Harry's Place

“Chosenites” and other jokes about the “Chosen People” are NOT antisemitic.

Or else, why would the Royal Court or the Guardian have put on Seven Jewish Children, in which Jews were depicted as invoking their supposed status as the “Chosen People” to justify their exemption from the common rules of morality?

Likewise, it is quite acceptable for anti-racists to make jokes about Jews, their boundless wealth, and the financial crisis. Why, even members of the Socialist Workers’ Party make jokes about things like this!

Yes, I know the Holocaust stuff may be regarded as a little bit near the knuckle. But if it is ok for Ahmedinijad and Hamas, then why not the BNP, eh?

What David says is, of course, true. I don’t care who promotes anti-Semitism and tolerates or promotes Holocaust denial in their ranks, they’re all disgusting. However, thankfully, the SWP and Hamas aren’t seeking election to the European Parliament, whereas the Green Arrow’s beloved ‘Party’ is.

We need to fight all forms of hate politics and extremism, and some commenters here need to be clear that if you won’t tolerate this kind of shit from Islamists and the far-Left, then you damn well better not tolerate it when it’s ‘right wingers’ doing the talking.

You see David’s mentality. Faced with real, nasty and dangerous anti-Semitism his response is to use it to take a swipe at those people who are vocally sympathetic to the Palestinians. You don’t really think that Carol Churchill’s play deserves to be compared to this kind of hatred. You just don’t give a damn about anti-Semitism, do you David, apart from how it’s useful for you to forward your political agenda.

Fuck you.

Likewise.

Naah, bolloxs, that’s it. You’re out of this site.

Fuck right off. Don’t come back. You are filthy scum.

The Irie:

“You just don’t give a damn about anti-Semitism, do you David, apart from how it’s useful for you to forward your political agenda.”

Ironically, that’s exactly what fascist anti-semites and extreme-left anti-semites say.

RE: The question is, why is an active BNP member and speaker happy to uncritically reproduce material from such a website, and why is he incapable of seeing anti-Semitism when it stares him in the face?

Given that the BNP is an avowedly racist party, I’m not sure I understand why this is the question or why the question has to be asked in the first place. If the story were a newspaper headline, it would be “racist is anti-semitic” and would never make the editorial cut.

You just don’t give a damn about anti-Semitism, do you David, apart from how it’s useful for you to forward your political agenda.

An utterly disgraceful comment.

Not least because it implies that David T’s “political agenda” is not to counter anti-semitism, but to be anti-Palestinian.

Awful.

Well done to David T for reminding us of the possibility that the Royal Court Theatre might win seats in the European Parliament tomorrow.

Nice one, David. But as a left-wing anti-EU type, whom should I vote for?

I think that there is little chance – even now, with the main parties in meltdown – of the BNP “coming to power” in any real sense.

My main concern about the BNP is twofold:

1. It is an organised fascist party, which stands for everything that any liberal or progressive, or democrat, or egalitarian believes in. This is why it is incumbent on us all to oppose the BNP, wherever it stands, and whatever it does, irrespective of its prospects of “coming to power”.

2. The BNP in power may break through the ‘cordon sanitaire’ that has kept it out of the mainstream. Quite rightly: it is not a mainstream party. No other party I can think of restricts its membership to white people, for example.

Why do I care about the cordon sanitaire?

The BNP chooses its issues, specifically in order to whip up hatred of minorities. As things stand, key BNP issues – take “repatriation” for example – are not part of our political discourse. I do not want the BNP, as part of our political mainstream, pushing issues such as these, for the sole purpose of vilifying minority groups.

As thing stand, with the BNP largely out on a limb, there’s no reason to treat their political demands seriously. Mainstream politicians do not appear on Question Time with Nick Griffin, debating the merits of “send ‘em back”.

As long as the BNP remains a minority party of bigots and cranks – which is pretty much all it is – we don’t have to dignify their weird and nasty politics by seriously engaging with it. That is because only a tiny minority of the people in this country are racists and want to see racist policies enacted against their friends and colleagues.

So far, the cordon sanitaire is holding up really well, I think.

It goes without saying that there is no such cordon sanitaire when it comes to antisemitism.

Labour and other left wing MPs organise and attend meetings and rallies with members of genocidal antisemitic groups, and attack as racists anybody who points this out.

There is a real possibility that Iran will produce a nuclear bomb, and then use it to kill millions of Jews in Israel. Britain is full of progressive thinkers and journalists, who insist – even in the face of huge evidence to the contrary – that this is not what Iran intends to do at all. And this is considered acceptable and mainstream thinking on the subject.

It is considered acceptable, on the messageboards of newspapers like the Indie, or in the ranks of the SWP, to claim that rich and powerful Jews are conspiring against all that is good and noble.

Mearsheimer and Walt – despite being rejected by the likes of Chomsky – have become the respectable alibi for arguing that Jews control America.

The BNP and its members will most certainly be involved in more acts of violence – and domestic terrorism – than polite British antisemites.

But at least nobody progressive would ever try to defend them, or attack me for taking them on.

However, if you point out the level of antisemitism on the progressive Left, you’ll be attacked as a person who argues in bad faith.

In all fairness, TheIrie is incredibly thick.

