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	<title>Comments on: Peter Tatchell Wants You To Vote Green in Norwich</title>
	<atom:link href="http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/15/peter-tatchel-wants-you-to-vote-green-in-norwich/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/15/peter-tatchel-wants-you-to-vote-green-in-norwich/</link>
	<description>Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don&#039;t want to hear</description>
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		<title>By: Alan Ji</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/15/peter-tatchel-wants-you-to-vote-green-in-norwich/comment-page-4/#comment-368197</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Ji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19350#comment-368197</guid>
		<description>Since 21:03 I&#039;ve been catching up on reading, including this thread. 

Peter Tatchell has always had a very serious naive streak. That could be what attracted him to the Green (+ naive) Party. 

Why didn&#039;t he take the hint after the Bermondsey by-election, and just fade away?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since 21:03 I&#8217;ve been catching up on reading, including this thread. </p>
<p>Peter Tatchell has always had a very serious naive streak. That could be what attracted him to the Green (+ naive) Party. </p>
<p>Why didn&#8217;t he take the hint after the Bermondsey by-election, and just fade away?</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Ji</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/15/peter-tatchel-wants-you-to-vote-green-in-norwich/comment-page-4/#comment-368192</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Ji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:03:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19350#comment-368192</guid>
		<description>Prospective Parliamentary candidate urges people to vote for by-election candidate of same party. 

Is this news?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prospective Parliamentary candidate urges people to vote for by-election candidate of same party. </p>
<p>Is this news?</p>
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		<title>By: Chas N-B</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/15/peter-tatchel-wants-you-to-vote-green-in-norwich/comment-page-4/#comment-368110</link>
		<dc:creator>Chas N-B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 09:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19350#comment-368110</guid>
		<description>I agree with Israelinurse - Peter is on very dodgy ground lecturing people on who they can and cannot consider to be antisemitic. I&#039;ve written a post about this issue here http://www.oyvagoy.com/2009/07/what-a-shame/ and I&#039;ve received feedback from quite a few people who are upset by Tatchell&#039;s endorsement of Read and his condescending response to the concerns of &#039;the people&#039; he and Read claim to be &#039;of&#039;. Still, it&#039;s been revealing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Israelinurse &#8211; Peter is on very dodgy ground lecturing people on who they can and cannot consider to be antisemitic. I&#8217;ve written a post about this issue here <a href="http://www.oyvagoy.com/2009/07/what-a-shame/" rel="nofollow">http://www.oyvagoy.com/2009/07/what-a-shame/</a> and I&#8217;ve received feedback from quite a few people who are upset by Tatchell&#8217;s endorsement of Read and his condescending response to the concerns of &#8216;the people&#8217; he and Read claim to be &#8216;of&#8217;. Still, it&#8217;s been revealing.</p>
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		<title>By: Another Penny</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/15/peter-tatchel-wants-you-to-vote-green-in-norwich/comment-page-4/#comment-368026</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Penny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 19:06:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19350#comment-368026</guid>
		<description>Peter,

The points I chose to make were related to Rupert&#039;s apparent stance on Israel because in the following snippet alone, I feel his understanding of the conflict is wanting:

“Stop supporting Israel – and, instead, boycott it, until it tears down the apartheid wall, drops its racist policies against Arabs, and frees Palestine. “

To even begin to address the lack of even-handedness and over-simplification here would take too long, but it is worrying that someone who wishes to become a parliamentarian uses the words &#039;apartheid&#039; , &#039;racism&#039; and &#039;boycott&#039; with such apparent lack of comprehension of the situation itself.

My second point was with regard to Rupert&#039;s response on this thread - although I have added an &#039;if this is Rupert&#039; proviso. When you choose to enter politics on any level, you have to realise that you are unlikely to get positive responses on all occasions. As I&#039;m sure you know, Peter, it isn&#039;t always cuddly; it can be very stressful and occasionally quite traumatic. Even at a local level, you can receive far worse than I&#039;ve seen on this thread for far, far less controversial issues. Whilst I completely understand that Rupert would be upset by Yossi&#039;s post, I was taken aback by a would-be parliamentarian using words like &#039;putrescent bile&#039;, and, &#039;what a dreadful place...&#039; etc. etc. 

