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	<title>Comments on: Mankind&#8217;s biggest mistake</title>
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	<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/06/mankinds-biggest-mistake/</link>
	<description>Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don&#039;t want to hear</description>
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		<title>By: sackcloth and ashes</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/06/mankinds-biggest-mistake/comment-page-2/#comment-370029</link>
		<dc:creator>sackcloth and ashes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18916#comment-370029</guid>
		<description>Just as a follow-up, Will at the Drink Soaked Trots also pays his respects to Leszek Kolakowski, even though the latter (albeit from a far more erudite and intellectually high-powered position) is renowned for condemning Communism in terms not too different from mine:

http://drinksoakedtrotsforwar.com/2009/07/20/an-appreciation-of-leszek-kolakowski-1927-2009/
http://socialistregister.com/socialistregister.com/files/SR_1974_Kolakowski.pdf

I wonder if he realises how much of a chopper he makes himself every time he gets near a keyboard ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just as a follow-up, Will at the Drink Soaked Trots also pays his respects to Leszek Kolakowski, even though the latter (albeit from a far more erudite and intellectually high-powered position) is renowned for condemning Communism in terms not too different from mine:</p>
<p><a href="http://drinksoakedtrotsforwar.com/2009/07/20/an-appreciation-of-leszek-kolakowski-1927-2009/" rel="nofollow">http://drinksoakedtrotsforwar.com/2009/07/20/an-appreciation-of-leszek-kolakowski-1927-2009/</a><br />
<a href="http://socialistregister.com/socialistregister.com/files/SR_1974_Kolakowski.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://socialistregister.com/socialistregister.com/files/SR_1974_Kolakowski.pdf</a></p>
<p>I wonder if he realises how much of a chopper he makes himself every time he gets near a keyboard &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Hector</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/06/mankinds-biggest-mistake/comment-page-2/#comment-365934</link>
		<dc:creator>Hector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18916#comment-365934</guid>
		<description>hasan prishtina:
&lt;i&gt;In Kosova and the rest of the eastern half of Europe, it is adherents of Karl Marx who brought about the abolition of “freedom of association, trade unionism and the right to withdraw one’s labour,”&lt;/i&gt;

In what way can anyone who abolished such things be counted as an adherent of Karl Marx? It&#039;s like describing Stalin as a good Christian.

&lt;i&gt;I think there is little doubt that Hoxha, at least until 1980, had the intellectual equipment to understand Marxism-Leninism and how to use it for his own benefit&lt;/i&gt;

Do you see where this brings your notion of communism as inherently evil down? You contend that Hoxha was using communism for his own benefit. You are right. The communist terrors of the C20th represent, not the instiution of communism, but the perversion of communism by new elites for their own ends. The supposed vanguards of the revolution simply became the new ruling class, the new aristocrats/plutocrats/theocrats. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hasan prishtina:<br />
<i>In Kosova and the rest of the eastern half of Europe, it is adherents of Karl Marx who brought about the abolition of “freedom of association, trade unionism and the right to withdraw one’s labour,”</i></p>
<p>In what way can anyone who abolished such things be counted as an adherent of Karl Marx? It&#8217;s like describing Stalin as a good Christian.</p>
<p><i>I think there is little doubt that Hoxha, at least until 1980, had the intellectual equipment to understand Marxism-Leninism and how to use it for his own benefit</i></p>
<p>Do you see where this brings your notion of communism as inherently evil down? You contend that Hoxha was using communism for his own benefit. You are right. The communist terrors of the C20th represent, not the instiution of communism, but the perversion of communism by new elites for their own ends. The supposed vanguards of the revolution simply became the new ruling class, the new aristocrats/plutocrats/theocrats. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.</p>
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		<title>By: socialrepublican</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/06/mankinds-biggest-mistake/comment-page-2/#comment-365404</link>
		<dc:creator>socialrepublican</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18916#comment-365404</guid>
		<description>&#039;That’s without mentioning the rather more plausible case the fascism emerged from the views of Italian and German socialists&#039;

Minor mistake there, Hasan, my good fellow.  I think you meant &#039;pathetic, a-historic and clearly polemic&#039; rather than plausible</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;That’s without mentioning the rather more plausible case the fascism emerged from the views of Italian and German socialists&#8217;</p>
<p>Minor mistake there, Hasan, my good fellow.  I think you meant &#8216;pathetic, a-historic and clearly polemic&#8217; rather than plausible</p>
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		<title>By: jack r</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/06/mankinds-biggest-mistake/comment-page-2/#comment-364807</link>
		<dc:creator>jack r</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 22:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18916#comment-364807</guid>
		<description>You´ve missed the point, either because you don´t know the history very well or you´ve not understood it well. The colonial famines in India were on a scale equivalent to those in the Ukraine (which are included in the Black Book of Communism) and caused by deliberate actions by the colonial administration. Prior to that India had experienced famines, but every other century and on a totally different scale. Slavery, though existing as a social relationship through most recorded history, never had an insitution to compete with American slavery in extent or brutality. 

