Harry's Place

1. What’s wrong with Obama releasing his long birth certificate.

2. Why are many of Obama’s job. school and passport applications locked-down (all of which derive from a birth certificate)

Isn’t it natural that it raises suspicions?

Oh, bang on the money, the first comment in the thread is an inhabitant of Nutterdom.

If a similar video was shown of a political meeting in a Muslim country at which people were waving placards demanding the politician prove he wasn’t a Jew, rathering than properly debating issues, imagine the self-same people would be rolling their eyes and muttering about dem crazy furriners.

P.

If you are a nutter, certainly.

I should have added that I don’t assert that Obama is Kenyan or a ’secret Muslim’. All that intrigues me is why all this Obama roots stuff is locked down when all other Presidents would have made all their records publicly available – including BTW their health record.

Its the secrecy that intrigues and it allows moonbattery to go wild.

Can anyone give a plausible explanation.

The argument I’ve heard against Obama conspiracy also holds good water. It says that “If anyone could have unearthed the ‘dead bodies’ it would have been the Clintons. Wouldn’t you think they’d have done it to get Obama out of the way. Similarly, wouldn’t you think that McCain or the Republicans would have unearthed this”.

The counter conspiracy theory then asks “Is there a reason why they didn’t?” I suppose I might answer “because the USA was f—-ed up and better to let all the blame go on Obama as a fall-guy leaving the Clintons clean and in a straight fight with the Republicans who don’t have a credible candidate.

I think it will all be solved when Obama loses after his first term.

Nurse! I think I WILL take the meds!

Can anyone give a plausible explanation.

Because you don’t humour nuts. It encourages them, and demeans you.

Oh, bang on the money, the first comment in the thread is an inhabitant of Nutterdom.

REALLY?

Do you think it unreasonable that he should show his long birth certificate?

Don’t you think it strange that most of his records are locked-down?

The second comment in the thread is from an Obama-bot in an Obama-trance and autoresponds to any criticism with “you must be a nut to ask questions about Obama. How DARE you question Obama!”

Who’s the nut?

I am no supporter of Obama, to say the least, but these people are just embarrassing.

Still, the Russian “birthers” are 100 times worse

http://bit.ly/BollocksfromRussiatoday

moderate Republicans should NEVER have allowed their party to get to the state it is in now. I don’t know how they did.

See Goldwater, Barry and Nixon, Richard. It’s not like this is a recent occurance, it’s been going on since at least fifteen years before I was born.

Nice to see Aaro strongly denouncing people who attack their political opponents as anti-American fascists, by the way. As a result, I imagine he’ll be boycotting any future panel discussions with Nick Cohen and, indeed, himself.

Arfur,

It is all a stitch up-Hilary and Obama have been an intimate couple secretly for several years. Take a close look at Chelsea’s face and ringlets. The presidential candidacy run-off process was a piece of theatre for public consumption. Michelle, originally a man from Detroit called Jamal, is being handsomely rewarded to play a role. McCain was paid off to appoint Palin (unbeknownst to her) as running mate, knowing this would fatally fracture his campaign.

Obama is of course a crypto Muslim and head of JI in Indonesia for many years.

Barad K. Moonbat xxx

“Do you think it unreasonable that he should show his long birth certificate?”

Yes, I absolutely do think it is unreasonable that a politician should be badgered into releasing extra documents over ones already released to “prove” facts to a hysterical minority that have already been verified, because that way you open the gate to pretty much constant harrassment. You’re not going to tell me that none of the Birthers will accuse the long form of being a forgery, are you?

I mean, if the Obama-Sekret-Mooslim-Born-in-Kenya conspiracy has advanced this far, with the State of Hawaii, the Democratic Party and the McCain campaign all in on the scam, forging a long-form birth cert should be an cinch.

P.

(That Russia Today clip, if you can bear to watch it all, not only suggests that Benjamin Netanjahu is behind the promotion of the “birther” rumours, but also implies that Obama had some close connection with jihadis in Pakistan in the early 80s). Kenya, Indonesia, whatever

“See Goldwater, Barry and Nixon, Richard.”

By currently standards, Goldwater – as an opponent of the religious right’s stance on gays, religion in politics, and abortion and someone who endorsed medical marijuana use – would be a liberal outcast in the Republican party.

P.

Good post, it’s completely barking nutjob stuff, up there with Trooferism and the frothers on the Daily Kos and CIF.

I’m not sure that the Republicans are quite as stuffed as David T would have us believe. There is plenty of Democratic moonbattery on the Democratic supporting left. For starters remember ubber Moonbat Michael Moore’s feting by senior Dems. This just simply shows that the Dems don’t have a monopoly on it. Which is not new to anyone with half a brain.

The ironic thing is that Obama not only adopted the Bush appointed Defense secretary Robert Gates, but has done an arse about face and playing ‘New Labou’r to the Republican ‘Tories’ on much having adopted many of GWB’s policies, especially in Defense.

Nixon also hoped to introduce a form of universal healthcare but got somewhat, erm, sidetracked during his second term.

Speaking of nutters … Do we have to put up with Flying Rodent and his tedious obsession with a small group of writers whom he and an even smaller group of boring wankers refer to as “Decents”?
I’d take the time to explain, in detail, the difference between calling Obama and the Democrats “anti-American fascists” and calling certain other people anti-American fascists (in brief: in the former case it’s a lie, in the latter case it’s often true), but I fear that FR is too thick to get the point, or, for that matter, to grasp what “former” and “latter” mean.
It’s also worth mentioning that neither David Aaronovitch or Nick Cohen is Jewish – not that it matters to any sane person whether they are not, but you can bet it matters a hell of a lot to an “anti-Zionist” (nudge nudge, wink wink) like FR to assume that they are.

are not > are or not

Oh lordy. Yes, that video is extraordinary and a bit creepy. Well, I’m a US citizen, though that doesn’t grant me any special powers or knowledge here, David T sums up my feelings, basically.

However, I am a bit soft on these protests. It’s a perfectly fine American tradition. It IS spontaneous. There are thousands of people showing up at Town Hall-style events across the country. It isn’t paid by the grand nut conspiracy running the Republican Party, even if the party steps in with some of the heavy lifting. They’ve been doing this for awhile, this is just the latest manifestation. There are reasonable objections to the Obama health care proposals being drowned out by the noise, and I can say that as someone who is to the left of Obama (I’d like a national health system).

But where I come back to David is the incomprehensible arguments of the wackier set. It doesn’t make any sense to me. And this conspiracist nonsense is so common I’m just, like, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. It’s like 9/11 (or is it 11/9 for this audience?) Trutherism for the Right, I suppose. The health system protests combined with the “birthers” conspiracy-mongering is a potent combination of nativism (and racism, no doubt. Paul is right on that anti-Muslim sentiment is very much like anti-Semitism) and a particularly American fear of government. The latter I find very rational and I sympathize with it, though I see the need for a government system.

