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	<title>Comments on: The last of the British veterans of the WWI trenches died today</title>
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	<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/25/the-last-of-the-british-veterans-of-the-wwi-trenches-died-today/</link>
	<description>Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don&#039;t want to hear</description>
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		<title>By: ermintrude</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/25/the-last-of-the-british-veterans-of-the-wwi-trenches-died-today/comment-page-1/#comment-370948</link>
		<dc:creator>ermintrude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:28:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19755#comment-370948</guid>
		<description>&quot;there&quot;, not *their* - fuck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;there&#8221;, not *their* &#8211; fuck.</p>
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		<title>By: ermintrude</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/25/the-last-of-the-british-veterans-of-the-wwi-trenches-died-today/comment-page-1/#comment-370945</link>
		<dc:creator>ermintrude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19755#comment-370945</guid>
		<description>Dai has a fair point. The southern castles defined an area that became a veritable South Welsh Pale, with the locals driven out and incomers bought in from the still vaguely conquered England of the earliest days of the three Norman kings (William I, II and Henry I). These castles were granted eventually to the tender loving care of the many bastard offspring of (in particular) Henry I (who ran a veritable harem, having relations of a Ugandan order with the daughters of many of the local rulers in Wales and elsewhere). 

It was exactly these unruly barons, the illegitimate relatives of the English Angevin monarchs who were latterly encouraged to invade Ireland by Henry II. There they established a pale of similar style and method to the one already established in South Wales in their fathers&#039; time. What was learned in Wales was practised in Dublin&#039;s Pale by an incoming Anglo-Norman-Welsh baronry being cleverly diverted by their Angevin overlords.

If you look at the place names to the east of Neath and eastward from their to Cardiff, you can almost trace an invisible line, behind which are almost exclusively English place-names, beyond which are Welsh.

Not so much Taffy was a thief, as FitzHenry and FitzRoy were larcenous bastards - quite literally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dai has a fair point. The southern castles defined an area that became a veritable South Welsh Pale, with the locals driven out and incomers bought in from the still vaguely conquered England of the earliest days of the three Norman kings (William I, II and Henry I). These castles were granted eventually to the tender loving care of the many bastard offspring of (in particular) Henry I (who ran a veritable harem, having relations of a Ugandan order with the daughters of many of the local rulers in Wales and elsewhere). </p>
<p>It was exactly these unruly barons, the illegitimate relatives of the English Angevin monarchs who were latterly encouraged to invade Ireland by Henry II. There they established a pale of similar style and method to the one already established in South Wales in their fathers&#8217; time. What was learned in Wales was practised in Dublin&#8217;s Pale by an incoming Anglo-Norman-Welsh baronry being cleverly diverted by their Angevin overlords.</p>
<p>If you look at the place names to the east of Neath and eastward from their to Cardiff, you can almost trace an invisible line, behind which are almost exclusively English place-names, beyond which are Welsh.</p>
<p>Not so much Taffy was a thief, as FitzHenry and FitzRoy were larcenous bastards &#8211; quite literally.</p>
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		<title>By: Dai Hard</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/25/the-last-of-the-british-veterans-of-the-wwi-trenches-died-today/comment-page-1/#comment-370917</link>
		<dc:creator>Dai Hard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19755#comment-370917</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; But I think by the time they were getting into North Wales where most of the castles are they could be described as English as much as Norman. &lt;/i&gt;

Hardly! Construction began at Chepstow in 1067, less than a year after William the Conqueror invaded England!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> But I think by the time they were getting into North Wales where most of the castles are they could be described as English as much as Norman. </i></p>
<p>Hardly! Construction began at Chepstow in 1067, less than a year after William the Conqueror invaded England!</p>
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		<title>By: mullah</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/25/the-last-of-the-british-veterans-of-the-wwi-trenches-died-today/comment-page-1/#comment-370909</link>
		<dc:creator>mullah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19755#comment-370909</guid>
		<description>field - 

Fair enough, although I don&#039;t think I am &quot;completely wrong&quot;

