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	<title>Comments on: A Work of Fiction</title>
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	<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/a-work-of-fiction/</link>
	<description>Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don&#039;t want to hear</description>
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		<title>By: 666</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/a-work-of-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-364134</link>
		<dc:creator>666</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:31:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18261#comment-364134</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s time we took a lead from Group 43. Fight fire with fire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s time we took a lead from Group 43. Fight fire with fire.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/a-work-of-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-362851</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18261#comment-362851</guid>
		<description>Jon

It happened outside the room. My friend forgot her jacket and we had to go back. It happened then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon</p>
<p>It happened outside the room. My friend forgot her jacket and we had to go back. It happened then.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/a-work-of-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-362124</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18261#comment-362124</guid>
		<description>Dear Jonathan.

Sorry I haven&#039;t read all of these posts but I have read the article above. Maybe someone has addressed this.
I was standing by the door of the event to which you refer when you and your friend (anne was it?) left and certainly didn&#039;t hear anyone abuse you anti semitically. In fact the only &#039;abuse&#039; I heard were people telling you to stop heckling because they wanted to hear the speaker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Jonathan.</p>
<p>Sorry I haven&#8217;t read all of these posts but I have read the article above. Maybe someone has addressed this.<br />
I was standing by the door of the event to which you refer when you and your friend (anne was it?) left and certainly didn&#8217;t hear anyone abuse you anti semitically. In fact the only &#8216;abuse&#8217; I heard were people telling you to stop heckling because they wanted to hear the speaker.</p>
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		<title>By: Philo-Semite</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/a-work-of-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-357360</link>
		<dc:creator>Philo-Semite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18261#comment-357360</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;the Nazis should have finished the job&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In my opinion, those words are an implicit threat of violence and an explicit violation of legislation against instigating race hatred.If the chamber&#039;s sergeant-at-arms (or equivalent) were present, Jonathan might have demanded the arrest of the person speaking such words.

The wilingness of the Euroleft to join with and propagate Islamism&#039;s violent hatred of Jews, makes one wonder whether Europe ever truly abandoned its nearly two-millennia-long racial and ideological (theological) hatred of Jews. I think not.

This is one of the keys to European support for the Muslim anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic stance - a hidden, perhaps unconscious wish for the Muslim world to finish the job the Europeans began. After all, if no more Jews, then no more need for European guilt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>the Nazis should have finished the job</i></p></blockquote>
<p>In my opinion, those words are an implicit threat of violence and an explicit violation of legislation against instigating race hatred.If the chamber&#8217;s sergeant-at-arms (or equivalent) were present, Jonathan might have demanded the arrest of the person speaking such words.</p>
<p>The wilingness of the Euroleft to join with and propagate Islamism&#8217;s violent hatred of Jews, makes one wonder whether Europe ever truly abandoned its nearly two-millennia-long racial and ideological (theological) hatred of Jews. I think not.</p>
<p>This is one of the keys to European support for the Muslim anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic stance &#8211; a hidden, perhaps unconscious wish for the Muslim world to finish the job the Europeans began. After all, if no more Jews, then no more need for European guilt.</p>
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		<title>By: zkharya</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/a-work-of-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-357135</link>
		<dc:creator>zkharya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 23:49:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18261#comment-357135</guid>
		<description>He set up or got involved with the PSoc at Cambridge. My guess he&#039;s been into it from at least his teens, probably at least tangentially related to Anglican youth particaption or work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He set up or got involved with the PSoc at Cambridge. My guess he&#8217;s been into it from at least his teens, probably at least tangentially related to Anglican youth particaption or work.</p>
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		<title>By: zkharya</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/a-work-of-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-357131</link>
		<dc:creator>zkharya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 23:44:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18261#comment-357131</guid>
		<description>Petra,

his thesis was comparing Native American poetic accounts of dispossession with Palestinian. The latter was the important thing, the former a lense/mould through/into which to see/force it.

