization which is not a sons of Confederate veterans but an openly pro-white nationalist organization. Just go their website. McCain is a member or was a member of that group and if he isn’t, I have yet to find where he has distanced himself from the group.

Also McCain writes for VDARE website which most diffenently walks a tightrope between border line racism and nativism.

Namely in Gorazde where no effort was made to even slow down the Serb advance.

The civilian population were supposed to have DUTCHBAT to protect them. They failed. Read the NIOD report.

Add some alcohol and the past and the skeletons come out of an European like a flood

Some don’t even need alcohol to wax lyrical about voting for Strom Thurmond and how, if he had won in ‘48, we wouldn’t have “all these problems.” Anyway, how does alcohol affect good Islamist Bosnians?

Tudjman, for example called the 6 million figure for the Holocaust an “exaggeration”. He was a communist partisan who fought along Tito and Milosevic.

Milošević was three years old when the war ended; he was no Partisan.

On the contrary, it diminishes your argument that some racist or nasty pasts are worse than others.

You have missed the premise of my argument. I’m not bothered much about the racist and nazi past of the VB. The VB is racist and neonazi now.

And as for Bosnia. It is now a haven for Jihadis. None can deny that. There are Saudi mosques preaching Jihad there and many terrorists have been arrested or traced back to Bosnia s alliance with Iran and other nasty Islamic types during the war. Veiled women and bearded men crowd the streets and sooner or later, they will call for an Islamic state and Sharia. What do you think that will do to the “peace”?

We were told this in 1987, 1989, 1991 and every year thereafter. So, if the Islamic state has been just around the corner for 22 years, when’s it going to come? I suppose this a) avoids having to actually examine how most Bosniaks deal with Islam and b) avoids having to confront the effects on a people who’ve been subjected to campaigns of genocide and mass extirpation perpetrated by those whose arguments you happen to repeat.

Again, that doesn’t diminish the suffering of Albanians under Serb rule any more than it should deny the fact that Serbs also suffered from Albanian bigotry.

So, this “neutrality” consists of making an equivalence between a few threats, and latterly murders by a few thousand lightly-armed people using donkeys with a systematic campaign of arrest of one in three Kosovars, legal segregation, police assaults on children going to school, attacks on Albanian hospitals, mass firings, destruction of homes leaving the old and the young to freeze in the mountains, and finally mass eviction and mass killing by 30000 well-armed soldiers and paramilitaries in tanks and APVs.

I had no horse in that race so I see it objectively.

Non sequitur.

I also visited the region (Yugoslavia-Croatia) a few times during my lifetime and known people from all the sides of this morbid conflict

I have spent my entire adult life with people of all nationalities in the Balkans working in and about the region in conditions of war and peace.

Dismissing everyone as equally bad has the advantage of avoiding what local people have to say or undertaking any serious analysis of what’s going on and why. It’s also racist.

I did not support bombing Belgrade and NoviSad.

You surprise me.

I don’t think repeating the patterns of territorial punishment from the days of Versailles does any good except worsen resentment and fuel future conflicts.

I didn’t know you were for what is now Israel staying part of the Ottoman Empire.

And I wonder what will be worse in generating resentment and future conflicts: allowing a distinct people in a distinct area to chart their own future after 67 years of brutal occupation, or allowing the continued subjugation of two million people by an administration that has already shown, and continues to support, a ‘final solution’ to the problem of non-Serbs living in Kosova?

Adding to that the fact that there never was a country called Kosovo or Bosnia for that matter.

Bosnia was an independent kingdom until 1463. When people are brutally treated and have no recourse to political protest, they get thoughts of independence. Before 1776, there was never a country called the United States of America.

Kosovo was a great pretext for Russia to invade Georgia for example.

The countries that have officially agreed this are Belarus, China, Iran, Moldova, Nicaragua, Serbia and Venezuela. Nice company you keep.

Besides, if Kosova was a great pretext for Georgia, East Timor was for Kosova. And Mozambique for East Timor. And Guinea for Mozambique. And India for Guinea. And Bulgaria for India. And Serbia for Bulgaria. And Argentina for Serbia. And the US for Argentina….

Kosovo was a great pretext for Russia to invade Georgia for example.

Francois Mitterand was a Vichy militia man…Georges Marche…led Communist party of France…Current members of the labor party, and past ones who formed Respect, supported Hamas, Hezbollah and called for the end of Israel…The Socialist leader of Holland…the socialist Swedes published a Jewish blood libel story just a few weeks ago…The socialist premier of Spain

None of these cases have anything to do with your accusation that Almost all leftist parties in Europe trace back to either Soviet or pro soviet parties of the cold war. They are all revolting, but irrelevant, except for the case of Georges Marchais.