I should mention, by the way, that we have our own BNP. It gets soaked up in the two party system but there are folks with the same psychology more or less. One thing to watch for are groups who insist on dressing themselves up in the symbols of the national origin myth. It’s not Excalibur or so much a monocultural ethnic identity (outside of the Deep South, as an immigrant nation America doesn’t really have one to the same extent) but the frontier and the Constitution. A lot of revolutionary war imagery and so on. Gadsden flags — which is really quite a shame because it’s quite a good flag with a positive message that’s been hijacked by some rather dubious types. I think in England there’s a similar hijacking with the Cross of St George. From over here it looks like it’s the de facto symbol of the BNP, and that’s quite dangerous.

Nice to see Aaro strongly denouncing people who attack their political opponents as anti-American fascists, by the way. As a result, I imagine he’ll be boycotting any future panel discussions with Nick Cohen and, indeed, himself.

Yawn. Yet another evidence-free contribution from FR.

For further reading on birthers etc, this article is highly recommended http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/9/763919/-Race,-Taxes,-Birth-Certificates,-and-Eugenics

Ah, one more thing for now.

I would like to say to the birthers that although they insist that if Barack Obama is not a natural born citizen of the United States, then he would be ineligible for the presidency; you should know that the opening words of the Constitution are “We the people…”.

Obama was elected by a wide margin, is now the President, etc. etc. etc. The people have decided so what do you expect will happen? It’s not like he’d cease to be President. Even if he did, that just means Joe Biden would take his place. Lets hope that doesn’t happen… or, perhaps… that’s exactly what they want! Damn the Illuminati!

If I was Obama I’d just release a copy of the certificate and say “See?! Now shut up!”

“Damn the Illuminati!”

Joe Biden – the secret ruler pulling the strings!

No sniggering at the back.

P.

I thought his birth certificate was released. Well, regardless, it won’t make any difference. Nothing will convince them that he was born an American citizen. They are beyond logic and rationality. They are on Mars. They are in Outer Space. It’s the same with all conspiracy theories.

I’d prefer the likes of FR to comment here more often. Not because I agree with his position on a whole lot of issues, but because he’s articulate and when not being accused of anti-Semitism well disposed to conducting a civil discussion.

We have quite enough looney tune commenters from the right; a few more from the left would help to balance things out and reflect well upon the blog.

Back on topic, the video is disturbing, undoubtedly, but I’m reassured by the two giggling women in the foreground and it is, unfortunately, the case that the most outspoken (for which read ‘bat-shit crazy’) members of the public tend to dominate these sorts of meetings. Just pop along to any town council meeting and you won’t believe half the shite people come out with.

BTW, the Labour Party disarmament policy of the early 80s was not premised on a notion that the USSR was a benign entity. The party was unbelievably naive at this time, but not that naive.

Don’t you know? Obama, Michelle, McCain, Palin and some other guys are actually all part of a hustler group. Obama and McCain both ran for presidency so that one of them would become president, have access to the oval office and the presidential escape tunnel, which runs directly under a museum that holds the largest diamond in the world. Obama let the rest of the group into the presidential escape tunnel where they dug a hole right under the diamond. While Michelle (who only pretended to be his wife) would hack into the security, McCain would take care of the CCTVs while the guards were distracted and they would steel the diamond. They planed to fake their own deaths in a plain crash which would be blown up by remote control by Eik who would then hack into the govt computer systems and make them a death certificate. The thing is, Obama liked being president and decided that he would “survive” the plain crash and Michelle agreed to keep pretending to be his wife.

God! Don’t you watch SouthPark!!!?

What is creationism and gay bashing to do with it? The lady is a little naive or fearful or biased, or stupid, but clearly democracy allows for such, you can question and ask what you will, it does not mean you are right. Clearly you dont get to become president unless you have been born in the USA, which should be easy to prove.

This is normal small suspicions, which should be nipped in the bud by the governing party asp, so we can finally rest in peace and move on to the next suspicious theory or fact…. the US is vast and the people varied, many of which have been questioning goverment theories, persons, conspiracies, for generations. This kind of thing never really dies but it is a far cry from your picture of the burning man in blind rage void of reason.

It’s also worth mentioning that neither David Aaronovitch or Nick Cohen is Jewish – not that it matters to any sane person whether they are not, but you can bet it matters a hell of a lot to an “anti-Zionist” (nudge nudge, wink wink) like FR to assume that they are.

Wow, that’s got to be the most outrageously spurious accusation of anti-Semitism I’ve ever seen.

Can I point you to “Aaronovitchwatch” (“incorporating World of Decency”):

http://aaronovitch.blogspot.com/

It really exists! There is also a Nick Cohen sub-section.

I know (read that) Nick Cohen only has a Jewish father, so obviously not halachically Jewish. Is the same true of Aaronovitch? Either way I suspect they would still be assumed to be part of the World Neocon Jewish Conspiracy/ZOG or whatever…

B

“normal small suspicions”

The _whole point_ is there’s nothing “normal” about these suspicions. Despite the fact that Obama’s birth _was announced in the local newspapers_, people think his parents has him in Kenya, then _flew_ to Honolulu to place a newspaper ad.

If this is “normal”, then please tell me which recent other politicians was hounded in such a way to prove they were born where they said.

P.

Why doesn’t he release the long birth certificate?

Because having a vocal section of your political opponents suffering from gibbering poo-flinging meltdown can be quite helpful, I’d imagine.

I know (read that) Nick Cohen only has a Jewish father, so obviously not halachically Jewish. Is the same true of Aaronovitch? Either way I suspect they would still be assumed to be part of the World Neocon Jewish Conspiracy/ZOG or whatever…

Grow the fuck up you boring nutjob.

Why don’t people release Nick Cohen’s birth certificate!!!!

“Grow the fuck up you boring nutjob.”

Sy, you seem very relaxed that anyone who is not mouth-foamingly anti-Israel and has a Jewish sounding name is often subjected to a
anti-Jewish abuse (which was my point).

I am impressed that as someone you have never met, you manage to cram such a lot of incisive insults into such a short post.

B xx

“poo-flinging meltdown”

Well, they’ve had tea-bagging, so poo-flinging is only a perineum away.

P.

It is interesting the extent to which 9/11 ‘truthers’ are hitching up on the ‘birther’ bandwagon (one of them, Webster Griffin Tarpley popped up on Talk Sport the other night)

As one right wing conspiracy circus fades, it seems another one comes along in a few minutes.

Nutterdom on th American Left:

– O.J. is innocent;

– Bush shirked his National Guard duty;

– Sarah Palin’s infant child, Trig, was actually the child of her daughter;

– Justice Antonin Scalia threw the 2000 election to Bush so that his son could get a legal job with the Labor Department;

– The spectacularly guilty Mumia Abu-Jamal was framed;

– The Diebold Corp. secretly stole thousands of Kerry votes in 2004;

– Duke lacrosse players gang-raped a stripper;

– Bill Clinton did not have sex with “that woman”;

– Heterosexuals are just as likely to contract AIDS as gays;

– John Edwards didn’t have an affair with Rielle Hunter;

– John Edwards’ campaign aide Andrew Young is the father of Rielle Hunter’s child.

