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	<title>Comments on: Iranian Election &#8211; no statistical smoking gun, but a possibly a crime scene</title>
	<atom:link href="http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/13/iranian-election-no-statistical-smoking-gun-but-a-possibly-a-crime-scene/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/13/iranian-election-no-statistical-smoking-gun-but-a-possibly-a-crime-scene/</link>
	<description>Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don&#039;t want to hear</description>
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		<title>By: DocMartyn</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/13/iranian-election-no-statistical-smoking-gun-but-a-possibly-a-crime-scene/comment-page-1/#comment-354631</link>
		<dc:creator>DocMartyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:47:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=17924#comment-354631</guid>
		<description>I had a look at the numbers this morning, and they clearly show that they are bogus. Ignore the R^2 value for a moment, you should concentrate on the intercepts. 

The plot of totals vs Ahmedinejad and Mousavi is clearly fake; the two lines have the following algorithms:-

Ahmedinejad = ((total-488149)*0.6562)+488149

Where on a spreadsheet the user can change the total and the % support (65.62) for Ahmedinejad.

Mousavi = ((total-488149)*(1-0.6562)-488149

it is quite obvious that the pair of algorithms were designed to be able to provide Ahmedinejad with a 2*(488149) or 976298 vote greater than Mousavi. The planned % to be awarded to Ahmedinejad was probably in the order of 55%.
i.e. with a total of 39,270,000 and a 5% loss to the other two candidates+ spoilt ballots, an input of 55% for Ahmedinejad gives 20,570,000 and 16,830,000.

But they panicked, probably when he only got 30% of the ballots, and gave him 65% instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a look at the numbers this morning, and they clearly show that they are bogus. Ignore the R^2 value for a moment, you should concentrate on the intercepts. </p>
<p>The plot of totals vs Ahmedinejad and Mousavi is clearly fake; the two lines have the following algorithms:-</p>
<p>Ahmedinejad = ((total-488149)*0.6562)+488149</p>
<p>Where on a spreadsheet the user can change the total and the % support (65.62) for Ahmedinejad.</p>
<p>Mousavi = ((total-488149)*(1-0.6562)-488149</p>
<p>it is quite obvious that the pair of algorithms were designed to be able to provide Ahmedinejad with a 2*(488149) or 976298 vote greater than Mousavi. The planned % to be awarded to Ahmedinejad was probably in the order of 55%.<br />
i.e. with a total of 39,270,000 and a 5% loss to the other two candidates+ spoilt ballots, an input of 55% for Ahmedinejad gives 20,570,000 and 16,830,000.</p>
<p>But they panicked, probably when he only got 30% of the ballots, and gave him 65% instead.</p>
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		<title>By: thomas k</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/13/iranian-election-no-statistical-smoking-gun-but-a-possibly-a-crime-scene/comment-page-1/#comment-354500</link>
		<dc:creator>thomas k</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 12:10:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=17924#comment-354500</guid>
		<description>&quot; Cole is no Neocon which makes his position more interesting&quot;.

Yet his analysis is clearly agenda-driven.
Obamas policy of engaging with the Iranian regime rather than
isolate it would lose credibility if the hardliners won a legitimate
landslide victory in an election.
And why is it so unlikely,that Ahmedinejad has won in Tehran?
He is the citys former mayor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; Cole is no Neocon which makes his position more interesting&#8221;.</p>
<p>Yet his analysis is clearly agenda-driven.<br />
Obamas policy of engaging with the Iranian regime rather than<br />
isolate it would lose credibility if the hardliners won a legitimate<br />
landslide victory in an election.<br />
And why is it so unlikely,that Ahmedinejad has won in Tehran?<br />
He is the citys former mayor.</p>
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		<title>By: angrysoba</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/13/iranian-election-no-statistical-smoking-gun-but-a-possibly-a-crime-scene/comment-page-1/#comment-354467</link>
		<dc:creator>angrysoba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=17924#comment-354467</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What about the defeat for the progressive cause in Iran and the fact this will make military action more likely? &lt;/i&gt;

Mike, it is interesting that you say this will make military action &quot;more likely&quot;. Who will initiate military action and why?