&lt;i&gt;Main Entry: bru·tal·ize  
Pronunciation: \ˈbrü-təl-ˌīz\ 
Function: transitive verb 
Inflected Form(s): bru·tal·ized; bru·tal·iz·ing 
Date: circa 1704 
1 : to make brutal, unfeeling, or inhuman  
2 : to treat brutally  
— bru·tal·i·za·tion  \ˌbrü-təl-ə-ˈzā-shən\ noun 
&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;bru·tal·ize (brtl-z)
tr.v. bru·tal·ized, bru·tal·iz·ing, bru·tal·iz·es 
1. To make cruel, harsh, or unfeeling.
2. To treat cruelly or harshly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

brutal·i·zation (--zshn) n.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;bru·tal·ize (brtl-z)
tr.v. bru·tal·ized, bru·tal·iz·ing, bru·tal·iz·es 
1. To make cruel, harsh, or unfeeling.
2. To treat cruelly or harshly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

brutal·i·zation (--zshn) n.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>field &#8211; </p>
<p>Fair enough, although I don&#8217;t think I am &#8220;completely wrong&#8221;</p>
<p><i>Main Entry: bru·tal·ize<br />
Pronunciation: \ˈbrü-təl-ˌīz\<br />
Function: transitive verb<br />
Inflected Form(s): bru·tal·ized; bru·tal·iz·ing<br />
Date: circa 1704<br />
1 : to make brutal, unfeeling, or inhuman<br />
2 : to treat brutally<br />
— bru·tal·i·za·tion  \ˌbrü-təl-ə-ˈzā-shən\ noun<br />
</i></p>
<p><i>bru·tal·ize (brtl-z)<br />
tr.v. bru·tal·ized, bru·tal·iz·ing, bru·tal·iz·es<br />
1. To make cruel, harsh, or unfeeling.<br />
2. To treat cruelly or harshly.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>brutal·i·zation (&#8211;zshn) n.</i></p>
<p><i>bru·tal·ize (brtl-z)<br />
tr.v. bru·tal·ized, bru·tal·iz·ing, bru·tal·iz·es<br />
1. To make cruel, harsh, or unfeeling.<br />
2. To treat cruelly or harshly.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>brutal·i·zation (&#8211;zshn) n.</i></p>
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		<title>By: ermintrude</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/25/the-last-of-the-british-veterans-of-the-wwi-trenches-died-today/comment-page-1/#comment-370836</link>
		<dc:creator>ermintrude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19755#comment-370836</guid>
		<description>Years ago now, I sat with my very young daughter on the express between Paris Gare de Nord and Calais. It was late winter, and the snow had pitched across the great battlefields and so clearly, in the early morning sun, the snow had not yet thawed out the imperceptible dips where the trenches had been and the sun was still low and cast them as long shadows. 

So I spent a while telling my infinitely patient five-year-old what these things meant. And I became aware that the old man sitting opposite me was staring out with a terrible sadness written across his face. He said to me his father was out there and his uncles too, amongst those fading dips and furrows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Years ago now, I sat with my very young daughter on the express between Paris Gare de Nord and Calais. It was late winter, and the snow had pitched across the great battlefields and so clearly, in the early morning sun, the snow had not yet thawed out the imperceptible dips where the trenches had been and the sun was still low and cast them as long shadows. </p>
<p>So I spent a while telling my infinitely patient five-year-old what these things meant. And I became aware that the old man sitting opposite me was staring out with a terrible sadness written across his face. He said to me his father was out there and his uncles too, amongst those fading dips and furrows.</p>
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		<title>By: Monty</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/25/the-last-of-the-british-veterans-of-the-wwi-trenches-died-today/comment-page-1/#comment-370829</link>
		<dc:creator>Monty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19755#comment-370829</guid>
		<description>I was six years old when I was taken by my parents to visit Belgium, France and Holland. I remember the vastness of the war cemetaries, to a small child they seemed endless. I could read a little by then, enough to read the inscriptions, and work out their ages. To me, 16 years seemed all grown up, and quite old. I began to think that everyone had to do that when they were 16, or maybe 20. That I would have to do it too. (I well recall my parents horrified reaction when I asked them when I would go to the war. As if it were like starting school.)

