“‘Do you have any real arguments against the judgment or are you going to carry on accusing everyone who disagrees with you of racism?’

I think zkharya answered that question a long time ago.”

Yes, I did. I said I thought my arguments were real. And as far as I can see, the only person I called a racist was Brownie.

And yes, people are incredulous about my Satmar friend’s wife and the fact that she was allowed to accept a delivery from me on the Sabbath but he wasn’t. I seem to remember it was explained to me at the time, that at some level or another she wasn’t the full article. She was someone who had converted and she was allowed to do that work. I did make a joke about him having married the shabbes goya and he laughed. I am not making this up. It was in about 1994 or 95.

Michael Rosen, 29th June

re the people I know who are in Satmar – I didn’t say that I suspected I wasn’t believed. I was just assuring people that I hadn’t made it up for effect. They’re not in Neturei Korta.

Michael Rosen, 1st July

Sadly, not the first time on an extended HP thread where Michael flatly denies having said something he’s said earlier–or perhaps he uses the word “incredulous” to mean something different from what the rest of the world understands by it. His representations in this latest comment of my earlier comments and his responses to them are equally reliable, as readers can check for themselves, and offer further insights into his politics and approach to dialogue.

As for credibility around whether his friends are Satmar Jews, it really isn’t credible that any would break the Sabbath as he recounts or hold that converts are permitted to break any one of the Sabbath prohibitions. They’re also profoundly separatist and almost never form friendships with people from other strictly orthodox groups, let alone people like Michael who they would regard as apostate Jews in terms of their militant atheism. All strictly orthodox Jews take the status of apostasy very seriously and are forbidden to associate with apostates. It’s one of the reasons Lubavitch are so controversial in the strictly orthodox community, as they gladly dialogue with and welcome Jewish apostates in order to do outreach with the aim of helping them back to Judaism.

It is the case that some Neturei Karta falsely represent themselves as Satmar, or possible that Michael assumed they were Satmar. It’s entirely consistent with Neturei Karta behaviour that they would be forming a friendship (involving delivery of unspecified objects on the Sabbath) with someone of Michael’s politics, as they demonstrate alongside the SWP, Respect, Hizbollah etc in demonstrations which call for the destruction of Israel. There are many stories of them breaking the Sabbath to do this, although I’ve previously tended to disbelieve that they do this. For an insight into their unique status as apostates and pariahs within the entire and very diverse strictly orthodox Jewish community, including Satmar Jews, see here.

1. I didn’t start the ad hominem round. Judy decided to relate in detail how and where my parents were educated. As examples they were and are completely irrelevant to the discussions going on because what took place in 1930 was under different dispensations. The only point that could be made about education then is that a lot of Jews went to some schools that had Christian foundations. I think there was another point being made and it was an attempt to contradict what I was saying by attempting to use info Judy has collected re my parents against my argument. That’s ad hominem.

2. Rank pulling. Reference back to Judy’s posts will see that she gives a long litany of her qualifications to speak on this matter as if somehow this disqualified others to speak (not specifically me). So I replied as an indication that she is not the only person here who visits schools and knows the field. DM Andy is clearly another with some specific expertise. I wasn’t attempting to pull rank, I was attempting to plead equal rights.

3. Judy declared she had been an Ofsted inspector. I didn’t raise it. She did. However, for some of us who work in education, Ofsted has been one of the most damaging, expensive and divisive institutions ever imposed on schools, teachers and children. Millions of pounds have been spent sending people into schools to police, harrass and bully teachers. The consequence is nearly always a rapid increase in the government’s worst educational policies: drilling of kids with fatuous, pointless and dull worksheets, instituting of things like ’smiley face’ charts which supposedly ‘reward’ achievement but which in fact punish the majority. In primary schools, Ofsted have had nothing to say about one of the most vital aspects of education – how, when and where children read whole books, whether schools run an active library service and/or have links with local libraries.

There was another model of school improvement available – the use of advisers, ‘cascade’ conferences of teachers, teachers’ own research of their own practice. But the government took up the policing model of SATs plus Ofsted, sidelined the existing inspectorate (because it was deemed to be too pro-teacher) and they’ve all been collectively bashing teachers ever since. No profession in the world can be improved by wielding the stick, and threatening schools with closure. The only way you can improve professions is by collectively working out how to motivate everyone in the profession through a mixture of courses, advice, and research on one’s own practices. Too bloody right, I ‘noticed’ that Judy had declared (seemingly with pride) that she had been an Ofsted inspector. Ofsted inspections have been the means by which local authority schools have been closed, and Academies (that no one has asked for) have replaced them, with a loss of local control over the education system in that locality and a handing over of control to people who happen to have a few million quid in their pocket. If people announce as part of their argument: ‘I was in the army’ or ‘I was in the police’ ’so I know what I’m talking about’ then I reckon it’s legit to comment on what one thinks of that. I’ve never noticed that HP posters are reluctant to do the same.

re the people I know who are in Satmar – I didn’t say that I suspected I wasn’t believed. I was just assuring people that I hadn’t made it up for effect. They’re not in Neturei Korta.

Venichka: “It is no business whatsoever of the state to tell religious bodies what criteria they should use to define their membership.”

I agree – and I’m atheist. If M wants his child to attend JFS, then M’s wife should convert in a manner which satisfies the school. End of story.

State subsidy of religious schools does not and should not mean interference. If non-orthodox Jews do not like the JFS rules, then they are free to start their own educational insttitutions and aplly for subsidy.

I think zkharya answered that question a long time ago.