And as has been recently noted, a 2007 Rasmussen poll showed that 35 percent of Democrats believe Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance, while 26 percent aren’t sure …

http://tigerhawk.blogspot.com/2009/08/conspiracies.html

That video reminded me of Catch-22 and Milo Minderbinder’s loyalty oath campaign, including efforts to make everyone recite the pledge of allegiance and sing “The Star-spangled banner” at mealtimes? These people are nucking futs.

Yes, I absolutely do think it is unreasonable that a politician should be badgered into releasing extra documents over ones already released to “prove” facts to a hysterical minority that have already been verified, because that way you open the gate to pretty much constant harrassment. You’re not going to tell me that none of the Birthers will accuse the long form of being a forgery, are you?

But he’s POTUS, not just some ‘politician’.

As for his health I note his physician confirms his current health as excellent http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10686.html. That covers Obama from age 26 onwards. However, I note its called a “Health Record Summary”. So, its NOT his health record then. which would include a history of doctor visits, medication and any diseases or minor ops that took place before theage of 26.

Its these gaps that keep the door of suspicion open.

Do not count out the Republicans. Although their strategy looks extreme, it has worked in the past.
They isolate individual issues and champion them. So, you might not be a creationist, but you have been brought to a fever pitch over gun control. You vote republican. You do not care for guns, but you are homophobic. You vote republican. You are a worker in an area where Mexicans come across the border, not a creationist not a gun lover. You vote republican.
Their strategy has been to feed on emotional single issues to get people to not see the broader picture.

Stan

Sy, you seem very relaxed that anyone who is not mouth-foamingly anti-Israel and has a Jewish sounding name is often subjected to a
anti-Jewish abuse (which was my point).

If this was a thread about anti-semitism I’d ask you for the evidence of any on Aarowatch. But it isn’t, not even a little bit. So why don’t you stop being a bad parody of an HP poster and stick with the topic.

So, its NOT his health record then. which would include a history of doctor visits, medication and any diseases or minor ops that took place before theage of 26.

Its these gaps that keep the door of suspicion open.

Why do you want to see his health record? If you look hard enough at anything, you’ll find gaps

He’s a good parody, surely?

‘Goldwater – as an opponent of the religious right’s stance on gays, religion in politics, and abortion and someone who endorsed medical marijuana use – would be a liberal outcast in the Republican party’.

Not to mention his commitment to making sure Congress kept tabs on the Executive – definitely an unpopular position amongst Republicans between January 2001 and January 2009.

‘If I was Obama I’d just release a copy of the certificate and say “See?! Now shut up!”’

They’ll only claim it’s a forgery. These people are like the 9/11 truthers. You can knock their claims down, disprove them, point to the evidence, and you might as well be talking to a fucking brick wall.

Talking of 9/11 Truthers, there was a biggish banner calling for the truth about 9/11 on the railings across London Bridge this morning. There were four blokes hanging about behind it. Looked liked soap-dodgers

Mesquito,

Perhaps conspiracy theory is more culturally intrinsic to America as a whole, rather than a matter of politically left or right. Supposedly 2% of all Americans believe they have been abducted by aliens, something only observed on this scale in the US as far as I know.

From JFK to WTC, there are conspiracies galore and the internet is an ideal medium. I cannot really speculate as to why conspiracy flourishes well in the US-any suggestions (if you happen to agree)?

http://www.viewzone.com/abduct.html

“Roper’s representative American sample of about 6000 adults (with a sampling error of 1.4 percent!) showed that one out of every 50 people met the profile of an abductee. This figure suggests that about 33,000,000 individuals had been abducted in America. A closer look at these specific profiles showed that these people were not “average” at all.”

Most likely they suffer sleep paralysis rather than real abductions and delusions but this is a lot of people who fear they have been held captive and monitored, somewhat akin IMO to conspiracies such as those listed above.

B

“If this was a thread about anti-semitism I’d ask you for the evidence of any on Aarowatch. But it isn’t, not even a little bit. So why don’t you stop being a bad parody of an HP poster and stick with the topic.”

I am beginning to see where you stand (I think). So you are responsible for and/or a supporter of Aaronovitchwatch? You are also apparently very hostile to HP, which fits well.

B.

Why has HP adopted the tactics of Obama’s thugs in discrediting what is probably the first class based populist movement in America in a long long time? No matter how much you disparage the “nutters”, they are winning over the independents.

Our seniors will no sit by in silence and watch their medicare benefits looted by a bunch of curroptocrats who have given billions to Wall Street and Detroit, and have cut a $150 billion secret deal with big Pharma.

Hopefully in 2010, the adults will return to Washington. Unfortunately, those adults appear to all be republicans since the blue dogs will soon be purged by Soros’ MoveOn.

Looking at this all I want to say is: God Save The Queen!

“Their strategy has been to feed on emotional single issues to get people to not see the broader picture”

Yeah.

This might work locally. I don’t believe it works nationally.

That is because, in effect, you’re putting all your effort into presenting your party as the natural home for anti-gay, anti-science, pro-shooting, anti-immigrant voters. So, a voter might not be mad keen on the Dems – thankfully that Republican strategy reminds the voter why they don’t want the Republicans in.

The Left has the same problem. For example, in the last US election, I got the distinct impression that the Dems mistook “some bloggers” for “our base”. Labour tried the strategy of “all the minorities and fringe issues together” in the late 80s. Another fail.

Perhaps conspiracy theory is more culturally intrinsic to America as a whole, rather than a matter of politically left or right.

I think conspiracy theory is a universal human phenomenon. Each theory contains a mechanism to deal with dissonant information.

So you are responsible for and/or a supporter of Aaronovitchwatch?

Whatever keeps your pecker up.

You are also apparently very hostile to HP, which fits well.

Let’s just say I preferred it when people like you (no, I don’t mean Jews) were the exception rather than near-as-dammit the rule.

Our seniors will no sit by in silence and watch their medicare benefits looted by a bunch of curroptocrats who have given billions to Wall Street and Detroit, and have cut a $150 billion secret deal with big Pharma.

Fine. What’s that got to do with Obama’s birth certificate?

sackcloth and ashes,

Your right.

We already have a birth annoucement from a Hawaiian newspaper announcing the birth of Barrack Obama in that very hospital to his parents.

Yet this still doesn’t stop this stupidity.

In order for the Birthers to be right, Obama’s parents knew 48 years ago he would be elected president, so they sent in a forged birth announcement to a Hawaii newspaper and paid off the hospital to create a phony birth certificate, so they could have his birth and delivery in Kenya.

Sounds like the making of an X-Files or Oliver Stone movie, then political discourse to me.

“Why has HP adopted the tactics of Obama’s thugs in discrediting what is probably the first class based populist movement in America in a long long time? No matter how much you disparage the “nutters”, they are winning over the independents.”

Uh…

This is of course what the Ross Perot lot said. And Ron Paul.

The birthers need to realize a) that nothing will induce a federal judge to visit this; b) there is no reason for Obama to release his birth certificate, either as a political or procedural matter; and c) Obama is a natural-born citizen, whether he emerged from an American womb in Hawaii or, as I suspect, at the Patrice Lumumba University clinic.