His pro-Palestinian Christian and Muslim ethicism/ethnicism is surely of the EI variety, yes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Petra,</p>
<p>his thesis was comparing Native American poetic accounts of dispossession with Palestinian. The latter was the important thing, the former a lense/mould through/into which to see/force it.</p>
<p>His pro-Palestinian Christian and Muslim ethicism/ethnicism is surely of the EI variety, yes.</p>
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		<title>By: PetraMB</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/a-work-of-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-357121</link>
		<dc:creator>PetraMB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 23:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18261#comment-357121</guid>
		<description>Not sure zkharyia what you mean. Re. the American Indians, as far as I know, this was his graduation thesis, and he then went on to the I/P issue. If he published anything before, I wouldn&#039;t know it.
Re. the religious background, no doubt that my knowledge and understanding of that is limited; but I have said upthread that I think this plays an important part, either as a genuinely held belief, or an opportunistically seized platform that was easily accessible to him. As to the obvious bigotry in his views, i.e. that his position boils down to claiming that the Palestinian right to self-determination includes the right to deny Jewish self-determination, this is certainly something I agree with, since I have said this already upthread. 
However, you emphasize that you &quot;don&#039;t have problem with pro-Palestinian Christian (and by extension, Muslim) nationalism.&quot; Take into account, though, that BW champions a particular brand of this &quot;nationalism&quot;, namely the Electronic Intifada/Ali Abunimah line, which is against the current PA, against all  negotiations, and for a 1state &quot;solution&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure zkharyia what you mean. Re. the American Indians, as far as I know, this was his graduation thesis, and he then went on to the I/P issue. If he published anything before, I wouldn&#8217;t know it.<br />
Re. the religious background, no doubt that my knowledge and understanding of that is limited; but I have said upthread that I think this plays an important part, either as a genuinely held belief, or an opportunistically seized platform that was easily accessible to him. As to the obvious bigotry in his views, i.e. that his position boils down to claiming that the Palestinian right to self-determination includes the right to deny Jewish self-determination, this is certainly something I agree with, since I have said this already upthread.<br />
However, you emphasize that you &#8220;don&#8217;t have problem with pro-Palestinian Christian (and by extension, Muslim) nationalism.&#8221; Take into account, though, that BW champions a particular brand of this &#8220;nationalism&#8221;, namely the Electronic Intifada/Ali Abunimah line, which is against the current PA, against all  negotiations, and for a 1state &#8220;solution&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: zkharya</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/a-work-of-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-357091</link>
		<dc:creator>zkharya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18261#comment-357091</guid>
		<description>Ben has since restored my posts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben has since restored my posts.</p>
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		<title>By: zkharya</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/a-work-of-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-357075</link>
		<dc:creator>zkharya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18261#comment-357075</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a bit tired, Petra, just now, but I think you get Ben wrong on quite a few fronts. One, he didn&#039;t start off with Native Americans. He started with Palestinian Christians and Muslims. He drew in the Native Americans because he wanted to poetically conflate a European colonial-Native American colonized model with Israel-Palestine.

That&#039;s more or less where he is now, with a few tweaks.

Two, I suspect he comes from an Anglican Youth background. Insufficiently ethnic or Gospel enough for him. Living the Gospel is identifying with the plight of Palestinian Christians and Muslims. Fine.

He wrote a long article in the CofE journal Third Way, ostensibly about Africa, but really as background to claiming his identifying with Palestinian Christians, and, by extension, Muslims, was in nowise Christian nationalist.

The trouble is his identifying with Palestinian Christians and Muslims has led him in nowise to recognising any justice or right in Zionism or Jewish claims to the land. Which I think, from a Christian view, extremely problematical. It looks a lot like he equates the Gospel with Anti-Zionism.

That is why, I think, his  pro-Palestinian Christian ethicism is deficient and actually becomes a kind of ethnicism i.e. nationalism.

Again, I don&#039;t have problem with pro-Palestinian Christian (and by extension, Muslim) nationalism. The problem is when one holds that view to mutually exclude, at some fundamental level, the legitimacy of Jewish.