As to the Labour Party and the newspaper Aftonbladet, I hope you are not suggesting that these people were anything other than opposed to Labour Party policy or that the Aftonbladet has any formal connection to the Swedish Social Democrat party. The libel laws in the UK are pretty harsh.

I never said all social democrats were or are pro soviet

“Almost all leftist parties in Europe trace back to either Soviet or pro soviet parties of the cold war.” Social democrats are leftists. Kindly have some respect for others on this thread and don’t treat them as stupid.

Some ever celebrated the Prague invasion of ‘68

A group of small communist parties with very small electorates. Even most communist parties (including in totalitarian Albania, Romania and Yugoslavia) opposed it. I’m sorry, but your argument seems to be ‘they were pro-Soviet because they supported the Soviet Union.’ This is a circular argument.

As for the US. A different culture and different history.

This may be news to you, but nearly all Europeans (indeed all who aren’t fascists) who are members of political parties do not associate with Holocaust deniers, do not receive plaudits on stormfront.org, do not dress up in militaristic uniforms, do not commit racially motivated crime, and do not attend neonazi events. To claim that this doesn’t happen (except for Aryan Nations, the US Nazi Party, the Church Of The Creator etc etc etc) in the States merely because of “a different culture and different history” is a gross insult to all Europeans.

Now this is scary, not least in a kind of “which century is it again now” sort of way?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jbzG_BlkG2Hfc818EPRRn1bBlP6gD9AT92400

The FBI is investigating the hanging death of a U.S. Census worker near a Kentucky cemetery, and a law enforcement official told The Associated Press the word ‘fed” was scrawled on the dead man’s chest.

Still the democrats have a former KKK wizard as majority whip, Sen Byrd of WVirginia.

When was the last time Byrd endorsed the KKK? (Answer: before 1952) When was the last time the VB endorsed the annual rally at Diksmuide? (Answer: 30 August 2009)

Still, there are scary figures in the Obama team.

Nazis yet?

I don’t recall the VB holding Hitler rallies or sporting Nazi uniforms

If you live on a diet of Pamela Geller, you won’t. She either does not know or does not care about the activities of the Vlaams Belang towards minorities, whether Muslim or not, and I doubt if she reads Dutch.

But just for you, here are some pictures.

Still the democrats have a former KKK wizard as majority whip, Sen Byrd of WVirginia.

When did Byrd renounce the KKK? (Answer: 1952) When did the VB last support the annual neonazi gathering at Diksmuide? (Answer: 30 August 2009)

Still, there are scary figures in the Obama team.

Nazis yet?

I don’t recall the VB holding Hitler rallies or sporting Nazi uniforms.

Hardly surprising if you live on a diet of Pamela Geller, whom I doubt knows or cares about what the VB gets up to that doesn’t fit her agenda. And I doubt she knows much Dutch.

But just for you, here are some pictures.

I’m not impressed by this blog entry or David T(or Gene)-though I am quite a fan of Harry’s Place. Why is it necessary to believe that people who disagree with you are mad and evil? Although I’m a lefty I refuse to believe that everyone who is underwhelmed by Obama has lost the plot. Neither are all American Conservatives vacuous and hate crazed -try reading Richard Fernandez or Roger L. Simon.

Sorry, I thought I had lost the first post. So you get more piccies of ordinary-looking not-at-all-Nazi-like militaristic gatherings, apparently so common among Europeans of all political stripes.

In fact they made their support for Israel clear

Just like the BNP. To them, racism towards Muslim immigrants is a bigger vote catcher than anti-semitism or anti-African racism. As with the BNP, it doesn’t mean that they are sincere.

have the support of the Antwerp Jewish community

Oh, really?

The anti-semitism my partner and I have experienced in Antwerp was from white people, common in a city then sympathetic to neonazis like the VB.

I never noticed any VB posters around Walvisstraat; I have seen a lot of ‘Nee Tegen Racisme’ ones though. As these often feature the VB symbol with a line through it, I doubt if the VB are that keen.

But that is part of the context of the Franco-Flemish conflict which Germany exploited.

As I have noted, every mainstream Flemish party has managed to avoid sinking into this morass. It is only the VB that try to associate Flanders with racism. Similarly in Wallonia, every mainstream party has avoided this “context”; such attitudes and language belong only to the Walloon FN.