Then why can’t we simply cut them all loose from the system if that’s how they feel about it? Don’t like the government? Fine. Move to some mountain retreat somewhere and take your insane ass off the grid. And if you ever come down off Mount Crazy to request public or health services you will be imprisoned by the state free of charge.

Sy,

If you take offence on behalf of a blog whose sole raison d’etre is the scribblings of a single journalist whose politics you disagree with, then sorry to be the one to break it to you but that makes you the nutjob.

If you dislike HP or its comments, then here is your solution-do not come here. As it is, you popped up, posted some abuse because you presume to know all about me from a single post, got offended and added nothing.

B xx

From today’s Rasmussen polling:

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Monday shows that 30% of the nation’s voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Thirty-nine percent (39%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -9 (see trends).

Fifty-six percent (56%) of Democrats Strongly Approve while 70% of Republicans Strongly Disapprove. As for those not affiliated with either major party, 22% Strongly Approve and 40% Strongly Disapprove.

If you take offence on behalf of a blog whose sole raison d’etre is the scribblings of a single journalist whose politics you disagree with, then sorry to be the one to break it to you but that makes you the nutjob.

No, I take offence on behalf of the reasoned debate this was before you derailed it with your absurd, irrelevant and wholly unwarranted insinuations of anti-semitism. And I don’t claim to know all about you. Besides being a boring nutjob who needs to grow the fuck up, you doubtless have many more flaws which remain a complete mystery to me.

B,

Sy’s been commenting here for years (he was one of my few allies during the preposterous, dishonest, enduring, persistent, obsessive, weird and nasty, amoral and deluded campaign to present the great former mayor of London Ken Livingstone as some form of evil incarnate that so disgraced this Place previously and that undermined a great deal of the credibility that it once had) – AFAIK he has absolutely no connection with that blog (and AFAIK has never even given the appearance of being in particular sympathy with it or the kind of views expressed there).

‘Talking of 9/11 Truthers, there was a biggish banner calling for the truth about 9/11 on the railings across London Bridge this morning. There were four blokes hanging about behind it. Looked liked soap-dodgers’

They’re definitely fact and logic dodgers.

‘Why has HP adopted the tactics of Obama’s thugs in discrediting what is probably the first class based populist movement in America in a long long time?’

Do you think anyone here is going to back a ‘movement’ that is blocking measures to make health-care in the USA more accessible to the poor, simply out of sheer spite? You’re on the wrong site, pal.

Readers might find this story amusing:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_08/019423.php

Do you think anyone here is going to back a ‘movement’ that is blocking measures to make health-care in the USA more accessible to the poor, simply out of sheer spite? You’re on the wrong site, pal.

________________

That’s not the issue.

Obama ran on an inclusive good government transparency platform.

He lied.

Obama ran on an inclusive good government transparency platform.

“I’m going to have all the negotiations around a big table. We’ll have doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. Insurance companies, drug companies — they’ll get a seat at the table, they just won’t be able to buy every chair. But what we will do is, we’ll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies. And so, that approach, I think is what is going to allow people to stay involved in this process.”

Barack Obama
August 21, 2008

Obama ran on an inclusive good government transparency platform.

“I’m going to have all the negotiations around a big table. We’ll have doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. Insurance companies, drug companies — they’ll get a seat at the table, they just won’t be able to buy every chair. But what we will do is, we’ll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies. And so, that approach, I think is what is going to allow people to stay involved in this process.”

Barack Obama
August 21, 2008

_______________

Nice word. Too bad they don’t jive with reality.

Didn’t Obama just make a side deal with the drug companies protecting their profits in consideration of their support.

“No, I take offence on behalf of the reasoned debate this was before you derailed it with your absurd, irrelevant and wholly unwarranted insinuations of anti-semitism. And I don’t claim to know all about you. Besides being a boring nutjob who needs to grow the fuck up, you doubtless have many more flaws which remain a complete mystery to me.”

Sy, as I said, all you have posted is abuse and when this is pointed out to you more abuse. You have added nothing to the reasoned debate that you say you crave and based on your posts I really doubt you are capable of it.

V, IMO Livingstone is pretty much scum (in brief due his dealings with Jews over the years and his hypocritical approach to gay people whilst cuddling Islamists and Sein Fein in days gone by), so telling me Sy is your online chum who shares your love of the ex-mayor is not going to endear me to him-sorry!

Should I be clearing my posts with you first, Sy? If so, then tell me where to find you. I am in EC3 right now so if you are in London I can get to discuss them face to face if you like?

B xx

That would be “Sinn Fein” of course.

B

Should I be clearing my posts with you first, Sy?

Christ, you’re weird.

The biggest Birther of them all is your boy Andrew Sullivan, who to this day is obsessed with Palin’s baby and believe’s she isn’t the mother. Don’t remember HP going bonkers over that insanity.

And I would also like Obama to release all his records including his long form or original birth certificate for the reason that it includes additional information that is redacted from the one he released. I don’t doubt that he is a citizen. However, why would anyone spend a million bucks fighting it unless there is something on it he does not want people to see. As potus, he owes the American people complete transparency.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/06/dem-senators-white-house_n_253502.html

A senior White House aide told Democratic senators Thursday that the administration did not make a deal with the pharmaceutical lobby that would prevent Congress from using the government’s clout to negotiate for lower drug prices, according to three Democratic senators who were in the meeting.

‘Obama ran on an inclusive good government transparency platform.’

A striking contrast to his predecessor, n’est pas?

‘He lied’.

In what way? By not letting Rush Limbaugh have a veto?

kmag,

Why would you care?

Obama could have God Alimighty swear on a stack of Bibles as a personal witness that he was born in Hawaii and you guys still would deny it.

‘And I would also like Obama to release all his records including his long form or original birth certificate for the reason that it includes additional information that is redacted from the one he released. I don’t doubt that he is a citizen. However, why would anyone spend a million bucks fighting it unless there is something on it he does not want people to see. As potus, he owes the American people complete transparency.’

Do you want to see photos of his conception as well?

The reason the Birthers are front and center now is that they can be used as a diversion to the health care protests. The pro-socialized medicine groups are attempting to tie the health care protestors to the Birthers, and tie both groups to the Republican Party.

For those who say why should Obama provide additional material, it is simple. Conservative candidates have been hounded unmercifuly by the media and the opposition to divulge every facet of their lives, to the extent that you could say the requirements are now the norm.

Obama is probably the least vetted candidate in recent history. We only know about his early life from what he wrote. The media was disinterested in his political record in Illinois or the effects of his work as a community organizer, or his time disbursing multiple millions of dollars from a charity to improve the quality of education in Chicago (It didn’t).

If you want to be more informed I recommend Andrew McCarthy’s article Suborned in the U.S.A. The birth-certificate controversy is about Obama’s honesty, not where he was born as a start.

If you disagree with McCarthy you can always conduct your own research and rebut the article.