Shouldn&#039;t we seperate out the &quot;progressive cause&quot; which is something we all should be behind and &quot;military action&quot; which we should not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What about the defeat for the progressive cause in Iran and the fact this will make military action more likely? </i></p>
<p>Mike, it is interesting that you say this will make military action &#8220;more likely&#8221;. Who will initiate military action and why?</p>
<p>Shouldn&#8217;t we seperate out the &#8220;progressive cause&#8221; which is something we all should be behind and &#8220;military action&#8221; which we should not.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil D</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/13/iranian-election-no-statistical-smoking-gun-but-a-possibly-a-crime-scene/comment-page-1/#comment-354458</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 08:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=17924#comment-354458</guid>
		<description>Yes, but Cole is no Neocon which makes his position more interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but Cole is no Neocon which makes his position more interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruno Mota</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/13/iranian-election-no-statistical-smoking-gun-but-a-possibly-a-crime-scene/comment-page-1/#comment-354449</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruno Mota</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 04:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=17924#comment-354449</guid>
		<description>Neither the proof nor the refutation of fraud are proper statistical analyses. The near-constant ratio between the candidate&#039;s vote totals would make sense only if the votes in each partial result were approximately an representative sample of the total vote. Which would mean that either:


a) Iranian precincts or districts count and report votes at approximately the same rate.

or

b) For each partial result the tallied vote ratios just happen to coincide with those of the complete result, because reporting places which are more pro-opposition than average just happen to balance out pro-government places

or

c) There is a reporting bias, i.e., some kinds of precints/voting sites/districts count and report votes at different rates*, but voting patterns are approximately the same across the country and between cities and countryside.

Now, a) is conceivable in theory, but from what I read reporting was not uniform. b) requires a series of unlikely coincidences, and c) would mean voting patterns have changed significantly (and congruently) between past elections and the last one.

None of this proves fraud, but certainly seem to suggest it. A proper statistical analysis would take as the null hypothesis the non-existence of fraud, and try to quantify how unlikely that would be. It would be virtually impossible to disguise massive fraud from a full statistical analysis of voting patterns, if detailed results were available. For some reason, I suspect they won&#039;t be. But even with coarser data, one could

- Prove or disprove a) by simple inspection of the places included in each partial tally

- Prove or disprove b) by inspecting subtotal in each tally

- Test c) by comparing reported voting patterns (as a function of region, urbanization and whatnot) in this election with those of past elections.

The catch is that, while we can in principle exclude a) and b), we can at most say about c) that &#039;Either there was fraud, or voting patterns changes in such-and-such way&#039;. One is then left with the somewhat subjective task of estimating the likelihood of such a change. This is what Iranian experts are for, and this is where the debate should occur. Of course, were we to be told that, for instance, the ratio between Obama and McCain votes wa the same in both Illinois and Arizona, we would be pretty sure there was something wrong with the results. From the fragmentary reports I&#039;ve read, which seem to be based as of yet on very incomplete data, the reported voting patterns in Iran seem equally implausible. We should not rush to judgment, but my preliminary impression is that this election does indeed look fishy.