There was a discussion, earlier on, concerning the racist content of Churchill’s Seven Jewish children, and one of the many points raised was that the use of the “chosen people” with a negative connotation is a traditional Extreme Right meme.

However, Mike Rosen denied that was the case. See http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/05/20/explaining-it-to-michael-rosen/

So the above post is evidence that Mike Rosen, along with many others, doesn’t know his arse from his elbow on this topic.

Again, the whole notion of “chosen people” when used to attack Jews is a well established Extreme Right tactic.

So it would be far better if “anti-Zionists” made an effort to understand that and not defend the use of these racist memes.

arhh Moderation queue, please release me !!!!!!!

What’s going on? My comment had already appeared, Brett responded to it.

And now both our comments have disappeared!

I think the point is this. There is a part of the far Left that claims to be anti-racist.

But they’re not.

They’re opposed to certain racist groups, but not others.

In fact, they support some racist groups. They’ll defend their own racists, even if they say exactly the same thing as the racists they attack. They’ll minimise or contextualise that racism, and if they can’t do that, they’ll attack the messenger. They do it cynically, and they do it consistently.

Yet – and this is really amazing – the SWP/SA front group has, for a number of years, recruited on the basis that it was the leader of anti-racist politics in this country.

We cannot defeat racist and fascist politics, as long as it is run by members of groups which themselves defend and promote racists.

(Sorry Edmund…)

Mark, terribly sorry, just “pruning”.

Of course another important function of the cordon sanitaire is that it frightens off most people who have proper lives, jobs etc. from getting involved with the BNP. This ensures that BNP activism is largely confined to idiots, nutters and losers, who may be potentially more dangerous but who at least are easier to see off. It’s the Nick Griffins we need to worry about, not the Lee Barneses.

Griffin isn’t all that, either.

Ben Helfgott has done more for British pride than Paul Morris could dream of:

He represented Great Britain at weightlifting in the 1956 Summer Olympics at Melbourne, Australia. He was the captain of the British weightlifting teams at the Olympics in 1956 (Melbourne) and 1960 (Rome).

In addition, he was a bronze medal winner at the 1958 British Empire and Commonwealth Games held in Cardiff, south Wales.

Who votes for the BNP?

What I mean by that is, what percentage of people who vote for them are out-and-out racists, and what percentage are ‘protest’ voters?

I suppose the results tomorrow will give us some idea of the answer, if they get significantly more votes than usual.

Do the London bookies have an opinion about how many, if any, Euro-seats the Fascist Beasts* of the BNP will snatch?

*Old term from Pravda. Good, innit?

Griffin isn’t all that, either.

This is one of the reasons I don’t think the sky will fall in if he wins a seat in the European Parliament. The is it’s only a bloody seat in the European Parliament. It would place him on a par with Jean Lambert. What incredible power that woman wields, sitting in subplenary committees in L’Espace Leopold with one of those little earpieces translating some guy from Austria. Now imagine Griffin doing that, imagine him as one of the 785 poor sods that have to sit through those things. Terrifying.

It would keep him out of the country as well.

He won’t necessarily even turn up.

However, getting elected makes it more difficult to keep the cordon sanitaire in place. That is because, as a matter of fact, you have been elected, and it would be improper to – for example – never invite you to appear of Question Time.

What the BNP will “win” by winning, is ordinariness, and semi-respectability.

>>> We need to fight all forms of hate politics and extremism, and some commenters here need to be clear that if you won’t tolerate this kind of shit from Islamists…

… except of course the kind of hate politics that is not these days considered “extreme” but on the contrary entirely “politically correct” and indeed de rigueur at Harrys Place. Such as hatred of muslims or anti-Zionist Jews.

>>> You just don’t give a damn about anti-Semitism, do you David, apart from how it’s useful for you to forward your political agenda.

This is partly true. I suspect he does genuinely care about anti-Semitism.

However he and others like him have extended the term to advance their own political agenda. Anti-semitism used to mean hatred of Jews. Nowadays people like DavidT. want it to mean any criticism of Israel, especially when it is expressed by people of Jewish ancestry and in particular if they are talented or intellectually gifted people, such as Gilad Atzmon or Noam Chomsky. They invite us to hate the anti-Zionist Jew.

In general, anyone who expresses sympathy for the Palestinians is condemned as an anti-semite. It’s ridiculous, obscene even. But I don’t think we should be bullied by Zionists anymore.

This is a very feeble accusation. Just because somebody uses something off a website it doesn’t mean they agree with everything else on there.

I did some Googling and found this from a couple of months ago opn the green Arrow blog: http://isupporttheresistance.blogspot.com/2009/03/letter-to-british-jews.html

“I have been involved in Nationalist politics for over 30 years now and have sometimes wondered why almost all our Foreign Secretaries and Key Ministers always seem to have Jewish origins and whether perhaps their loyalties are greater towards the interests of Israel than the United Kingdom.

On an international level I have also wondered whether people like President Sarkozy of France who is also Jewish have any real loyalty to the countries they have made home.

And along with almost every nationalist I have ever spoken to, I came to the conclusion that British Jews support for Israel does not affect their love or loyalty toward Great Britain. A land where they have prospered and a land they they have contributed to. A land where they are safe.

Many Jewish sites have recently done a lot of research into the views of the British National Party towards British Jews and found not one shred of evidence of the BNP attacking Jews in any sense.