Again, I make no apologies for VB.

I think you’ve made a pretty good job so far.

But Wilders is talking to them as far as I understand it.

Wilders revulsion against the VB can hardly be clearer.

They went through s cleansing of sorts, to me they are no different than any other party on the right or the left.

Holocaust denial by party leaders, Hitler Youth-style demonstrations, hanging out with nazis across Europe, vocal support by self-proclaimed nazis. No, nothing fascist here. Why aren’t all Europeans Nazis/Communists?

I don’t know what link you can produce between Geller or anybody like her and Stormfront.

I made the link between the VB and Stormfront: feel the sympathy.

Geller has no direct link with Stormfront as, of course, she’s Jewish. However, the arguments, particularly regarding Serbia and its wars, that she espouses are supported by 6,672 threads on Stormfront Srbija alone; the only other Balkan country with enough for its own section is Croatia, with a “mere” 1,647 threads.

Pristina

I will not debate the Bosnian-Yugoslav war with you. It has ended and it is hopefully over for a while.

You know where I stand, again, I have no national, religious or any other animosity toward any of the parties in that tragic conflict.
Like many others, during the conflict, my sympathies lied with the victims, who were the Bosnian civilians under siege.

However, there was a negligence by media toward the suffering of Serbs, being labeled as the “perpetrators” whereas Croats and Muslims got the “victim” label. Like I said all sides committed morbid acts there and nobody in their right mind would deny that.
But Croat and Bosnian acts of terror and war crimes were downplayed or ignored. That is where Gorin and Trifcovich and others are coming from. Geller has no expertise in this matter, and never pretended to. She mostly used the writings of Pallazi (Muslim), Gorin, Kuntzel (a real terror expert) in reference to examining the presence of Jihad and JIhadis in Bosnia.

Gellers MO is fighting Jihad not to fight the ethnic wars in the Balkans.

I don’t know how that would make Geller a fascist still?
To illuminate victims of the war on the other side?

Don’t think I am stupid. I know what my eyes see. Bosnia is in great danger of becoming a problem in large part because of Saudi influence, the same problem faced by the UK for example. They imported terrorists into the country during the conflict. Everybody knows that. What everybody doesn’t know is how many of these people remained there. Some say none, some say many. The answer is probably “some”.

Incidentally, this problem doesn’t seem to affect Kosovo or Albania for now. But is affecting Macedonia a bit. If Jihadis are entering and making home in the UK why is it inconceivable that they also are entering an unstable Muslim country?

You like to associate anybody critical of your biased (somewhat understandably so) view with monsters like the Nazis or the KKK.

Again, I will not immerse myself into a conflict which is old and deep.
I happen to come from a country which used to border Yugoslavia, refugees of all sides came there with horror stories and carrying what remained of their lives on their backs. Muslims, Serbs, and Croats.
To me, they are all people and contrary to your assertion I do not hold them, or Africans, in contempt. I merely hold tribalism in contempt which again can hardly be called a “pro-fascist view”.

Just because Yugoslavs are white, makes their tribalism no less contemptible than that of Africans who also chop each other to pieces for tribal reasons.

As for the VB, you have shown no proof, no evidence that they are Nazi or Nazi like. They are a Flemish nationalist party and as all nationalist parties, probably have nasty members with nasty views.
As do leftist parties.
Why do I need to repeat myself?

Murphy

I don’t know how to respond to your question because its very premise is a false one.
You alleged that Tea parties are about comparing Obama to Hitler or that Obama is = to Pol Pot or Stalin.
Or that Beck believes that also.
If that is what you believe of Tea parties and Beck then you are so off base, so off side, what is there to debate?

It was wrong to say all Anti War demonstrators were Hamas or Communists during 2003-2006.
So I wonder why all of a sudden all Tea parties are judged by some wing nuts with silly signs.

There is nothing wrong, in my view, to allude to the aspects Obama s team has borrowed from totalitarians of the past. This they have done.
They used scare tactics, Stalin/Mao style denouncing of opponents, employed elements of a cult of personality which surely is none like that of Saddam but surely a first in American politics.
They employed people who are / were communists and racists (Van Jones). Black separatists, Weather Underground veterans (the Apollo Alliance) and also given room to other radical minded scientists who in the past, in academia, have flirted with eugenics, population control and other silly things. In addition they have also brought in people who praised Chavez and promoted censorship of media for the good of the state ( Mark Lloyd)

To illuminate this is right. To directly compare this with Hitler is wrong.