That view, I think, extremely problematical from a Christian view.

But Ben is hoping to sway the Anglican church into anti-Zionism, I think, in no small part by this book, which looks like it is partly aimed at a youth market (a &quot;beginners guide&quot;, hip, trendy) which looks like a kind of

Anti-Zionist Gospel according to Ben White.

I think this is for him in what Evangelism consists (for he is an Evangelical, I believe). But, like I said, precluding any fundamental justice to Zionism is, I think, from a Christian view, problematical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a bit tired, Petra, just now, but I think you get Ben wrong on quite a few fronts. One, he didn&#8217;t start off with Native Americans. He started with Palestinian Christians and Muslims. He drew in the Native Americans because he wanted to poetically conflate a European colonial-Native American colonized model with Israel-Palestine.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s more or less where he is now, with a few tweaks.</p>
<p>Two, I suspect he comes from an Anglican Youth background. Insufficiently ethnic or Gospel enough for him. Living the Gospel is identifying with the plight of Palestinian Christians and Muslims. Fine.</p>
<p>He wrote a long article in the CofE journal Third Way, ostensibly about Africa, but really as background to claiming his identifying with Palestinian Christians, and, by extension, Muslims, was in nowise Christian nationalist.</p>
<p>The trouble is his identifying with Palestinian Christians and Muslims has led him in nowise to recognising any justice or right in Zionism or Jewish claims to the land. Which I think, from a Christian view, extremely problematical. It looks a lot like he equates the Gospel with Anti-Zionism.</p>
<p>That is why, I think, his  pro-Palestinian Christian ethicism is deficient and actually becomes a kind of ethnicism i.e. nationalism.</p>
<p>Again, I don&#8217;t have problem with pro-Palestinian Christian (and by extension, Muslim) nationalism. The problem is when one holds that view to mutually exclude, at some fundamental level, the legitimacy of Jewish.</p>
<p>That view, I think, extremely problematical from a Christian view.</p>
<p>But Ben is hoping to sway the Anglican church into anti-Zionism, I think, in no small part by this book, which looks like it is partly aimed at a youth market (a &#8220;beginners guide&#8221;, hip, trendy) which looks like a kind of</p>
<p>Anti-Zionist Gospel according to Ben White.</p>
<p>I think this is for him in what Evangelism consists (for he is an Evangelical, I believe). But, like I said, precluding any fundamental justice to Zionism is, I think, from a Christian view, problematical.</p>
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		<title>By: PetraMB</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/a-work-of-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-357069</link>
		<dc:creator>PetraMB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=18261#comment-357069</guid>
		<description>Gwunderi, interesting observations, and interesting that they openly advocate ablolishing Israel. So Tutu then doesn&#039;t have a problem with that -- not a big surprise.

zkharyia, obviously BW doesn&#039;t want to be too explicit about the 1state solution. However, the text you quote from his book shows that he regards the establishment of Israel as illegitimate, i.e. as an &quot;injustice&quot; done to the Palestinians, and he demands that they will get &quot;justice&quot;... Moreover, he has very clearly condemned all negotiations, starting from Oslo, as futile, because in his view, they can not produce results that would reflect Palestinian aspirations to &quot;justice&quot;. I think all in all, it&#039;s clear enough for what he stands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gwunderi, interesting observations, and interesting that they openly advocate ablolishing Israel. So Tutu then doesn&#8217;t have a problem with that &#8212; not a big surprise.</p>
<p>zkharyia, obviously BW doesn&#8217;t want to be too explicit about the 1state solution. However, the text you quote from his book shows that he regards the establishment of Israel as illegitimate, i.e. as an &#8220;injustice&#8221; done to the Palestinians, and he demands that they will get &#8220;justice&#8221;&#8230; Moreover, he has very clearly condemned all negotiations, starting from Oslo, as futile, because in his view, they can not produce results that would reflect Palestinian aspirations to &#8220;justice&#8221;. I think all in all, it&#8217;s clear enough for what he stands.</p>
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