These are &#039;the people&#039;, Peter, and whether you agree with them or not, at least engage with them so that either a) you learn, b) they do or c) you agree to differ. Personally, when I was a councillor I would never have dreamt of addressing people in this manner. Of course, I don&#039;t know Rupert but his response on this thread seems a little high-handed. If you want to be &#039;of the people&#039; you do have to be quite vigilant about your ego - and we&#039;re all prone to letting that slip.

Israelinurse makes some valid points, too, Peter. Perhaps I could also add to them by explaining that unfortunately, some people cloak their anti-semitism in the &#039;respectability&#039; of being &#039;anti-Israel&#039; - which appears to be almost fashionable these days. During Operation Cast Lead, for example, both my husband and I received hate mail - and we live in the UK. Those 22 days of conflict created hundreds of articles, blogs and opinions where it was quite common for people who said that they were simply against Israel&#039;s actions to unconsciously slip up by failing to differentiate between the words &#039;Israeli&#039; and &#039;Jew&#039;. 

That isn&#039;t to say that criticism of Israel should be stifled for fear of offending, but if you have a public profile, at least be fully aware of both sides of the coin from as many angles as possible, and be aware that overly-emotive language may fuel a little more than criticism of a country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter,</p>
<p>The points I chose to make were related to Rupert&#8217;s apparent stance on Israel because in the following snippet alone, I feel his understanding of the conflict is wanting:</p>
<p>“Stop supporting Israel – and, instead, boycott it, until it tears down the apartheid wall, drops its racist policies against Arabs, and frees Palestine. “</p>
<p>To even begin to address the lack of even-handedness and over-simplification here would take too long, but it is worrying that someone who wishes to become a parliamentarian uses the words &#8216;apartheid&#8217; , &#8216;racism&#8217; and &#8216;boycott&#8217; with such apparent lack of comprehension of the situation itself.</p>
<p>My second point was with regard to Rupert&#8217;s response on this thread &#8211; although I have added an &#8216;if this is Rupert&#8217; proviso. When you choose to enter politics on any level, you have to realise that you are unlikely to get positive responses on all occasions. As I&#8217;m sure you know, Peter, it isn&#8217;t always cuddly; it can be very stressful and occasionally quite traumatic. Even at a local level, you can receive far worse than I&#8217;ve seen on this thread for far, far less controversial issues. Whilst I completely understand that Rupert would be upset by Yossi&#8217;s post, I was taken aback by a would-be parliamentarian using words like &#8216;putrescent bile&#8217;, and, &#8216;what a dreadful place&#8230;&#8217; etc. etc. </p>
<p>These are &#8216;the people&#8217;, Peter, and whether you agree with them or not, at least engage with them so that either a) you learn, b) they do or c) you agree to differ. Personally, when I was a councillor I would never have dreamt of addressing people in this manner. Of course, I don&#8217;t know Rupert but his response on this thread seems a little high-handed. If you want to be &#8216;of the people&#8217; you do have to be quite vigilant about your ego &#8211; and we&#8217;re all prone to letting that slip.</p>
<p>Israelinurse makes some valid points, too, Peter. Perhaps I could also add to them by explaining that unfortunately, some people cloak their anti-semitism in the &#8216;respectability&#8217; of being &#8216;anti-Israel&#8217; &#8211; which appears to be almost fashionable these days. During Operation Cast Lead, for example, both my husband and I received hate mail &#8211; and we live in the UK. Those 22 days of conflict created hundreds of articles, blogs and opinions where it was quite common for people who said that they were simply against Israel&#8217;s actions to unconsciously slip up by failing to differentiate between the words &#8216;Israeli&#8217; and &#8216;Jew&#8217;. </p>
<p>That isn&#8217;t to say that criticism of Israel should be stifled for fear of offending, but if you have a public profile, at least be fully aware of both sides of the coin from as many angles as possible, and be aware that overly-emotive language may fuel a little more than criticism of a country.</p>
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		<title>By: Israelinurse</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/15/peter-tatchel-wants-you-to-vote-green-in-norwich/comment-page-4/#comment-367976</link>
		<dc:creator>Israelinurse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19350#comment-367976</guid>
		<description>Peter Tatchell -I think the decisions about who or what is anti-Semitic are best left to those of us who are Jewish or/and Israeli, thank you. 
Just as I would not presume to tell a gay person what he or she has the right to consider homophobic, I find it extremely patronising and somewhat paternalistic to be told what I may or may not consider anti-Semitic. 
Believe me, I have a lot more experience at recognising anti-Semites when I see them than you do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter Tatchell -I think the decisions about who or what is anti-Semitic are best left to those of us who are Jewish or/and Israeli, thank you.<br />
Just as I would not presume to tell a gay person what he or she has the right to consider homophobic, I find it extremely patronising and somewhat paternalistic to be told what I may or may not consider anti-Semitic.<br />
Believe me, I have a lot more experience at recognising anti-Semites when I see them than you do.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/15/peter-tatchel-wants-you-to-vote-green-in-norwich/comment-page-4/#comment-367932</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19350#comment-367932</guid>
		<description>P Tachell wrote:

&quot;I thought HP was above such crude, vulgar nonsense.&quot;

You have not read much on Harrys Place then?

  The witchhunts, the slurring and the smearing are the modus operandi here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P Tachell wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;I thought HP was above such crude, vulgar nonsense.&#8221;</p>
<p>You have not read much on Harrys Place then?</p>
<p>  The witchhunts, the slurring and the smearing are the modus operandi here.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Bennet</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/15/peter-tatchel-wants-you-to-vote-green-in-norwich/comment-page-4/#comment-367900</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon Bennet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19350#comment-367900</guid>
		<description>&quot;I would suggest that people’s efforts should concentrate on fighting real anti-Semities&quot;

How about those in the so-called &quot;Green Party&quot; who promote antisemitic policies? You know, the &quot;boycott Israel&quot; crowd?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I would suggest that people’s efforts should concentrate on fighting real anti-Semities&#8221;</p>
<p>How about those in the so-called &#8220;Green Party&#8221; who promote antisemitic policies? You know, the &#8220;boycott Israel&#8221; crowd?</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver Kamm</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/15/peter-tatchel-wants-you-to-vote-green-in-norwich/comment-page-4/#comment-367892</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver Kamm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19350#comment-367892</guid>
		<description>Peter, I have no reason whatever to think that Rupert Read is antisemitic and I consider it deplorable (and probably actionable) for commenters to make that suggestion based on a purported overheard conversation.  I&#039;m very sorry to see such grave and unwarranted allegations made in such a frivolous manner. 

But I don&#039;t agree that the position Read stands for is a legitimate one in the politics of a constitutional Left. The letter I quoted about the Madrid bombings leads me to that view. Read says: &quot;Aznar, Blair and Bush should choke on their words of condolence to the victims in Madrid. It is their atrocious criminal violence that has led to this counter-atrocity.”

I pointed to this letter on my site because it indicates a distinctive position of Rupert Read that is unlikely to be widely shared among the voters of Norwich North. I&#039;d genuinely be interested to know whether you think it&#039;s a reasonable position for a progressive candidate. 