Growing up, I would sit every Sunday morning at Mass, surrounded by old ladies, whose prayer books were interleaved with small photographs of fresh faced, clear eyed young men. The cameras had caught the softness of their skin, the roses in their cheeks. Innocent, and frozen in time like so many plaster saints. As if they were never meant to live, make mistakes, misbehave, get into trouble, and enjoy all the sins and misdemeanours of a normal span of years. 

Now that I am much older, I think of them in a very different way. They were just like us. They wanted all the things we want. Love, marriage, maybe children, plenty of money, a nice golden labrador, a house, a motorcycle and sidecar, a job with a pension, the occasional day at the races, glass of beer, chips after the cinema, a day trip to Redcar. Thinking about them like that, it&#039;s more painful, more tragic, and more personal.

Most of all they wanted to survive, win, and come home knowing that they had won. In that order. No man went there to die. My family were among them. 

I&#039;m very glad that Harry Patch survived, won, and came home knowing he had won. I&#039;m glad he lived well, and lived so long. I think he should be laid to rest in the manner specified in his own wishes, in the place he loved, by his family and friends. We must avoid anything that might cast him as some sort of icon, or a metaphor for something else. He spent more than a hundred years showing us who he was. We don&#039;t get to turn him into a plaster saint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was six years old when I was taken by my parents to visit Belgium, France and Holland. I remember the vastness of the war cemetaries, to a small child they seemed endless. I could read a little by then, enough to read the inscriptions, and work out their ages. To me, 16 years seemed all grown up, and quite old. I began to think that everyone had to do that when they were 16, or maybe 20. That I would have to do it too. (I well recall my parents horrified reaction when I asked them when I would go to the war. As if it were like starting school.)</p>
<p>Growing up, I would sit every Sunday morning at Mass, surrounded by old ladies, whose prayer books were interleaved with small photographs of fresh faced, clear eyed young men. The cameras had caught the softness of their skin, the roses in their cheeks. Innocent, and frozen in time like so many plaster saints. As if they were never meant to live, make mistakes, misbehave, get into trouble, and enjoy all the sins and misdemeanours of a normal span of years. </p>
<p>Now that I am much older, I think of them in a very different way. They were just like us. They wanted all the things we want. Love, marriage, maybe children, plenty of money, a nice golden labrador, a house, a motorcycle and sidecar, a job with a pension, the occasional day at the races, glass of beer, chips after the cinema, a day trip to Redcar. Thinking about them like that, it&#8217;s more painful, more tragic, and more personal.</p>
<p>Most of all they wanted to survive, win, and come home knowing that they had won. In that order. No man went there to die. My family were among them. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m very glad that Harry Patch survived, won, and came home knowing he had won. I&#8217;m glad he lived well, and lived so long. I think he should be laid to rest in the manner specified in his own wishes, in the place he loved, by his family and friends. We must avoid anything that might cast him as some sort of icon, or a metaphor for something else. He spent more than a hundred years showing us who he was. We don&#8217;t get to turn him into a plaster saint.</p>
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		<title>By: field</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/25/the-last-of-the-british-veterans-of-the-wwi-trenches-died-today/comment-page-1/#comment-370776</link>
		<dc:creator>field</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19755#comment-370776</guid>
		<description>Dai Hard - 

Fair point! But I think by the time they were getting into North Wales where most of the castles are they could be described as English as much as Norman. 

Owain The Bank</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dai Hard &#8211; </p>
<p>Fair point! But I think by the time they were getting into North Wales where most of the castles are they could be described as English as much as Norman. </p>
<p>Owain The Bank</p>
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		<title>By: Dai Hard</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/25/the-last-of-the-british-veterans-of-the-wwi-trenches-died-today/comment-page-1/#comment-370766</link>
		<dc:creator>Dai Hard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:02:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19755#comment-370766</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That’s what the English did to the Welsh.&lt;/i&gt;

I think you will find it was the Normans who built castles all over England before doing the same in Wales.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That’s what the English did to the Welsh.</i></p>
<p>I think you will find it was the Normans who built castles all over England before doing the same in Wales.</p>
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		<title>By: field</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/25/the-last-of-the-british-veterans-of-the-wwi-trenches-died-today/comment-page-1/#comment-370761</link>
		<dc:creator>field</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19755#comment-370761</guid>
		<description>Just War theory is never easy to apply but I don&#039;t think you can write off World War 1 as clearly unjust. 