In essence what the Obama team consists of are the aged 60s radicals who have shed their hair and communist manifestos and anti-American ideology for corporate or academic careers and have resurfaced in government.
They need to be exposed just like anybody else needs exposing with a shady past. Let the people be the judge. Had the media played fair and not played the affirmative action game in regards to Obama and his blackness and would have vetted him like they vetted every presidential candidate before him, Beck would have 10% of the ratings he has today.

-And probably Hilary would be president now with Obama probably in the VP position shaping up for 2016 as an experienced and seasoned candidate.
Now he will be a 1 termer short of a miracle, and Sarah Palin is likely to run a successful campaign for 2012.
Just like there would have been no Reagan landslide had there not been a Carter, whomever succeeding Obama will be to the right of what McCain ever was.

Its so weird that you would use Charles Johnson as an example when you are posting about the right losing its mind – if ever there was a blog at which you can almost watch someone losing their mind before your eyes, it is LGF – it used to be great and then it started to devolve into a “i’m right, you’re banned” creationist-obsessed little Charles Johnson fiefdom. He is so bizarrely against any debate or disagreement with his positions – (and by the way I feel the same way he does about creationists, I just don’t go on about it nonstop). Its become quite creepy to read the comments at LGF – they are all so toadyesque and kowtowing to him. Basically seems like anyone who even mildly disagrees with him simply can’t post because he bans them . He can do what he likes on his blog of course, but to hold him up as “sane” in a world of crazy is just plain wrong.

M-o-r-g-o-t-h @ 23 September 2009, 11:32 am

I gather you’re in a bad mood but it still might be interesting to know what your argument is. You do have one?

However, there was a negligence by media toward the suffering of Serbs, being labeled as the “perpetrators” whereas Croats and Muslims got the “victim” label.

Who exactly invaded Serbia during the conflict?

Dixie

Amen…..( I too believe in evolution…and the mental disintegration of Johnson)

He banned me for a polite, nuanced and diplomatic disagreement in regards to the Rifqa Bary case. I merely suggested that perhaps this girl should be left alone for a few months until she turns 18 and not be forced back home so that way nobody (Muslims or Anti-Muslims) can keep scoring points.

Banned by the little green tyrant. Like the kid you used to play with in the sandpit.

“If you park your tonka there, I take all my toys home and this is my sandpit so you go home or my mom will kick your ass”

Pristina

This is, I take it some kind of ad hominem designed to show your support for Serbian occupation. Prishtina is an ordinary surname; kindly use it.

However, there was a negligence by media toward the suffering of Serbs, being labeled as the “perpetrators” whereas Croats and Muslims got the “victim” label.

No, to a great extent, the Serbs got the label of perpetrators because that is what they were. It was the Serbian administration and its allies that planned and executed the violent destruction of Bosnia, and attempted to destroy Croatia and Kosova. This is not the opinion of the media alone, but of the bulk of scholars and jurists working in this field, serious Serbian academic experts not excepted.

Like I said all sides committed morbid acts there and nobody in their right mind would deny that.

Like I said, you are seeking to portray them as equivalent. In fact, in all cases (with some Croatian exceptions), it was hugely one-sided.

That is where Gorin and Trifcovich and others are coming from. Geller has no expertise in this matter, and never pretended to. She mostly used the writings of Pallazi (Muslim), Gorin, Kuntzel (a real terror expert) in reference to examining the presence of Jihad and JIhadis in Bosnia.

And this “redress” comes about by articles that, among other things, suggest having a party weekend to celebrate the “fiction” of the Muslim dead of Srebrenica, claiming Albanians were ethnically cleansing Detroit, denying the camps at Omarska, the massacres at Reçak, Suha Reka and Cuska; all opinions shared by extreme nationalist denialists. True balance requires the forensic and disinterested quest for the truth; Gorin does not know, and cares a great deal less, whether what she has to say bares any relation whatever anything that remotely resembles historical, anthropological or sociological fact. (I do note, however, that she describes Kosova as under Islamist influence because of the arrival there of jihadists recruited and trained in the USA. So, Kosova is jihadi because it is the victim of Islamist terrorists from the States. You know it makes sense). Julia Gorin is not a serious scholar but a writer of sensationalist para-history. Should she ever, and I doubt she is capable, set aside her work for taqiyya merchants and produce work of equivalent scholarly value, publishable in a scholarly journal, I will take her seriously. Otherwise, she is a racist hack who trades on fear.