In fact it is now only the British National Party that seems to recognise the rights of Jews to survive as a people and Israel to survive as a nation.

The other parties seem to have cast the Jews aside as they build closer links to the new money of Islam. But unlike those parties, the BNP does not drop a core believe just for financial or political gain in scrabbling for the votes of the moslems they continually import to prop up their failing Establishment.”

I would say that is more pro-Jewish than anti.

He’d be neutralised, wouldn’t he. Is there anything on earth blander than an EU Fisheries debate? We should fill the place with our loudest rabble rousers and neuter them by simultaneous translation of Codecision procedures. Get a Swiss bloke in glasses slowly translating Abu Qatada to someone from Oslo.

Get a Swiss bloke in glasses slowly translating Abu Qatada to someone from Oslo.

Now I understand why people say Al Qaeda hate us for our democracy.

Haven’t you got some A-levels you should be revising for, Internationalist?

And, as an example of the phenomenon of anti-racists who support racists, we have Internationalist, who comes onto this blog to praise Gilad Atzmon: a man who claims that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion accurately depict the reality of Jewish Power.

People know that the BNP is a racist party. Even people who support the BNP know this. That’s why they support this.

There are people running self proclaimed anti-racist organisations, whose idea of anti-racism activism, is attacking people for pointing out that Gilad Atzmon is a raving antisemite.

This is a huge problem.

Trouble is, Griffin would be raking in a good salary as an MEP, which he will then spend on campaigning for his foul party.

Don’t blame you for banning TheEyrieofStupidity, David T. That was one of the most disgusting comments I’ve seen made here, and that’s among strong competition. I always thought TheIrie was a well-meaning idiot with comprehension problems rather than a malevolent shit. Seems I was wrong.

“In general, anyone who expresses sympathy for the Palestinians is condemned as an anti-semite. “

What utter, utter, fucking twaddle.

This underlines the need for the conservatives to step up to the plate and steal their thunder.

Sadly, the BNP are the only party that looks strong on immigration, Islamism and British pride. And whether you agree with them on these issues or not…indeed whether or not you will ever vote Tory, it’s gotta be more health that the Tory Party represents these policies.

well, I never, the “Internationalist” is a fan of Gilad Atzmon?

Perhaps he or another “anti-Zionist” would care to explain away Atzmon’s use of the very old antisemitic “Jews finance revolution and wars” lie?

see http://tinyurl.com/r2xxkr [a cached link to Atzmon's - Credit Crunch or rather Zio Punch? article]

this is Atzmon’s racist filth:

“Throughout the centuries, Jewish bankers bought for themselves some real reputations of backers and financers of wars [2] and even one communist revolution [3]. Though rich Jews had been happily financing wars using their assets, Alan Greenspan, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve of the United States, found a far more sophisticated way to finance the wars perpetrated by his ideological brothers Libby and Wolfowitz. “

My but you are a nasty piece of work Harry.

Up until now, I had no idea who Ben Helfgott was.

I copied the list from Majority rights because of the D List Celebs and footballers on it and did not even make a Jewish connection.

But then again I am not obsessed with Jews the way you seem to be.

It might interest you to know that up until recently I displayed Support Israel Banners on my site until I changed my banner.

You might also be interested in this article I wrote which expresses my views on Jews and Israel.

http://isupporttheresistance.blogspot.com/2009/03/letter-to-british-jews.html

Come on Harry, tighten up your game. You make it too easy to reveal you a smoke and mirror man.

Also, say what you will about Paul ‘Green Arrow’ Morris, but at least he’s honest and open about his anti-semitism. I almost admire his integrity when he’s held up about closet anti-semites on the fashionable left. The one’s who’d have us believe they are pro-peace progressives.

Morris’s honesty means his sort will never be in a position to givern and that he’ll never get media attention.

Meanwhile the Loach gets any platform it wants.

Internationalist:

Up to your usual quality of comment?

David T has hardly been uncritical of Israel, nor has he attacked people merely for criticizing Israel, but rather what they criticize about Israel and how it’s expressed.

Criticisms leveled at Atzmon are not made in respect of his musical talents but of the noxious political opinions he offers. Atzmon himself, however, has divorced himself from Israel and Judaism in terms sufficiently extreme that there are few people outside of the PSM who would give him the time of day.

David T recently tried to defend Chomsky on a point, the exact one I can’t recall, save for reminding him of Chomsky’s advocacy for a Holocaust denier by the name of Faurrison, first denying the antisemetic nature of the writings and later on the pretext of free speech.

Chomsky is certainly a celebrated intellectual, but a vastly, vastly overrated one whose reputation has been built primarily on his criticisms of the US and Israel, but has made egregious statements about Cambodia and Afghanistan for two.

Nobody here bullies people for supporting the rights of Palestinians to an independent state with good governance and human rights enjoyed regardless of religious or sexual orientation. We just recognize that absent Israel, the place will devolve into Hamastan.
http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/06/an-independent-palestinian-state.php

Also, say what you will about Paul ‘Green Arrow’ Morris, but at least he’s honest and open about his anti-semitism. I almost admire his integrity when he’s held up about closet anti-semites on the fashionable left. The one’s who’d have us believe they are pro-peace progressives.