I don&#039;t for a moment dispute your own record of disinterested support for human rights, incidentally. I&#039;m just asking your view on the political legitimacy of Read&#039;s position. For my part and on the evidence I&#039;ve quoted, I don&#039;t agree that Read has &quot;got vision&quot;. He seems to me to be unimaginative and doctrinaire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, I have no reason whatever to think that Rupert Read is antisemitic and I consider it deplorable (and probably actionable) for commenters to make that suggestion based on a purported overheard conversation.  I&#8217;m very sorry to see such grave and unwarranted allegations made in such a frivolous manner. </p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t agree that the position Read stands for is a legitimate one in the politics of a constitutional Left. The letter I quoted about the Madrid bombings leads me to that view. Read says: &#8220;Aznar, Blair and Bush should choke on their words of condolence to the victims in Madrid. It is their atrocious criminal violence that has led to this counter-atrocity.”</p>
<p>I pointed to this letter on my site because it indicates a distinctive position of Rupert Read that is unlikely to be widely shared among the voters of Norwich North. I&#8217;d genuinely be interested to know whether you think it&#8217;s a reasonable position for a progressive candidate. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t for a moment dispute your own record of disinterested support for human rights, incidentally. I&#8217;m just asking your view on the political legitimacy of Read&#8217;s position. For my part and on the evidence I&#8217;ve quoted, I don&#8217;t agree that Read has &#8220;got vision&#8221;. He seems to me to be unimaginative and doctrinaire.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Tatchell</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/15/peter-tatchel-wants-you-to-vote-green-in-norwich/comment-page-4/#comment-367875</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Tatchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19350#comment-367875</guid>
		<description>PS: It is a great pity this thread has not been a thoughtful, informed debate about the future of left / progressive politic - re Labour, the Greens and other parties too. There is a crisis of the left and positive suggestions about how to create a vialble, credible political alternative to neo-liberalism and Brownism might have been useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS: It is a great pity this thread has not been a thoughtful, informed debate about the future of left / progressive politic &#8211; re Labour, the Greens and other parties too. There is a crisis of the left and positive suggestions about how to create a vialble, credible political alternative to neo-liberalism and Brownism might have been useful.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Tatchell</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/15/peter-tatchel-wants-you-to-vote-green-in-norwich/comment-page-4/#comment-367871</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Tatchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:23:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=19350#comment-367871</guid>
		<description>Apologies. 

I have been away campaigning and out of internet access for the last day and a half. Hence my delay in repsonding. 

I am absolutely satisfied that Rupert Read is not anti-Semitic. His views have been twisted, distorted and misrepresented. He does not believe what some people say he does. His comments have been given a malicious spin.  

I would suggest that people&#039;s efforts should concentrate on fighting real anti-Semities, not imaginary ones. 

Given the way many people on HP has been reviled and misrepresented, I am suprised that some of them are making or tolerating what untrue, libellous statements against Rupert. 

Parts of this particular thread echo the crazed, vicious sectarianism of the far left cliques. I thought HP was above such crude, vulgar nonsense. 

My record stands for itself: I have challenged face-to-face anti-Semites including the NF, BNP, Hizb ut Tahrir and many others over many years, often when totally outnumbered. As a result I have been beaten and arrested. 

I have spoken out against the apologists for terrorism against both Palestinian and Israeli citizens, and defended the Jewish people against true anti-Semities like Hamas, Ahmadinejad, Hizbollah etc. 

I hope this clarifies. 

Best wishes, Peter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apologies. </p>
<p>I have been away campaigning and out of internet access for the last day and a half. Hence my delay in repsonding. </p>
<p>I am absolutely satisfied that Rupert Read is not anti-Semitic. His views have been twisted, distorted and misrepresented. He does not believe what some people say he does. His comments have been given a malicious spin.  </p>
<p>I would suggest that people&#8217;s efforts should concentrate on fighting real anti-Semities, not imaginary ones. </p>
<p>Given the way many people on HP has been reviled and misrepresented, I am suprised that some of them are making or tolerating what untrue, libellous statements against Rupert. </p>
<p>Parts of this particular thread echo the crazed, vicious sectarianism of the far left cliques. I thought HP was above such crude, vulgar nonsense. </p>
<p>My record stands for itself: I have challenged face-to-face anti-Semites including the NF, BNP, Hizb ut Tahrir and many others over many years, often when totally outnumbered. As a result I have been beaten and arrested. </p>
<p>I have spoken out against the apologists for terrorism against both Palestinian and Israeli citizens, and defended the Jewish people against true anti-Semities like Hamas, Ahmadinejad, Hizbollah etc. </p>
<p>I hope this clarifies. </p>
<p>Best wishes, Peter</p>
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