The fact that Trifković’s work on the former Yugoslavia was ever published in the Western media nails the lie of its bias. Either that or Western journalists are incredibly lazy. His site Serbianna is one of the largest resources of atrocity and genocide denial on the web.

She mostly used the writings of Pallazi (Muslim), Gorin, Kuntzel (a real terror expert) in reference to examining the presence of Jihad and JIhadis in Bosnia.

Palazzi is, as his name suggests, an Italian. He is also of Syrian descent and studied in Rome and Cairo. His concern is overwhelmingly with Italy and the Middle East, and I have very little on which to disagree with him. He does not, however, claim any expertise on the Balkans, even on the practise of Islam there.

Matthias Küntzel is an expert on anti-semitism, particularly with regard to the Middle East. Again, he claims no expertise on the Balkans. If you want to read an expert on the Balkans, read Norbert Mappes-Niedeck’s unrivalled ‘Balkan-Mafia Staaten in der Hand des Verbrechens – Eine Gefahr für Europa.’

Were Gorin to be claiming expertise on the Balkans, or even Balkan Islam, based on the work of either Palazzi or Küntzel, this would suggest that she was quoting them on areas on which they do not have special knowledge and passing them off as regional specialists. To a serious writer on the subject, this would be fraudulent.

To me, they are all people and contrary to your assertion I do not hold them, or Africans, in contempt.

As I said, dismissing people, white or black, as tribal savages, and all sides as equal, avoids having to examine the actual situation or the justice or otherwise of anyone’s case. It’s all “ancient hatreds” and we need not bother ourselves about boring things like human rights. Whether you state this about Africans or Europeans, it is still simplistic, essentializing and racist.

Or let’s put it this way: “Turks and Greeks have been at each throats for centuries. They’re all savages and it would only cause more bloodshed if the Turks were forced to withdraw from Cyprus. After all, they intervened to protect their people from the depradations of fascists in Athens and Nicosia. What sort of precedent would such intervention bring, including the humiliation of a valuable US ally? Much better that the Greeks get over it.”

Or like this: “Jews and Muslims have been at war for generations and there have been atrocities on both sides. Why support and arm Israel if all it’s going to do is continue their eternal feud with their Arab cousins? What does the US have to gain when its vital supplies are in question?”

Or this: “Just because Yugoslavs are white, makes their tribalism no less contemptible than that of Africans who also chop each other to pieces for tribal reasons.”

As I said, simplistic, essentializing and racist.

Gellers MO is fighting Jihad not to fight the ethnic wars in the Balkans.

Why then has she adopted the denialist position of a few far-right extremists? Would she not do better to stop repeating racist canards and produce work that stood up to withstained scrutiny?

Incidentally, while you are indulging yourself in your preferred atrocity deniers, you may like to think about the country that is Serbia’s strongest friend in the Middle East. It’s Islamic Republic of Iran. After the Serbian-Iranian security agreement signed in 2006, came Serbia’s vocalsupport for Iran’s human rights record at the UN.

The thirtieth anniversary of the Islamic republic was celebrated in Belgrade City Hall in February, the largest official celebration in Europe. In March we learn that:

http://www.iran-daily.com/1387/3356/pdf/i2.pdf

The foreign policy commissions of the Iranian and Serbian parliaments enjoy close relations and promotion of bilateral ties would be of interest to both nations [prior to a joint trade deal signed in June], he [Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki] noted.

[T]he ongoing international financial crisis offers an opportunity for the two countries to further promote ties in key areas, he added.
Meanwhile the Serbian parliament speaker said Tehran-Belgrade cooperation have [sic] paved the way for further expansion of bilateral ties in all fields.

Out of interest, the statement released on signing the statement in June said “Serbia and Iran will certainly want to increase and deepen ties with Iran’s military industry and security policies.”

In yet more bilateral talks with Serbian Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić, Mottaki averred that “[The] presence of Israeli and US forces in Georgia during the past year was an indication to existence [sic] of an organized conspiracy by the outside powers to damage regional peace and security.” Jeremić has made no attempt to distance the Serbian government from this position.

Why do I need to repeat myself?

I’ve shown evidence of a party rejected by Wilders (already shown here), that uses the Odinic Cross amongst its members (already shown here), that dresses up its youth just like the Hitler Youth (already shown here), whose then vice-president denied the Holocaust and called Anne Frank’s diary a fraud, that has plenty of nazi fans on Stormfront (already shown here), of which Antwerp’s Jews are very much afraid (already shown here), and whose support is withering among non-racists anxious to defend Flemish interests and concerned with Islamic immigration.