Morris’s honesty means his sort will never be in a position to govern and that he’ll never get media attention.

Meanwhile the Loach gets any platform it wants.

sorry – my last post was written before Morris’s risible attempt to pass off his antisemitism as copied and pasted from elsewhere

I’ll get me coat

The Other Ben:

This is a very feeble accusation. Just because somebody uses something off a website it doesn’t mean they agree with everything else on there.

The stuff he USED was anti-Semitic you idiot. Unless you think making a section pointing out Jewish signatories to a letter, calling them ‘Chosenites’, and dropping in Holocaust denial for good measure isn’t anti-Semitic.

As for not agreeing with everything else on there, if I ever linked approvingly to an article on a site full of anti-Semitic shit – I wouldn’t, but Morris is happy to – I’d give a very clear disclaimer. And, again, the article itself is anti-Semitic.

In terms of the BNP being pro-Jewish – yeah, right.

Why not just admit that you support the BNP? It’s pretty clear you do.

Hey, what Jobsworth has had the almighty cheek to put me into a moderation queue? Little upstart!

And Modernity as well in a moderation queue! It’s outrageous! Don’t you know who he is?

Green Arrow:

I copied the list from Majority rights because of the D List Celebs and footballers on it and did not even make a Jewish connection.

Ha ha ha ha! Didn’t make the Jewish connection when you read the words ‘Chosenites’ and ‘Big Jew’ in the same section? Didn’t make the connection when you linked to the original letter which referred to Helfgott as a Holocaust survivor and then to the MR shit which calls him a ‘typhoid survivor’? Yeah, of course. And I suppose while visiting Majority Rights you didn’t come across anything that might have made you ‘connect’ the site to anti-Semitism? – Like the ‘Jews’ links section on the home page, for example.

I’ve heard that you’re thick, so I presume this is going to be your excuse on this occasion, because you’re ‘pro-Israel’ (translation: you hate Muslims) so obviously wouldn’t have anything to do with anti-Semitism. Oh yeah, except for the anti-Semitic crap you posted on your blog today.

I look forward to a forthcoming post on your blog in which you admit you ‘accidentally’ posted anti-Semitic content and in which you condemn Majority Rights as an anti-Semitic hate site. *cough*

I have to say that it is quite sad very dishonest of Harry to single out that relatively humorous post whilst ignoring the many positive posts regarding Jews and especially Israel which have appeared on the Green Arrow blog.

However, I guess if you are desperate you will use anything.

Come on Harry, tighten up your game. You make it too easy to reveal you a smoke and mirror man.

Do you think this Green Arrow character is replying to something Harry wrote when he last posted here about two years ago?

They are not too bright these fascists are they?

Ah Edmond Standing, (or is that Edmund leaning a bit?) you used a similar attack on me because I linked to Newsnet14 despite the fact I had just posted an article supportive of Israel’s action in Gaza.

You have form when it comes to this

No Edmund, I did not make the connection with Ben whatever his name is. I do not have a Jewish Fixation like you and others.

I suspect you are one of those people who use the Jews as a weapon whenever you can.

I will not edit the article or apologise for posting it.

Looking forward to Sunday and seeing how many BNP people we will be sending to Brussels.

Suck it up Edmund. The BNP are now unstoppable.

In fact you wrote almost exactly the same article!!!
http://edmundstanding.blogspot.com/2008/12/bnp-blogger-cites-racist-and-anti.html

The BNP are now unstoppable.

Dare you to come back on Sunday.

Sarah, you beat me to it. Readers, meet Sarah Maid of Albion, another Green Arrow contributor. She also ‘has form when it comes to this’. Back in December, Sarah put a post on the Green Arrow blog linking to a site called ‘Newsnet14′ which describes itself as an alternative to ‘Zionist media mongers’.

Poor Sarah was shocked to discover that ‘14′ refers to the ‘14 words’ of neo-Nazi terrorist David Lane, shocked to find the content she linked to came from Tom Metzger’s ‘White Aryan Resistance’ site, shocked to find that the very article she quoted from also claims that pornography is ‘controlled by Jews!’ and would no doubt be even more shocked to discover that Newsnet14 is registered to a company called ‘Aryan Wear’, which sells ’skinhead boots, nazi boots, swastika boots, skinhead shirts, nazi shirts, white pride clothing’.

What a terrible accident. Happens to us all once in a while, though, eh? Only the other day I was looking for a site about Holocaust remembrance and accidentally linked to Stormfront, cos, y’know, it looked legit at the time.

What is this crap?

If you’ve joined the BNP, you’ve specifically joined a party which is – in the terms of its own constitution – a racist organisation.

If you were merely a patriotic sort who thought that the mainstream parties weren’t for you, you’d join an outfit like the English Democrats, who appear to have people from a variety of cultural backgrounds running in this election.

But the BNP is different. It is the only party that is explicitly and proudly racist.

I don’t care whether or not you’re nice to Jews this week. Who cares? There’s more to this world than “are these people pleasant to Jews”, FFS!!

Well said DavidT and it’s not just Jews that come in for disgusting attempts at ‘humour’ as outlined in the post. The whole list is one example of bigotry after another.

Edmund Standing: “Why not just admit that you support the BNP? It’s pretty clear you do.”

I’ve never been asked, so why would I be ‘admitting’ anything?