I chose not to include the Cold War in the list, but I fail to see how there´s a plausible case to claim the Russians were responsible, for instance, for overthrowing Arbenz, and supporting a government that wiped out about 250,000 people. There several other dictatorships that resulted from capitalist states post-war actions and produced similar or greater death tolls. 

plenty of people believe in class struggle, as well as democracy. In case you hadn´t noticed, the vast majority of people are working class. The Bolsheviks crushed a popular, radical democracy between 1917 and 1921. But the people they crushed were communists who believed in class struggle. They founded democratically managed factories, armies and communities. And they fought the Bolsheviks when they tried to abolish them. But they were communists, and believed in class struggle. They just weren´t Stalinists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You´ve missed the point, either because you don´t know the history very well or you´ve not understood it well. The colonial famines in India were on a scale equivalent to those in the Ukraine (which are included in the Black Book of Communism) and caused by deliberate actions by the colonial administration. Prior to that India had experienced famines, but every other century and on a totally different scale. Slavery, though existing as a social relationship through most recorded history, never had an insitution to compete with American slavery in extent or brutality. </p>
<p>I chose not to include the Cold War in the list, but I fail to see how there´s a plausible case to claim the Russians were responsible, for instance, for overthrowing Arbenz, and supporting a government that wiped out about 250,000 people. There several other dictatorships that resulted from capitalist states post-war actions and produced similar or greater death tolls. </p>
<p>plenty of people believe in class struggle, as well as democracy. In case you hadn´t noticed, the vast majority of people are working class. The Bolsheviks crushed a popular, radical democracy between 1917 and 1921. But the people they crushed were communists who believed in class struggle. They founded democratically managed factories, armies and communities. And they fought the Bolsheviks when they tried to abolish them. But they were communists, and believed in class struggle. They just weren´t Stalinists.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/06/mankinds-biggest-mistake/comment-page-2/#comment-364334</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18916#comment-364334</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think there is little doubt that Hoxha, at least until 1980, had the intellectual equipment to understand Marxism-Leninism and how to use it for his own benefit&quot;

I concede the point. Now I&#039;ll wait for amazon to send me the Rise and Fall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think there is little doubt that Hoxha, at least until 1980, had the intellectual equipment to understand Marxism-Leninism and how to use it for his own benefit&#8221;</p>
<p>I concede the point. Now I&#8217;ll wait for amazon to send me the Rise and Fall.</p>
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		<title>By: hasan prishtina</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/06/mankinds-biggest-mistake/comment-page-2/#comment-364329</link>
		<dc:creator>hasan prishtina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18916#comment-364329</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Write the black book of capitalism then: even if we omit controversial examples, you´ve already got World War One, colonialism (which perpetrated the most thorough genocides of human history, those than afflicted the indigenous people of the caribbean and the Northern part of the American continent),slavery, famine (take for example the history of India in that regard. The ideas of Thomas Malthus and Adam Smith inspired the people who killed millions). That´s even without examining the extremely plausible case that fascism emerged from mainstream conservatism as a means of defending capitalism,&lt;/i&gt;

Nonsense. Slavery and famine (take the example of Egypt) are mentioned in the Bible, colonialism is ancient, and the devastation of the populations of the Americas and the Caribbean happened when the first mercantilist theorists were writing, centuries before Malthus or Smith. World War One of course would have nothing to do with Austrian/German-Russian rivalry in the Balkans, which went back to the eighteenth century. That&#039;s without mentioning the rather more plausible case the fascism emerged from the views of Italian and German socialists. Otherwise, one can point out that socialism has brought us genocide, slavery, famine and colonialism and numerous wars in a mere fraction of the time you describe. 