David A says in the article

I’ve watched a couple of these meetings online and seen, in both, organised attempts not to express an opinion forcefully but to barrack, to intimidate and to disrupt the discussion.

whish makes him I suppose, the first to say – well as good as – that some people

BARRACK OBAMA!! (BOOM BOOM)

Do you think it unreasonable that he should show his long birth certificate?

After the birthers provide manifests showing Obama’s pregnant mother’s journey from Hawaii to Kenya and also show that she didn’t leave Kenya before he was born. Without these, what case is there to answer?

Extremists (of left and right) tend to shout a lot. The great majority of Republicans voted for traditional business- and military-Republicans during the primaries last year. Incidentally, the extremists’ claim that the Democrats chose last year’s Republican candidate through open primaries is laughably easily disproved. Even their “facts” belong to the province of fantasy.

The luurvly Ann Coulter brings some style, sanity and perspective to the proceedings - Dare I say… it’s really rather good actually!

Indeed, Nick ex SA.

Not content with merely humoring their nuts, Democratic officeholders promote conspiracy theories themselves.

In 2003, Democratic presidential candidate and future Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean approvingly cited the left-wing lunacy that Saudi Arabia had warned Bush in advance about the 9/11 attacks. He promised a caller to National Public Radio that, if elected, he would investigate.

In the fall of 2004, Clinton’s Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said she believed Bush was holding Osama bin Laden and planned to release him just before the election. (She later claimed she was joking — a surprise to all three witnesses who heard her say it.)

Sen. Barbara Boxer officially objected to the certification of Ohio’s votes in the 2004 election — on the Senate floor — and demanded an investigation into the “Diebold stole Kerry votes” conspiracy theory.

And, of course, a Democratic House and Senate actually used official government proceedings to investigate the original nut-job conspiracy theory, the “October Surprise,” maintaining that Reagan struck a secret deal with the Iranians not to release the hostages until after the 1980 election.

davod,

You mean the same Andrew McCarthy article that uses discredited blogger, Larry Johnson as one of his main sources of information and website sites like ‘Sweetness & Light’

More info on Larry Johnson, see here:

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=larry_johnsons_strange_trip

Poor National Review, Buckley once purged the rats from the conservative ship, now they are slowely making their way back on board

Dare I say… it’s really rather good actually!

Classic whataboutery

It was the Republicans who called for Europe to revert to pre-1914 borders and thus end the First World War, an outcome which would have precluded both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. The rural and Western half of the Republican Party supported the New Deal while standing foursquare with the rest of their party in opposing needless foreign entanglements, insisting instead that America should only go to war if attacked (as eventually happened) or under clear and present threat of being attacked.

President Eisenhower ended the Korean War, was even-handed in his approach to Israel and the Palestinians, and denounced the military-industrial complex. Congressional Republicans passed Civil Rights in the face of Dixiecrat resistance. President Nixon ended the Vietnam War as President Obama will end the Iraq War, and began détente with China as President Obama is beginning détente with Iran (and beyond). Even Reagan initiated nuclear arms reduction, the only conservative thing that he ever did. And Republicans opposed Clinton’s unpatriotic job-exportation, unpatriotic sweatshop-importation, and unpatriotic global trigger-happiness, all continued and expanded by the unpatriotic Bush Administration.

If the Blue Dogs clear off to the Republican Party, then it will finally have ceased to be a conservative party in any way, shape or form. The Democratic Party, however, may well find itself leaner and fitter, defined unambiguously by economic populism and thus by that populism’s underlying conservative principles. Once more the party of the Hyde Amendment banning federal funding of abortion, passed by a Democratic Congress, signed into law by President Carter, and still in force. What have the Republicans ever done like that? Where, today, is their Pregnant Women Support Act, endorsed by President Obama at Notre Dame?

Without the people who were in it because they supported things like abortion, the Democratic Party could be strictly the party that people were in because they supported things like universal healthcare for the born and the preborn alike.

kmag: ‘As potus, he owes the American people complete transparency.’

And of course, Dubya was a shining paragon of that virtue.

Amused – Of course it’s whataboutery, that’s EXACTLY the point!

Few – certainly not me – are claiming that these ‘birther’ folks are not total and utter nutjob moonbats. However to argue that the Republican party is particularly afflicted with such moonbats and is especially compromised – “unelectable” was the term -because of it, is a tad rich, or possibly just wishful thinking.

The extract from the luscious Ms Coulter’s piece that made me laugh out loud was ….

Terry McAuliffe, then chairman of the Democratic National Committee attended the glittering Washington, D.C., premiere of “Fahrenheit 9/11″ and emerged endorsing Moore’s wacko Unocal conspiracy theory. “I believe it after seeing that,” McAuliffe said.

Show me RNC Chairman Michael Steele saying “I believe the birthers” and I’ll give 10 percent of my book profits to Air America, raising their profits to — let’s see … about 10 percent of my book profits.

Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark proudly accepted Moore’s endorsement in 2004, and Moore was an honored guest at the 2004 Democratic National Convention, sitting with former President Carter.

What is the likelihood that a birther will be sitting with former President Bush at the 2012 Republican National Convention?

Other Democrats who attended Moore’s movie screening included Sens. Tom Daschle, Tom Harkin, Max Baucus, Ernest Hollings, Debbie Stabenow, Bill Nelson, and representatives Charles Rangel and Jim McDermott.

Show me a half-dozen Republican senators attending a birther movie premiere, and I’ll pretend to believe that Olbermann went to the Ivy League Cornell.

. Now I think Ann Coulter is barking mad, though I have sneaking suspicion that her routine is a put up job. Just a shtick to get attention – and that she’s really a free market, libertarian atheist and Sam Harris’ secret lover.

Anyway, I have to concede, this was a highly entertaining piece.

And of course, Dubya was a shining paragon of that virtue

Compared to the Obamessiah, he was.

Kmag “However, why would anyone spend a million bucks fighting it unless there is something on it he does not want people to see”

I keep seeing this claim by the birthers, but none of them provides an original source. If you try and trace it back they just cite each others websites. Do you have actual evidence for this?

And of course, Dubya was a shining paragon of that virtue

Compared to the Obamessiah, he was.

How do you work that one out?

Obama is probably the least vetted candidate in recent history. We only know about his early life from what he wrote. The media was disinterested in his political record in Illinois or the effects of his work as a community organizer, or his time disbursing multiple millions of dollars from a charity to improve the quality of education in Chicago (It didn’t).

If you disagree with McCarthy you can always conduct your own research and rebut the article.

To me a post that makes the most sense – even trumping my own. It makes the case that there are so many inconsitencies and lies in Obama’s past that suspicions about the real Obama, the core Obama remain.

Its obvious from his election and crafted speeches to the reliance on a teleprompter that raises suspicions about him. All those years with the antisemite Rev Wright and never hearing an antisemitic sentiment, a house deal with crook Rezko and so forth.

Its a stack of situations that makes you want to find out what he’s hiding.

Obama may just be a remote-controlled Manchurian Candidate for all we know. (couldn’t resist baring some moonbattery!)