I certainly support the BNP on it’s main immigration policy. On other issues I disagree though. I support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I have voted for Tony Blair because of his support for that. The BNP, however, are against those wars. And I also think some of their policies are too socialist.

I do think that something needs to be done about immigration, and soon, before it turns into a bigger problem, so I would vote for the BNP to send that message to the government.

You should find a non-explicitly racist party with a policy on immigration you favour.

Do you really want to vote for the BNP, who would like to send “back” your British friends and colleagues, just because of the colour of their skin?

Or who think that there is something intrinsically wrong with a child whose parent have different ethnicities?!

was it just me, or did anybody else notice that internationalist made an extremely accurate Livingston reformulation.

Edmond Sweetheart, I will tell you exactly why I quoted from NewsNet14, back in March 2008 they republished one of my articles
http://www.newsnet14.com/2008/03/when-the-american-dream-becomes-a-nightmare-by-sarah-maid-of-albion/
I didn’t ask them to but I had only started blogging back then I felt quite flattered.

Hence, when I saw that they had a story about the censorship of YouTube I linked to it. Until you made your post I thought they were just a right wing American news site. I had no idea they were anti Semitic, neither of those articles were. I did not spend as long reading there as you obviously did!!

They have republished further articles from my blog, such as this one,
http://www.newsnet14.com/2009/05/the-guilt-of-the-silent/ once again I never asked them to and once again it is not an anti-Semitic article.

The question is, why is an active BNP member and speaker happy to uncritically reproduce material from such a website, and why is he incapable of seeing anti-Semitism when it stares him in the face?

I said it at another blog but I think it’s a good opertunity to say it here: That matirial is NOT antisemitism. That’s just how Facists and Neo-Nazies say hellow ;)

Actually, I looked up those “14 words” after you mentioned them back in December, they are: “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.”. This you describe as “hate speech” but if you substitute “black children”, “Muslim Children” or even “Chines Children” they wouldn’t be.

Hence one has to question who is doing the hating, the person who wrote the words, or the person who decided they constituted “Hate speech”

David T, they don’t want to send all non-white British people away, they just want to give those who don’t really like Britain the chance to somewhere they do like. And they fully accepted Simone Clarke, the ballerina, as a member, although she has a mixed race child. So it’s not so simple as you make out. They are not so conveniently extreme.

Having said that, the recent talk about trying Blair for war crimes is making me think twice. I’ve always hated anti-war lefties, and if they’re going to act like that then I’m put off voting for them. I might not bother voting for anyone tomorrow. They all disappoint me in some way.

Yeah, but at the end of the day, there are two sorts of people who end up supporting the BNP

1. Hardcore racists, who really think that there is something wrong with a child whose parents have different amount of melanin in their skins, and want to do something about it politically.

2. People who haven’t yet realised that this is what the BNP stands for.

white power complexes, holocaust denial, Hitler worship, etc those hardcore BNPers are much of a muchness.

Funny video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRqTZbO82v0&feature=player_embedded

Almost as funny as BNP supporters protesting that just because they support a party that was set-up by a madman who liked to dress up in Nazi uniforms, is led by a Holocaust denier, and is full of some of the crankiest most anti-semitic fucks in the country, their personal racist prejudices does not necessarily extend to Jew-hatred.

The BNP are now unstoppable

Hah, despite a tired and collapsing government, a political class that has lost all credibility due to the expenses scandal, an economic crisis, and elements of the mainstream media happy to blame a variety of problems on “the immigrants”, “the Muslims”, etc, you bunch of Hitler-fanciers are barely registering in the opinion polls and can only realistically expect to win one MEP. It’s hardly a blitzkrieg.

Britain has amongst the highest number of mixed-race relationships in the world. Racist attitudes are far less common here than in other countries. People increasingly work and socialise with people from different ethnic backgrounds and get on fine. Any integration problems can be sorted out over time and with effort, as history teaches us they always have been. Yes, there are unfortunately some idiots and fellow fash ideologues who will vote for you tomorrow, but ultimately the vast majority of the British people are a decent bunch and you won’t be allowed to get anywhere near a position of serious power.

Happy days, Gert declares he has given up posting here, and now that little fucker Irie is banned. To on David, take out Internationalist and make it a hat trick!

“white power complexes, holocaust denial, Hitler worship, etc those hardcore BNPers are much of a muchness.”

None of those exist anywhere in the BNP or outside your imagination

And they fully accepted Simone Clarke, the ballerina, as a member, although she has a mixed race child. So it’s not so simple as you make out. They are not so conveniently extreme.

Are you for real? They accepted Simone Clarke as a member because Richard Barnbrook was desparate for a girlfriend and the party was similarly desparate for any sort of “celebrity” endorsement. The BNP constitution is unequivocal about race and integration and the hatred of “race-mixing” can be easily found from a 2 minute internet search. Simone Clarke is not the brightest toutou in the ballet company.

None of those exist anywhere in the BNP or outside your imagination

Oh come on!

You’ve even got senior members wot interfere with vuh kiddies.

‘the cordon sanitaire’ is the problem, they become a ‘real’ party if they get MEP’s.
Look how racist shits like RESPECT and StWC are treated with respect, rather than contempt, on the basis of numbers and parliamentary representation.

that relatively humorous post: Yes, Ben Helfgott typhoid survivor, ha bloody ha.