&lt;i&gt; or including anything from the Cold War&lt;/i&gt;

Er, the Cold War involved &lt;i&gt;more than one&lt;/i&gt; side. The enslavement of half of Europe, the siege of Berlin, the wars by proxy conducted by Cuba were all children of the socialist system. 

&lt;i&gt;Stalinism, doctrinally, had no interest in bourgeois democracy and its attendant civil liberties.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s because in socialism, all true struggle is class struggle. Each class has its representatives. In a socialist system, the ruling class is the working class and it&#039;s the working class which rules. What&#039;s the point of &#039;bourgeois democracy and its attendant civil liberties&#039; if society is run by the working class? So of course socialist societies are one-party dictatorships. A democratic society requires the ability to own property and money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Write the black book of capitalism then: even if we omit controversial examples, you´ve already got World War One, colonialism (which perpetrated the most thorough genocides of human history, those than afflicted the indigenous people of the caribbean and the Northern part of the American continent),slavery, famine (take for example the history of India in that regard. The ideas of Thomas Malthus and Adam Smith inspired the people who killed millions). That´s even without examining the extremely plausible case that fascism emerged from mainstream conservatism as a means of defending capitalism,</i></p>
<p>Nonsense. Slavery and famine (take the example of Egypt) are mentioned in the Bible, colonialism is ancient, and the devastation of the populations of the Americas and the Caribbean happened when the first mercantilist theorists were writing, centuries before Malthus or Smith. World War One of course would have nothing to do with Austrian/German-Russian rivalry in the Balkans, which went back to the eighteenth century. That&#8217;s without mentioning the rather more plausible case the fascism emerged from the views of Italian and German socialists. Otherwise, one can point out that socialism has brought us genocide, slavery, famine and colonialism and numerous wars in a mere fraction of the time you describe. </p>
<p><i> or including anything from the Cold War</i></p>
<p>Er, the Cold War involved <i>more than one</i> side. The enslavement of half of Europe, the siege of Berlin, the wars by proxy conducted by Cuba were all children of the socialist system. </p>
<p><i>Stalinism, doctrinally, had no interest in bourgeois democracy and its attendant civil liberties.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s because in socialism, all true struggle is class struggle. Each class has its representatives. In a socialist system, the ruling class is the working class and it&#8217;s the working class which rules. What&#8217;s the point of &#8216;bourgeois democracy and its attendant civil liberties&#8217; if society is run by the working class? So of course socialist societies are one-party dictatorships. A democratic society requires the ability to own property and money.</p>
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		<title>By: amie</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/06/mankinds-biggest-mistake/comment-page-2/#comment-364323</link>
		<dc:creator>amie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18916#comment-364323</guid>
		<description>sackcloth and ashes: ami and amie are one and the same. There was a hiccup for which I was blameless in having my posts as ami blocked, so I changed to amie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sackcloth and ashes: ami and amie are one and the same. There was a hiccup for which I was blameless in having my posts as ami blocked, so I changed to amie.</p>
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		<title>By: hasan prishtina</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/06/mankinds-biggest-mistake/comment-page-2/#comment-364318</link>
		<dc:creator>hasan prishtina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18916#comment-364318</guid>
		<description>Tom, &#039;The Titoites&#039; and &#039;The Anglo-Albanian Threat to Albania&#039; are relatively late works and it is possible that they, along with works like &#039;Two Friendly Peoples&#039; were never written by Hoxha. Arshi Pipa was a great scholar of literature and had a justified hatred of Hoxha, but I think his review was, not unusual among Albanians, intellectual granstanding. Opportunist scoundrel he may have been, but I think there is little doubt that Hoxha, at least until 1980, had the intellectual equipment to understand Marxism-Leninism and how to use it for his own benefit. I cannot comment on the Marxist understanding of Mao or Pol Pot, but certainly Kim Il-Sung&#039;s work seems to be somewhat detached from usual understandings of Marxism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, &#8216;The Titoites&#8217; and &#8216;The Anglo-Albanian Threat to Albania&#8217; are relatively late works and it is possible that they, along with works like &#8216;Two Friendly Peoples&#8217; were never written by Hoxha. Arshi Pipa was a great scholar of literature and had a justified hatred of Hoxha, but I think his review was, not unusual among Albanians, intellectual granstanding. Opportunist scoundrel he may have been, but I think there is little doubt that Hoxha, at least until 1980, had the intellectual equipment to understand Marxism-Leninism and how to use it for his own benefit. I cannot comment on the Marxist understanding of Mao or Pol Pot, but certainly Kim Il-Sung&#8217;s work seems to be somewhat detached from usual understandings of Marxism.</p>
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		<title>By: jack r</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/06/mankinds-biggest-mistake/comment-page-2/#comment-364216</link>
		<dc:creator>jack r</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18916#comment-364216</guid>
		<description>&quot;re: Marx has inspired plenty of mistakes.&quot; Write the black book of capitalism then: even if we omit controversial examples, you´ve already got World War One, colonialism (which perpetrated the most thorough genocides of human history, those than afflicted the indigenous people of the caribbean and the Northern part of the American continent),slavery, famine (take for example the history of India in that regard. The ideas of Thomas Malthus and Adam Smith inspired the people who killed millions). That´s even without examining the extremely plausible case that fascism emerged from mainstream conservatism as a means of defending capitalism, or including anything from the Cold War. 