The burden of proof is on the “birthers” to prove he wasn’t born in Hawaii. Arfur, Hawaii does not have such a thing as a long form birth certificate.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/BarackObamaCertificationOfLiveBirthHawaii.jpg

I agree with most of what David T has written about the mad ranting turn the Republicans have taken. Just want to ask though:
Why should reciting the Pledge of Allegiance be considered unelectable extremism?
It certainly worked for Bush Sr. in 1988 against that card-carrying member of the American Civil Liberties Union, Dukakis.

Arfur, you need to put on a new tinfoil hat. The old one is quite worn out.

All these comments that Obama is supposedly lost without his teleprompter are quite ridiculus coming from admirers of Dubiya who frequently stumbled even with a teleprompter.
Aside: Wonder what the Republicans great hero Reagan would have done without his teleprompter?

But David All: Every one knows that The Gipper and W were dumb dumb dumb and Barack Obama is exceptionally brilliant.

David All,

They forget about Reagan. Some of us do remember what happened when Reagan did not have a teleprompter.

He claimed the word ‘freedom’ did not exist in the Russian language

Told Simon Wiesenthal he visted the Nazi death camps as a solider in WW2(Actually, Reagan spend WW2 on Holywood soundsets, not Europe)

Said South Africa ’stood beside us in every war we’ve ever fought’ which was not true.

Denied his Administration sold arms for hostages which after everything shaked out about Iran-Contra, it makes Reagan either a fool or a liar on the subject.

RE: everyone knows the gipper and W were dumb dumb dumb and Barack Obama is exceptionally brilliant.

That’s right.well, to qualify, Obama certainly is brilliant, not sure if he’s exceptionally so. Am, however, quite sure that Bush Jr. was a complete idiot (which doesn’t necessarily mean every single policy decision was stupid). Reagan wasn’t the sharpest tool in the shed either but compared to W he was a genius.

And frankly, i don’t give a damn if Obama was born in Kenya (not that i give a moment’s credence to this garbage), he won the election and that should be good enough for anyone who believes in liberal democracy.

Sy, as I said, all you have posted is abuse and when this is pointed out to you more abuse

Actually, he pointed out that you were making unsubstantiated claims about Aaronovitchwatch being motivated in part by “anti-Jewish” sentiment.

Instead of backing up those claims, you’ve accused Sy – bizarrely – of being responsible for Aaronvitchwatch, and being “very hostile” to HP.

Which raises your tally of assertions that are utter bollocks from one to three. I suggest you quit while you’re ahead.

Regan was dumb, a nice bloke and just lucky……GWB most certainly, is not dumb and I’ve seen nothing that convinces me that Obama has more cerebral horses than ‘the Chimp’.

Both men are notable in having cultivated an even tempered continence, especially Bush.

If one judges a man by his wife – and I do in part – Bush wins, Laura’s a gem. Mind you by that criteria let’s face it, our Tony is rather compromised.

on the Barad-Sy subplot, i have to side with Sy. Barad is being a paranoid idiot.

“Regan was dumb, a nice bloke and just lucky……GWB most certainly, is not dumb and I’ve seen nothing that convinces me that Obama has more cerebral horses than ‘the Chimp’.”

Judging Presidential intellgence is a tricky business. My thinking, subject to revision, is that Bill Clitnon is pretty sharp. Reagan was sharp in a verbal way, but a little hazy in more rigorous areas. (I heard it said that he did well in college economics because he had the kind of photographic memory which permitted him to retain graphs and such.) The Bushes are of moderastely high intelligence.

I think, to make it to the Presidency, you have to be near the end happy end of the bell curve. I don’t think we’ve had a President in the last 50 years who was not in the top ten percent of the population, IQ wise.

I have not decided where Our current President ranks. Presidential communications, even the “spontaneous” ones, are far too contrived to offer those moments of synthesis and analysis by which we judge. He is as smart as the others, of course, but he is also strangely insular.

“Terry McAuliffe, then chairman of the Democratic National Committee attended the glittering Washington, D.C., premiere of “Fahrenheit 9/11″ and emerged endorsing Moore’s wacko Unocal conspiracy theory. “I believe it after seeing that,” McAuliffe said.”

He might have been joking but he said this.

“Arfur, you need to put on a new tinfoil hat. The old one is quite worn out”

Arfur. Dont’t let this bother you. After all, the bible for radicals, or should I say ratbag leftists, states that a failing of conseratives is that they want to rely on fact, but the to the ratbags truth doesn’t matter, the emotion of the moment does.

Did any read McCarthy’s article. It might give them pause from the emotion of the moment. But then again, understanding the bible, probably not.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/10/video-citizen-journalist-stomped-by-mob-of-terroristy-un-americans/

Scary shit, no?

No?

Maybe, just maybe Axelrod mght be pushing some buttons.

The major problem for the US conservative political factions is that with the election, they’ve lost the sole factor tying together the disparate factions. They’ve lacked a unifying sense of who they are because each of the factions has an absolute sense of what should be.

The Republicans need to take a good hard look inside themselves and start producing a serious programme of reforms. The US economy is ok but could be a lot better with a clean up of the regulatory environment and especially with reform of Tort law. The US national education system is a disgrace but apart from the laudable NCLB act under GW Bush, nothing has been done.

The Weekly Standard makes this point that Republicans have been abandoning the activist centre ground for the last two decades to the Republicans. Aaronovitch and others have pointed out that moderate and constructive debate has been severely hampered over the years by the intolerance and bullying of hysterical conservative factions.
Viewed in terms of overall political cohesion, the Republicans have been on a losing trend since 1992 because their internal political outlook has rotted into irrelevance.

Every nation needs a constructive, rational conservative alternative to progressivists. Every nation needs both forces because the alternating balance between these ensures the vibrancy of democracy. The danger for the US conservatives lays in their self-destruction; while their opponents have a free run of course, the conservatives quarrel amongst themselves about what the rules should be.

I have revised my opinion of late: Obama will win the next election, perhaps by a landslide. He will have little to show for four years but the Republicans will be able to bring nought but objections, scarcely supported by reason to the table.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/aug/12/birthers-stephen-hawking-paul-rowen

I think Professor Hawking was a bit surprised to be told that a US mag was arguing that if he had been British he “wouldn’t have had a chance” because the NHS would say his life was “essentially worthless”!

How many more lies about our health service are being spread around the US now by people wanting to whip up fear of health reform?

Richard: Place Republican with Democrat and you have the same. The difference between the two parties is the radicals have taken over the leadership of the Democratic party. A number of the those in the critical positions in the Administration are throwbacks to the 60s and 70s.

David T

“This might work locally. I don’t believe it works nationally.”

Actually this has worked nationally. It is the way Republicans won presidential elections. I live in an strongly democratic (the political party) state (West Virginia). Stronger than the party affiliation is the pro gun affiliation. On a local level democratic senators, congressmen, etc. support “gun rights”. They get elected. On the national level West Virginia has voted republican in the last 3 elections based totally on the gun issue.

Stan

oh yeah, those “ratbags” from the left rely on emotion, whereas all those fine conservatives out there equating obama to hitler rely on fact. sure buddy.

all ann coulter brings to any debate is polarization and polarization and simplistic, reductionist thinking. If you look to her for guidance, it’s unlikely anything you have to say is worth reading, but we knew that already.