Who d’you think you’re kidding, Sarah Davies.

Von Juntz
“Sarah. Do you take it up the tail pipe? I hear most Nazi chicks do.
I, for one, would like to know.”

What a delightful example of the liberal left you are Von, I suspect that you are are more familiar with tail pipes than I, it is, after all that is where you keep your head.

har har

I deleted that comment. There is no shame in this sort of thing, but still…

“that relatively humorous post: Yes, Ben Helfgott typhoid survivor, ha bloody ha.

Who d’you think you’re kidding, Sarah Davies.”

The trouble is amie, you know that means “Holocaust survivor”, it is not an expression I have ever heard used in that context before, and I doubt GA has either

David T “Oh come on! You’ve even got senior members wot interfere with vuh kiddies.”

I think you are thinking of UKIP there (and possibly the Lib Dems) … and Labour actually

Tories too, but I forget his name

Answer the bloody question luv. I’ve my lad in my hand here.

The tone of this website has gone right down the drain.

Are we seriously going to spend the rest of this evening discussing Nazism and anal sex?

There is a serious point here. Nazism, as PJ O’Rourke observed, is the only political movement ever regularly to appear as a theme in pornography. Nobody ever fantasises about being ravished by a liberal.

I do seriously wonder whether the essence of far right politics isn’t tied in with role play and sadism. You know the stuff.

No shame in that. But just best to keep it in the bedroom.

Has that streak of sputum on the toilet rim of huamnity, TheWhiney, been banned?

Von Juntz “I’ve my lad in my hand here.”

You didn’t need to tell us that Von, we had already guessed

So Sarah:-

Von Juntz is a piece of rhyming slang & I wish David T would delete him.

But, quoting from the BNP Constitution, are you and have you always been a member of one of these folk communities?

The Anglo-Saxon
Celtic Scottish
Scots Northern Irish
Celtic Welsh
Celtic Irish
Celtic Cornish
Celtic Norse
Anglo-Saxon Norse
Anglo-Saxon-Indigenous European

I mean, have you had a careful check through the family tree to see that there isn’t a stray Jew or Indian there somewhere? Cos if there is that’s you, out of the party.

“I’ve my lad in my hand here.”

A tiny dainty wee hand that keeps “the lad” completely concealed.

I think it is quite amusing that you accuse the BNP of being “Nazis” when you are all supporters of an establishment which is far closer to that description. It is you that believe the propaganda, it is you support the belief in thought crimes, it is you who oppose democracy and free speech, and when it comes to really hating, there are few who can match you at that.

Oh, dear, here’s someone who believes totalitarian control of language or expression is the same as totalitarian dictatorships.

David, you are more or less correct. In support of your Nazism and pornography/exploitation thesis I list:
Salon Kitty
Ilsa, She-Wolf of the SS
The Gestapo’s Last Orgy (not as interesting as it sounds)
SS Experiment Camp / Love Camp (ditto)
… and of course The Night Porter (but that’s high art)

I bet Sarah has all of these. She probably likes Salo too (Italian fascists this time)!

It is you that believe the propaganda, it is you support the belief in thought crimes, it is you who oppose democracy and free speech

Err, yes, keep on making up crap about other people.

It won’t change the fact you’re a racist.

I don’t thinkl Jews are banned from joining the BNP are they? I would certainly welcome them, and gays as well, because both groups would be safer there than in the multi cultural society which you support. Don’t forget that the worst anti Semites are Muslims and most gay bashers are black (albeit your propaganda tends to ignore those uncomfortable facts)

BNPers are a bit slow as well as thick:

Holocaust denial from the BNP leader:

“On the Holocaust

Between 1995 and 1997, Nick Griffin edited ‘The Rune’. Griffin referred to the Holocaust as a “Holohoax”.

In 1998 Nick Griffin said, “I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that 6 million Jews were gassed and cremated and turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also also once held that the Earth was flat… I have reached the conclusion that the “extermination” tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria.” “

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/programmes/2001/bnp_special/the_leader/beliefs.stm

The main reason for the BNP being called “Nazi” is that they are a specifically racist party who want this country to be ethnically cleansed of non-whites.

“Racist” I don’t mind, you can call me your multi purpose “r” word as much as you like, it is a device designed to intimidate and bully and suppress opposition. To you way of thinking it is impossible to avoid being a “racist” unless you but into the liberal establishment, which I don’t.

What I objected to was being called an anti-Semite because I am not one

“Racist” I don’t mind

If the jackboot fits…

Modernity, have I missed something, are we still in 1997 or was that twelve years ago. Don’t forget that many in the Labour party were once members of the Communist party, John Reid for instance.

Even if that but of establishment propaganda were true, it didn’t even happen in this Century

more from the nutbars in the BNP:

“Hatred of Jews has always been the backbone of nazi ideas. The BNP is no different. But antisemitism is not a vote winner. It reminds people of Hitler and the Holocaust. The BNP wishes to distance itself from the images of swastikas and concentration camps. Despite this, they still believesthat there is a Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world.

In Nick Griffin’s pamphlet Who are the Mindbenders Jewish names are listed as proof that they control the media.