Stalinism, doctrinally, had no interest in bourgeois democracy and its attendant civil liberties. Consequently the regimes that Stalinist Parties produced were one-party dictatorships. But I´m not a Stalinist, and I believe in democratic societies, actually I believe in radically more democratic societies than liberals believe in. There´s no more reason not to take that at face value, than for me to say &quot;you all believe in the tyranny of private property, therefore would let Indian people starve rather than disrupt the export of grain, it is your nature, because you believe in private property&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;re: Marx has inspired plenty of mistakes.&#8221; Write the black book of capitalism then: even if we omit controversial examples, you´ve already got World War One, colonialism (which perpetrated the most thorough genocides of human history, those than afflicted the indigenous people of the caribbean and the Northern part of the American continent),slavery, famine (take for example the history of India in that regard. The ideas of Thomas Malthus and Adam Smith inspired the people who killed millions). That´s even without examining the extremely plausible case that fascism emerged from mainstream conservatism as a means of defending capitalism, or including anything from the Cold War. </p>
<p>Stalinism, doctrinally, had no interest in bourgeois democracy and its attendant civil liberties. Consequently the regimes that Stalinist Parties produced were one-party dictatorships. But I´m not a Stalinist, and I believe in democratic societies, actually I believe in radically more democratic societies than liberals believe in. There´s no more reason not to take that at face value, than for me to say &#8220;you all believe in the tyranny of private property, therefore would let Indian people starve rather than disrupt the export of grain, it is your nature, because you believe in private property&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/07/06/mankinds-biggest-mistake/comment-page-2/#comment-364099</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18916#comment-364099</guid>
		<description>Quite a bit, as it happens. He was certainly well-versed by the time of his return to Albania in 1936 having studied at the Sorbonne and written for L’Humanite. Perhaps you should read him.

I have. At least &quot;The Anglo American Threat to Albania&quot; and &quot;The Titoites&quot;. I was influenced by Arshi Pipa&#039;s review of Jon Halliday&#039;s compilation, in which he states &quot;(Hoxha&#039;s) minimal references to Marx in his &#039;theoretical&#039; works are those of a freshman first exposed to an Introduction to Marxism course. It would seem that Hoxha is the kind of Marxist intellectual who has not read Marx&quot;. I was simply making the point that intellectual sources are likely to be of strictly secondary importance to working politicians (or dictators) who grab what they need as justification without necessarily understanding the originals. 

I remember too reading somewhere that Hoxha&#039;s supposed contributions to L&#039;Humanite have never been actually traced, and that maybe Hoxha invented his journalistic career.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite a bit, as it happens. He was certainly well-versed by the time of his return to Albania in 1936 having studied at the Sorbonne and written for L’Humanite. Perhaps you should read him.</p>
<p>I have. At least &#8220;The Anglo American Threat to Albania&#8221; and &#8220;The Titoites&#8221;. I was influenced by Arshi Pipa&#8217;s review of Jon Halliday&#8217;s compilation, in which he states &#8220;(Hoxha&#8217;s) minimal references to Marx in his &#8216;theoretical&#8217; works are those of a freshman first exposed to an Introduction to Marxism course. It would seem that Hoxha is the kind of Marxist intellectual who has not read Marx&#8221;. I was simply making the point that intellectual sources are likely to be of strictly secondary importance to working politicians (or dictators) who grab what they need as justification without necessarily understanding the originals. </p>
<p>I remember too reading somewhere that Hoxha&#8217;s supposed contributions to L&#8217;Humanite have never been actually traced, and that maybe Hoxha invented his journalistic career.</p>
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