David Loon-dsay strikes again!

Check out the Youtube interview between Chris Matthews and William Kostric a true dangerous nutjob anarchist who carried a gun to the Obama Town Hall meeting with a quotation about cleaning up liberty with the blood of tyrants (left out of his banner)

This guy is sick and dangerous. http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/34426_Another_Day_at_the_Zoo

David T, almost a fair piece but you have clearly not watched Glenn Beck much. He (along with all the rest of Fox News to be fair, and even Ann Coulter) condemn the so-called “birthers” as nutters.

“This guy is sick and dangerous.”

You know, I really am beginning to think that with the level of gut hatred being cynically formented against him by hard-line Republicans, Obama is not going to live out his presidency. The thought gives me a sick feeling in my stomach, but I really think this. It just takes one lucky whacko.

P.

The far right controls the GOP.

GOP made the miscalculation of courting southern whites by stirring up hatred of blacks and Hispanics.

This led to success in the 70’s and 80’s. However. Dubya only won on the thinnest of margins, and now that USA is becoming more tolerant and diverse whilst the older southern racists die off, I think we will see the GOP continue to shrink and shed itself of its moderates.

GOP will continue to be the party of the selfish white bigot.

You obviously believe the garbage put out by mainstream media.

The thing I noticed about this post is the nutty and rather sinister assumption that political parties in the U.S. do, can, or should “control” their base. If you really believe that, there’s nothing I can add to show the absolute difference between American ways of thinking about politics and whatever your way is. They’re not breaking the law, they’re not violent, and they’re not racist–if any of the protesters do or become any of those things, they will be repudiated by the vast majority of conservatives and Republicans. I’m also puzzled as to why you think the rise of the uncontrollable base make Republicans unelectable–if you hadn’t noticed, a very out of control Democratic base is now in power. It’s true that American politics is now destabilized, without much of a “center” to speak of–as far as I’m concerned the Left broke the rules with their maniacal scapegoating of Bush, and we’ll have to find our way back to some new modus vivendi. It won’t be Obama who leads us there, though.

The thing I noticed about this post is the nutty and rather sinister assumption that political parties in the U.S. do, can, or should “control” their base. If you really believe that, there’s nothing I can add to show the absolute difference between American ways of thinking about politics and whatever your way is. They’re not breaking the law, they’re not violent, and they’re not racist–if any of the protesters do or become any of those things, they will be repudiated by the vast majority of conservatives and Republicans. I’m also puzzled as to why you think the rise of the uncontrollable base makes Republicans unelectable–if you hadn’t noticed, a very out of control Democratic base is now in power. It’s true that American politics is now destabilized, without much of a “center” to speak of–as far as I’m concerned the Left broke the rules with their maniacal scapegoating of Bush, and we’ll have to find our way back to some new modus vivendi. It won’t be Obama who leads us there, though.

The thing I noticed about this post is the nutty and rather sinister assumption that political parties in the U.S. do, can, or should “control” their base. If you really believe that, there’s nothing I can add to show the absolute difference between American ways of thinking about politics and whatever your way is. They’re not breaking the law, they’re not violent, and they’re not racist–if any of the protesters do or become any of those things, they will be repudiated by the vast majority of conservatives and Republicans. I’m also puzzled as to why you think the rise of the uncontrollable base makes Republicans unelectable–if you hadn’t noticed, a very out of control Democratic base is now in power. It’s true that American politics is now destabilized, without much of a “center” to speak of–as far as I’m concerned the Left broke the rules with their maniacal scapegoating of Bush, and we’ll have to find our way back to some new modus vivendi. It won’t be Obama who leads us there, though.

Hey David T.

You had better update your Wiki page it appears to be wrong,it has you listed as Centre-Left on there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry%27s_Place

Only going on what Charles Johnson has just said,he says this place is Centre-right,he could be wrong considering he thinks the Davis cup is a “soccer match”.

Care to clarify the position?

Many Thanks.

RE: You obviously believe the garbage put out by mainstream media.

And you obviously believe the garbage put out by racist, wacko lunatics.

I’m a pro-life Christian Conservative and I used to be a Republican (I was elected precint chair twice, before I became a Libertarian.) I also used to be an Army Reserve Officer and in 03 I got called up for the Iraq War. I wound up as a REMF at a high level headquarters, and this is what I saw of the process.
1) The Military was driven by the Civilian authority, as per our Constitution.
2) The Civilian Political Authority was driven less by policy or strategic concerns, and far far more by political concerns.
3) The Political concerns were focused on, and driven by, the 24 hour news cycle.
4) The News Media are focused on, and driven by, getting ratings, above all else… they like drama, controversy, and sex; not dull things like policy and law.

So the Generals did what Rumsfeld told them, Rumsfled and company was driven by what the poltical people said, who were in turn driven by what the press was saying; so when you boiled it all down, the person who was really driving the train was the 23 year old big breasted ex-weather girl who got her job because she looks hot on camera. The truly sad thing was, Rumsfled (who has the strategic ablity of an exceptionally dense brick, the tactical know how of a Shitake Mushroom, and the leadership skills of the Black Plague) was LESS enslaved by the press than most of D.C.

This is what is killing the GOP right now because the GOP leadership has been inside D.C. doesn’t know their own base anymore. They mistake Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and Bill O’Rilley for their base; and that is simply not true. Sure Rush, Hannity, and the others DO have some influence, and they CAN (and do) drive e-mails and phone calls, BUT THEY ARE IN THE GAME TO GET LISTENERS/VIEWERS FOR THEIR ADVERTISERS…NOT TO FORM RATIONAL PUBLIC POLICY. They do NOT get up in the morning and start their show conferences with “What can we do today that would be best for America?” they start their shows with “What can we do to grab listeners attention?” and the answer to that is drama, controversy, and sex. They deliberately confuse devotion with extremisim.( I’m further to the right than you are so I MUST be more patriotic! If you truly loved your country you would be just as far to the right as I am, or more so!)

The idea that sam spreads (GOP made the miscalculation of courting southern whites by stirring up hatred of blacks and Hispanics) is quite frankly a myth. The GOP beat the Dems in 1972 not because of racisim, but because the Dem agenda was to far to the Left for America to swallow. The GOP beat the Dems in 1980 and 84 and 88 because Carter pushed an agenda that was not only leftist but a failure. That is a fact, but it is not acceptable to the Dems, so they created an alternate explanation of why the lost. They believe it, but sadly so do a lot of “moderate” Republicans.

This (I think) is why the national GOP insanely tollerated the outright racisit (and Vietnam Draft Dodger) Tom Trancedo and his dozens supporters during the immigration debate and the early part of the 2008 primary.) In 1994 Prop 187 turned California from a competitive state to a solid blue state for at least a generation. Taking that debate national with the “Minutemen” and such was political suicide for the GOP, but Arbitron (and Nielsen) Gold for the talk shows and news nets. By embracing the nutter and racist wing of the party the GOP predictably shot itself in the foot, and alienated Americas largest and fastest growing minority group. IT was obviously going to be a political disaster for the GOP; so why did they do it? They followed not their real base, but what they thought spoke for their base, Talk radio, who wasn’t in it for political or policy reasons, but because such a debate could not fail to be a ratings bonanza.