Mindbenders claims that, “The mass media in Britain today have managed to implant into many people’s minds the idea that it is ‘anti-Semitic’ even to acknowledge that members of the Jewish community play a large part in controlling our news”.

Jews are accused of “providing us with an endless diet of pro-multiracial, pro-homosexual, anti-British trash”.

Who are the Mindbenders? has a sinister history:

It follows the lead of The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, the notorious 19th century tsarist forgery that purports to be the minutes of a meeting of Jews documenting their plans to control the whole world.

Mindbenders is based on Who Rules America?, written by Dr William Pierce, who before his death last year was one of the world’s foremost neo-nazis and a self confessed ally of Nick Griffin.

Pierce authored the notorious Turner Diaries, which inspired the Oklahoma bombing, and was the leader of the National Alliance, a group described by the US Anti-Defamation League as one of the most dangerous neo-nazi groups in the world. Griffin’s booklet is a carbon copy of Pierce’s.

In Spearhead in 1996, Griffin spoke of “the controllers of Hollywood, almost entirely Jewish”, and has written that: “Some ‘anti-Semitism’ may be provoked by the actions of certain Jews themselves and thereby have a rational basis”. Now he is trying to distance himself from the label of antisemitism, and has toned down his views in public. Where he once spoke of “Jewish influence”, he now speaks of “Zionist influence”, showing that it is his language not his beliefs that have changed.”

http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/uncovered/pg08.htm

Don’t forget that many in the Labour party were once members of the Communist party

Many, indeed all, members of the BNP are currently members of a fascist political party.

“Racist” I don’t mind

“If the jackboot fits…”

You see you are so brainwashed you could not comprehend what I was saying!

I have to go to bed, its been fun talking to to you (albeit totally pointless)

So, if we don’t use the “r” word what word would you use to describe a party whose policy is to select a country’s citizens by their race and try to deport them?

Modernity sweetie

That’s called propaganda, its political stuff,and mostly made up (the clue is that it comes from a pressure group called “Stop the BNP”) you shouldn’t believe everything you read

Well that wouldn’t be the BNP KB, they are not proposing deportation.

Trick answer – they, no, you are proposing ‘incentives’ to leave. Why anyone would think that someone whose grandparents may have been born in this country would not be fully British begins with R. Just as why any Jew would wish to join a party which a thick seam running through it as represented by this title post, and whose leader believes it’s worth his while sucking up to the Israeli media because of how secretly powerful it is, begins with M.

Well that wouldn’t be the BNP KB, they are not proposing deportation.

Yeah, and I’m a devout Muslim…..

Hiya lefty scumbags and shemales,

I thought you ladies might find this article enlightening for you.

Now play nice.

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2009/05/israel-lobby-commits-maje-blunder-in.html

Amazing stuff is happening in France. It all began with a relatively well-known French-Cameroonian comedian, Dieudonné M’bala M’bala was invited to participate on a TV show on the channel France 3. The show also featured a Maghrebian artist and Dieudonne decided to impersonate an extremist Israeli settled infuriated by the presence of an Arab on a French show (for those of you who understand French, you can see an excerpt of his appearance that day here).

Dieudonne who, in the past, had always enjoyed ridiculing pretty much every segment of French society clearly had never expected the hysterical uproar that his humor would trigger that day: the huge constellation of French Zionists organizations lead by the notorious CRIF (“Representative Committee of Jewish organization in France” – the French version of AIPAC) immediately attacked Dieudonne, suing him for racists comments and suing him for “anti-Semitism” (a criminal offense in France). This was hardly the first time that the French Zionist mob had decided to crush an outspoken critic of its role in French politics or its unconditional support for the last racist state on the planet: Israel. But this time, the Ziomob miscalculated, badly.

You support a racist party and dont mind being called racist, but are strangely reluctant to accept that the BNP are racist, despite their racist policies and members?

Modernity

I didn’t realise that not only do they disbar celtic-anglo saxon norse folk but Normans are prohibited too.

So I guess a BNP Britain would remove the aristocracy as well it seems as excluding the Channel Islands from its new nation (I suppose noone has told them that the native language of the channel Islands is still Norman French or Anglo-Norman).

They must hate garlic as well as anyone who eats it.

more for BNP dim wits:

“Holocaust Denial

Griffin has never withdrawn his views on the Holocaust that landed him with a suspended prison sentence in 1998. His publication The Rune, which denied that the Holocaust ever took place, resulted in a conviction for inciting racial hatred under the Public Order Act. So extreme were Griffin’s beliefs that he attacked David Irving, the leading British Holocaust denier, for daring to admit that some people might have died in the Holocaust, Griffin wrote: “True revisionists will not be fooled by this new twist to the sorry tale of the Hoax of the Twentieth Century”.

Defaming the memory of British forces who fought the Nazis, he added, “Back in the 1960s the Jews quietly shifted the alleged sites of the mass gassings from the no longer believable German camps such as Dachau and Belsen to the sites in Communist Poland such as Auschwitz and Treblinka. Now that the very idea of Zyklon-B extermination has been exposed as unscientific nonsense, they are once and again re-writing bogus history, playing down gas chambers and talking instead of ‘hundreds of hitherto unknown sites in the East where more than a million Jews were exterminated by shooting”.