If you find nothing here that reeks of Nazism, you are: a) totally unaware of European politics (this I doubt); or b) arguing in bad faith – your “failure” to find atrocity denial in plainly denialist pieces is evidence here; or c) either too close to or anxious to hide your own sympathies to all the traits exhibited here. This of course does not exclude b) + c).

You will have to repeat yourself until you find evidence, just as real life as the articles, documents and photos I’ve shown you, that would show a reasonable person that the VB has nothing to do with racism. Until then, the weight of evidence is, as it has often been in Belgium’s courts, against Dewinter’s gang of racists.

In essence what the Obama team consists of are the aged 60s radicals who have shed their hair and communist manifestos and anti-American ideology for corporate or academic careers and have resurfaced in government.

Let me get this straight: if you are formed by ex-Nazis, have ex-Waffen SS members among your members and host European-wide Nazi meetings less than a month ago, and receive wide far-right support there is no evidence that you are now racists and “All parties have skeletons and secrets.” But if there are one or two members of an administration who once knew people who had ties to communists, then “They need to be exposed just like anybody else needs exposing with a shady past.” Hmm.

Now he will be a 1 termer short of a miracle, and Sarah Palin is likely to run a successful campaign for 2012.
Just like there would have been no Reagan landslide had there not been a Carter, whomever succeeding Obama will be to the right of what McCain ever was.

I now realize there may be another alternative; you’re completely divorced from reality. Go Quitter in 2012!

Pristina

Why are you so keen in trying to portray me as some Serb apologist?

Can you read?

I never said all sides were equivalent in aspects other than suffering. What I said was they were all responsible to VARYING degrees of this mess. I stand by that statement.

You think Serb civilians did not suffer?
Or all Serbs supported the regime? Have you seen the desertions to Hungary, Italy and Romania by Serb men and boys sick of Milosevic’s turncoat nationalism and fearing to be enlisted and sent to Bosnia when all they wanted was to have a life?

You are falling into the conflict and refuse to see that beyond the slogans and flags there are people.

And sure. Greeks and Turks are at each others’ throats and in Cyprus it is tribal madness.
And I never said “tribal savages”. You may have felt that implied when I compared Bosnia to Africa.

It seems it is you who may harbor some racist tendencies.

Look at what was the Belgian Congo and its former constituent nations; Rwanda, Burundi, DemREp of Congo. Not that different from Yugoslavia. Tribes, Empires, artificial borders, and ethnic conflict with considerable foreign meddling. .
All this producing wars and atrocities where at the end the leaders shake hands, toast to peace in Paris or Geneva, on the heaping pile of mutilated bodies and burned villages. It is always the same. And yes for those around Yugoslavia, the judgment was: “stay the hell out”.
As for Turkey vs Greece. It is a lot more complicated.
Turkey was an Empire when Greece broke off.
Hardly a tribal event. But I am sure both had their little hands in Bosnia, as did the Germans, the Russians and others with their own geo-political agendas. Not like we haven’t seen that before in WWI WWII.

“Pristina

This is, I take it some kind of ad hominem designed to show your support for Serbian occupation. Prishtina is an ordinary surname; kindly use it.”

Huh?

no way, sorry for the misspell

But “occupation” is hardly the definition of 700 years isn’t it?
It is a old conflict and I wish Kosovars well. I also hope that the Serbs who remained there can also live in peace. After all they have been there for 700 years. Hardly what one may call “occupiers”.

Why are you so keen in trying to portray me as some Serb apologist?

Pristina is one thing – you obviously have an ‘h’ on your keyboard. Then your support for Gorin and her crowd of Serb nationalist atrocity deniers. Things like that.

Can you read?

Better than you can recognize evidence.

You think Serb civilians did not suffer?

Of course they did. I’ve seen plenty of victims.

Or all Serbs supported the regime?

You evidently don’t read my posts.

You are falling into the conflict and refuse to see that beyond the slogans and flags there are people.

Having spent time in refugee camps and seen plenty of wartime suffering, this is as offensive and it is ridiculous. It is you who stand by and flag wave for the genocide deniers.

It is a lot more complicated.

Oh, really? No different from any other imperial squabble, Cyprus, or Yugoslavia included, complete with international settlement.

“It is you who stand by and flag wave for the genocide deniers.”

Huh?

calm down and lets just remain focused on the subject of this thread.

Which is whether the US right went bonkers or not and whether to assume Charles Johnsons rants as evidence.

Would you please?