THE GOP needs to develop a policy agenda that is beyond the “first time caller, long time listener” level, and install some ADULT leadership.

The site is centre-left. Many of the commenters are a different matter, unfortunately.

Arfur and the rest: see her?

That’s you that is.

to `Harry’ -

I’m not sure why it is you identify the truly handful of `nutters’ who have come out to these phoney `town hall’ gatherings, with the large majority who came and who, yes, were angry about the immediate health-care proposals being made by the u.s. legislature.

I’m not sure if it’s the BBC or whatever, but you are definitely getting a distorted view of things.

Most people who came to these `town halls’, that I’ve seen, came to express their views on this issue, not to rant on that someone isn’t born in the u.s. or is a secret Muslim.

If, when you witness this, you see only mad Muslims burning the American or Israeli flag, I really have to ask, who is the `nutter’ in this matter?

Dr Orly Taitz Esquire is clearly a voice of reason and not at all MENTAL

Only going on what Charles Johnson has just said,he says this place is Centre-right,he could be wrong considering he thinks the Davis cup is a “soccer match”.

We’ve also been called reds, and not in the sense of “red state.” You pays your money and you takes your choice.

It’s troubling to see you characterize those citizens who are taking part in their country’s political system with the few nut bars that the leftwing media make sure are seen on tv. I have taken part in 3 Town hall meetings and one Tea Party Protest and theses are regular working people who are usually too busy working and raising families to protest but they see the damage and danger on the horizon from this administrations actions. Of course they are angry when their so called Representatives lie to them and don’t represent them except at election time. And NOBODY should take Charles Johnsons word for anything. The mans an egomaniac on par with Obama.

GOP has become the party of the Freeper.

That is, the almost-clinically insane. And certainly the ignorant, racist and greedy.

Esquire just ran a great piece on the deluded orly taitz and her weird theories. Between the tea baggers, palindrones and birthers not to mention the lyching of any sane conservatives as rino’s and the wandering republican christian senators who cant keep it in their pants, the GOP is in more trouble than the last oxycontin in Rush Limboughs cupboard.

“I have taken part in 3 Town hall meetings and one Tea Party Protest and theses are regular working people who are usually too busy working and raising families to protest but they see the damage and danger on the horizon from this administrations actions.”

Ah, Michael, so nothing went wrong in the US for the past eight years – including the trillion dollar deficit – but you suddenly felt that everyone was wrong in America as soon as Obama stepped in the door of the White House?

Gotcha.

P.

Birthers and deathers in the GOP are loons. Absolute loons. Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt are spinning in their graves as they watch what’s become of the Republican Party as it plays to the lowest common denominator.

*Birthers and deathers in the GOP are loons. Absolute loons. Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt are spinning in their graves as they watch what’s become of the Republican Party as it plays to the lowest common denominator.*

Yes, and we know how the Dummycrats inhabit the sane end of the spectrum – you know, troofers, terror apologists and President-Urkel sycophants (`Yes we can!’). By the way, the whole `birther’ business was started by a Hillary Clinton blogger.

I was going to say, `Pot met kettle’, but the Dummies are the only insane ones – not that you’d people would know from the BBC.

On Teddy Roosevelt, see this, from his autobiography:

“I hold that a corporation does ill if it seeks profit in restricting production and then by extorting high prices from the community by reason of the scarcity of the product; through adulterating, lyingly advertising, or over-driving the help; or replacing men workers with children; or by rebates; or in any illegal or improper manner driving competitors out of its way; or seeking to achieve monopoly by illegal or unethical treatment of its competitors, or in any shape or way offending against the moral law either in connection with the public or with its employees or with its rivals. Any corporation which seeks its profit in such fashion is acting badly. It is, in fact, a conspiracy against the public welfare which the Government should use all its powers to suppress.

“If, on the other hand, a corporation seeks profit solely by increasing its products through eliminating waste, improving its processes, utilizing its by-products, installing better machines, raising wages in the effort to secure more efficient help, introducing the principle of cooperation and mutual benefit, dealing fairly with labor unions, setting its face against the underpayment of women and the employment of children; in a word, treating the public fairly and its rivals fairly: then such a corporation is behaving well. It is an instrumentality of civilization operating to promote abundance by cheapening the cost of living so as to improve conditions everywhere throughout the whole community.”

I have been hoping for years to read a proper study of the two Presidents Roosevelt in terms of their similarities, preferably leading to a synthesis of their thought as applicable in the present age. If anyone knows of such a work, then do please let me know.

I used to be a freeper until 2001 when the conservative movement and the GOP took a turn for the xenophobic and the stupid.

It wasn’t always an anti-intellectual movement. Sure, we pandered to that sort of crowd to get their votes (as all parties do) but I didn’t think the party and movement would get hijacked in the way that it did.

“I used to be a freeper until 2001 when the conservative movement and the GOP took a turn for the xenophobic and the stupid.”

What is a feeper, and when did you switch?

“I used to be a freeper until 2001 when the conservative movement and the GOP took a turn for the xenophobic and the stupid.”

What is a freeper, and when did you switch?

Paul Maloney:
“Ah, Michael, so nothing went wrong in the US for the past eight years – including the trillion dollar deficit – but you suddenly felt that everyone was wrong in America as soon as Obama stepped in the door of the White House?”

Congress holds the purse strings.

The Democrats have been in control of Congress for over two and a half years. When did the shit hit the fan. After the Democrats took control of the purse strings. While we are in the truth game – The deficit last year was in the high 400’s. While some of the 2008 bailout money was Bush’s, Obama voted for it. Bush also gave the money to the Auto companies, but only after Obama said he wanted the money paid out.

The Democrats have been in control of Congress for over two and a half years. When did the shit hit the fan. After the Democrats took control of the purse strings. While we are in the truth game – The deficit last year was in the high 400’s. While some of the 2008 bailout money was Bush’s, Obama voted for it. Bush also gave the money to the Auto companies, but only after Obama said he wanted the money paid out.

So let me get this straight: If something is partisan and voted through by Republicans only, it’s good. If something is bipartisan, even if it is initiated by Republicans, it’s bad. And to be blamed on the Democrats.

Blaming one side or the other because they were in charge at the moment “the shit hit the fan” tells us little except the author of those lines hasn’t the first clue how capitalism works.

Well said Hasan. The Republicans’ efforts to blame the Global Economic Recession caused by their ignoring any and all regulations concerning their Big Financial Buddies; on the Democrats are truly pathetic.

davod,

A “freeper” is a conservative activist. I ran away fast from the conservative movement in 2001 when it was clear it was becoming a warmongering, bigoted and anti-intellectual movement.

Davod, do you not recall a certain Dick Cheney stating that ‘deficits don’t matter’?:

http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/Dick_Cheney_Budget_+_Economy.htm