Germany was not a very pleasant country in 1914. All the traits that were to find full expression in Hitler&#039;s movement were well represented in 1914: racism, the desire for supremacy, ignoring neutrality and subjugation of other nations. Let&#039;s not forget that Ludendorff was a close political associate of Hitler&#039;s after the war; that Belgium, a neutral country, was invaded or that Austria had made completely unreasonable demands of Serbia. Let&#039;s not forget that the German armed forces did operate murderous military dictatorships in the occupied lands. 

The options were either to let Germany roll over France, let Austria subjugate Serbia, let Germany take over huge swathes of territory in the East and allow Germany to establish hegemony over the whole of Europe - or alternatively, as happened, the option was to fight. 

Having decided to fight, I think one can fairly lay huge blame on sh*ts of the first order like Haig for engaging in fruitless high casualty offensives.  

I think the right thing to do then was probably to seek all avenues for peace once the initial emergency was over. But it has to be understood - difficult though it is now to comprehend - that in many ways the war was kept going by popular demand. 

Another heretical point I would like to make is that many Tommies came from appalling home circumstances in the UK in the slums of the great cities. They didn&#039;t necessarily find the brutal warfare quite as traumatic as might be supposed. It was an escape from grinding poverty and the narrow life of home. Troops were actually rotated a lot and spend a good deal of time behind the lines enjoyed a good deal of recreation. In the army people at least had food, drink and a decent set of clothes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just War theory is never easy to apply but I don&#8217;t think you can write off World War 1 as clearly unjust. </p>
<p>Germany was not a very pleasant country in 1914. All the traits that were to find full expression in Hitler&#8217;s movement were well represented in 1914: racism, the desire for supremacy, ignoring neutrality and subjugation of other nations. Let&#8217;s not forget that Ludendorff was a close political associate of Hitler&#8217;s after the war; that Belgium, a neutral country, was invaded or that Austria had made completely unreasonable demands of Serbia. Let&#8217;s not forget that the German armed forces did operate murderous military dictatorships in the occupied lands. </p>
<p>The options were either to let Germany roll over France, let Austria subjugate Serbia, let Germany take over huge swathes of territory in the East and allow Germany to establish hegemony over the whole of Europe &#8211; or alternatively, as happened, the option was to fight. </p>
<p>Having decided to fight, I think one can fairly lay huge blame on sh*ts of the first order like Haig for engaging in fruitless high casualty offensives.  </p>
<p>I think the right thing to do then was probably to seek all avenues for peace once the initial emergency was over. But it has to be understood &#8211; difficult though it is now to comprehend &#8211; that in many ways the war was kept going by popular demand. </p>
<p>Another heretical point I would like to make is that many Tommies came from appalling home circumstances in the UK in the slums of the great cities. They didn&#8217;t necessarily find the brutal warfare quite as traumatic as might be supposed. It was an escape from grinding poverty and the narrow life of home. Troops were actually rotated a lot and spend a good deal of time behind the lines enjoyed a good deal of recreation. In the army people at least had food, drink and a decent set of clothes.</p>
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		<title>By: field</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/25/the-last-of-the-british-veterans-of-the-wwi-trenches-died-today/comment-page-1/#comment-370753</link>
		<dc:creator>field</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19755#comment-370753</guid>
		<description>Mullah - 

No, you&#039;re completely wrong: 

&quot;to brutalize (third-person singular simple present brutalizes, present participle brutalizing, simple past and past participle brutalized)

   1. (transitive) to brutally inflict violence on someone&quot;

That&#039;s what the English did to the Welsh. Or did you think the castles were seaside homes for the English nobility? 

It was a long time ago. I am not suggesting anyone get too worked up about it now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mullah &#8211; </p>
<p>No, you&#8217;re completely wrong: </p>
<p>&#8220;to brutalize (third-person singular simple present brutalizes, present participle brutalizing, simple past and past participle brutalized)</p>
<p>   1. (transitive) to brutally inflict violence on someone&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what the English did to the Welsh. Or did you think the castles were seaside homes for the English nobility? </p>
<p>It was a long time ago. I am not suggesting anyone get too worked up about it now.</p>
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