__________________
* E.g. smaller rural precincts count quicker than big urban ones, or eastern regions count earlier than western because most people vote before sunset</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neither the proof nor the refutation of fraud are proper statistical analyses. The near-constant ratio between the candidate&#8217;s vote totals would make sense only if the votes in each partial result were approximately an representative sample of the total vote. Which would mean that either:</p>
<p>a) Iranian precincts or districts count and report votes at approximately the same rate.</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>b) For each partial result the tallied vote ratios just happen to coincide with those of the complete result, because reporting places which are more pro-opposition than average just happen to balance out pro-government places</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>c) There is a reporting bias, i.e., some kinds of precints/voting sites/districts count and report votes at different rates*, but voting patterns are approximately the same across the country and between cities and countryside.</p>
<p>Now, a) is conceivable in theory, but from what I read reporting was not uniform. b) requires a series of unlikely coincidences, and c) would mean voting patterns have changed significantly (and congruently) between past elections and the last one.</p>
<p>None of this proves fraud, but certainly seem to suggest it. A proper statistical analysis would take as the null hypothesis the non-existence of fraud, and try to quantify how unlikely that would be. It would be virtually impossible to disguise massive fraud from a full statistical analysis of voting patterns, if detailed results were available. For some reason, I suspect they won&#8217;t be. But even with coarser data, one could</p>
<p>- Prove or disprove a) by simple inspection of the places included in each partial tally</p>
<p>- Prove or disprove b) by inspecting subtotal in each tally</p>
<p>- Test c) by comparing reported voting patterns (as a function of region, urbanization and whatnot) in this election with those of past elections.</p>
<p>The catch is that, while we can in principle exclude a) and b), we can at most say about c) that &#8216;Either there was fraud, or voting patterns changes in such-and-such way&#8217;. One is then left with the somewhat subjective task of estimating the likelihood of such a change. This is what Iranian experts are for, and this is where the debate should occur. Of course, were we to be told that, for instance, the ratio between Obama and McCain votes wa the same in both Illinois and Arizona, we would be pretty sure there was something wrong with the results. From the fragmentary reports I&#8217;ve read, which seem to be based as of yet on very incomplete data, the reported voting patterns in Iran seem equally implausible. We should not rush to judgment, but my preliminary impression is that this election does indeed look fishy.</p>
<p>__________________<br />
* E.g. smaller rural precincts count quicker than big urban ones, or eastern regions count earlier than western because most people vote before sunset</p>
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		<title>By: chuck</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/13/iranian-election-no-statistical-smoking-gun-but-a-possibly-a-crime-scene/comment-page-1/#comment-354436</link>
		<dc:creator>chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 01:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=17924#comment-354436</guid>
		<description>Cole&#039;s &quot;argument&quot; for a stolen election is a poorly written sketch for a whodunnit. The election may well have been stolen. Then again, the conservative majority in the small towns may have been overlooked by the analysts and wishful thinkers. I don&#039;t know. But Cole&#039;s screed is worthless as a source of information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cole&#8217;s &#8220;argument&#8221; for a stolen election is a poorly written sketch for a whodunnit. The election may well have been stolen. Then again, the conservative majority in the small towns may have been overlooked by the analysts and wishful thinkers. I don&#8217;t know. But Cole&#8217;s screed is worthless as a source of information.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/13/iranian-election-no-statistical-smoking-gun-but-a-possibly-a-crime-scene/comment-page-1/#comment-354429</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=17924#comment-354429</guid>
		<description>It may well be the case that some fraud occurred but it wasn&#039;t enough to change the result - indeed I suspected this is what most likely happened. What annoys me, as ever, is you get all these people on the &quot;left&quot; who use the opportunity to reflexively propagandise in favour of Ahmadinejad and against the west. God they are irriating. What about the defeat for the progressive cause in Iran and the fact this will make military action more likely? They don&#039;t don&#039;t give a shit. They just want another pointy finger guy in the middle east who bashes Israel and the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may well be the case that some fraud occurred but it wasn&#8217;t enough to change the result &#8211; indeed I suspected this is what most likely happened. What annoys me, as ever, is you get all these people on the &#8220;left&#8221; who use the opportunity to reflexively propagandise in favour of Ahmadinejad and against the west. God they are irriating. What about the defeat for the progressive cause in Iran and the fact this will make military action more likely? They don&#8217;t don&#8217;t give a shit. They just want another pointy finger guy in the middle east who bashes Israel and the US.</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/13/iranian-election-no-statistical-smoking-gun-but-a-possibly-a-crime-scene/comment-page-1/#comment-354428</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:40:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=17924#comment-354428</guid>
		<description>p.s. My statistical intuitions about that graph were correct mesquito. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s. My statistical intuitions about that graph were correct mesquito. ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/13/iranian-election-no-statistical-smoking-gun-but-a-possibly-a-crime-scene/comment-page-1/#comment-354427</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=17924#comment-354427</guid>
		<description>Hamas denial? What a prick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hamas denial? What a prick.</p>
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		<title>By: mesquito</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/06/13/iranian-election-no-statistical-smoking-gun-but-a-possibly-a-crime-scene/comment-page-1/#comment-354421</link>
		<dc:creator>mesquito</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:20:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=17924#comment-354421</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;PS, where is Roger Cohen?&lt;/em&gt;

Har. He can hardly fail to disappoint, having cut this gem:

&lt;blockquote&gt;One way to look at Iran’s scurrilous anti-Israel tirades is as a provocation to focus people on Israel’s bomb, its 41-year occupation of the West Bank, its Hamas denial, its repetitive use of overwhelming force. Iranian language can be vile, but any Middle East peace — and engagement with Tehran — will have to take account of these points.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/23/opinion/23cohen.html

God bless The New York Times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>PS, where is Roger Cohen?</em></p>
<p>Har. He can hardly fail to disappoint, having cut this gem:</p>
<blockquote><p>One way to look at Iran’s scurrilous anti-Israel tirades is as a provocation to focus people on Israel’s bomb, its 41-year occupation of the West Bank, its Hamas denial, its repetitive use of overwhelming force. Iranian language can be vile, but any Middle East peace — and engagement with Tehran — will have to take account of these points.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/23/opinion/23cohen.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/23/opinion/23cohen.html</a></p>
<p>God bless The New York Times.</p>
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