Griffin sees the Holocaust as a lie invented by Jews to make money: “As your Hollywood friend is fond of remarking, (provided he is safely in select company) ‘there’s no business like Shoah business”.

When the former MP Alex Carlisle reported Griffin for inciting racial hatred and Holocaust denial, Griffin fumed: “This bloody Jew, our local MP who organised the raid whose only claim to fame is that two of his parents died in the Holocaust”

Star witness as Harrow Crown Court on Griffin’s behalf was Robert Faurisson, the famous French Holocaust denier.

In the 1990s the BNP hosted a number of revisionism seminars that were addressed by some of the world’s most infamous Holocaust deniers. They included David Irving. “

http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/uncovered/pg08.htm

* Nick Griffin, speaking to Wales on Sunday, 1996: “All black people will be repatriated, even if they were born here … We must preserve the white race, because it has been responsible for all the good things in civilisation”.

If a party ever had enough power to go around doing racial profiles on citizens and then offering to “repatriate” them they would no doubt skip that silly formality and get straight to expulsion.

So you approve of racial profiling of British citizens with the intention of chucking them out of the country, do you?

“Don’t forget that the worst anti Semites are Muslims and most gay bashers are black (albeit your propaganda tends to ignore those uncomfortable facts)”

Those are not facts, Sarah. Do you know what facts are, Sarah, sweetie? You see, this it’s so hard for intelligent people to take your party seriously. Making ridiculous statements like that and then claiming that they’re facts is something only thickos do, Sarah, sweetie.

Here, Lee, as you have an LLB (Hons), could you tell me if it were legal to use the grand-parents of an Italian photographer on the leaflet which came through my door today? There didn’t seem to be a piccie of an ex-squaddie who never would vote for you in a million years.

The moderation queue system here seems to be governed by some computer language rule that sets the number of links and perhaps the number of words any one comment can contain and then sorts those comments into some hidden away stash either offline or on a privileged access web page until somebody with admin privileges at HP checks the comments accumulated by the system and types something to release the comments so that they appear on this thread.

Surely HP’s admins know someone with the computer skills to alter the moderation queue script, say to a much more liberal interpretation of where the set point should be for number of links and amount of text in any individual comment allowed to appear in the thread immediately upon submission.

Changing the subject…

I have more than once entertained the thought that the entire history of repulsive and sometimes both repulsive and stupid characters who have over the years participated in these comment threads were consciously or unconsciously helping to market HP.

Wrt the sudden and apparently final collapse of Andrew Ireson’s market share on HP comment threads as The Irie, a geology department clown who when addressing people who take antisemitism seriously, actually imagines he’s covering his ass – although as anyone but him and his ilk can see, it may as well be layers of transparent plastic wrap – with the assumption of a one-trick-pony pose of insufferably thick and unforgivable dense contrarianism, so that he can be seen as standing up and being counted as a defender of antisemitic speech coming from anywhere on the political or antizionist left, I was a tad surprised, not by Ireson of all people accusing David T of all people, of encouraging antisemitism on behalf of a murky political agenda, but surprised by his banning, simply for doing what Ireson always does anyways, which is to defend repulsive ideas that are intellectually indefensible and depraved, as long as they hail from any stream, or puddle on the political left and/or from anywhere in the antizionist camp.

The only thing I can see different in his banning from HP on this thread and most of the rest of his past contributions to HP that didn’t earn him a pink slip is that here his depraved estimation of what he considers stupid, or racist in others (which is as a rule the opposite of the truth) was directed at DavidT and not at some non HP commenter.

If Ireson reads this comment, I want to take this opportunity to wish him and the HP comment thread giants upon whose shoulders he stood on to carry the torch of depraved and malicious stupidity forward, Jack the Bear, Sonic, Callum, Brendan, Yugoslav, Chris Voidis, Benjamin Mackie, Flying Rodent, blah, blah, blah, Alberto the Hasbara Buster, Gert, Gilad Atzmon and Neil Clark sockpuppets, Islamaphobia Watch Bob, Richard Seymour’s staff, continuously dull, ineffective and meaningless lives.

They must hate garlic as well as anyone who eats it.

That’s me fucked totally then.

Oh, I’d also not meet their race criteria either for remaining in the UK (sorry, England). Something to do with my eyes being too close together or something. So I’m fucked either way by the BNP.

I am still not daring to believe this is true, but has TheWhiney been banned?

“Anti-Semitism” is nothing but incantatory babble. Why ought European Man accept his slouch toward oblivion? Because he alone is the demon-seed of “anti-Semitism”? LOL! It does sound rather foolish, and well, GENOCIALIST when one actually comes out and says it. No? You anti-White genocidalist freaks deserve every bit of scorn you heap upon those of us who love our people.

Sarah Davies, Green Arrow

Filthy hosts for Hyperborean spawn, be gone with your impotent sickening cross and your drag Queen god/ess Odin.

The ancient ones arise they are calling for your blood.

Be gone by Samhain, or you offer yourselves as the three fold sacrifice.

You will see your entrails pulled freshly forth to divine the coming again of the song of stone.

Your offering will be taken thrice, drowning, hanging and immolation.

Sorry you don’t get to choose but youve got to agree it sure beats horoscopes for artistry and pain.

Be gone spawn food.

Wardytron

You see I don’t see what there is not to like about the sim tran in the Euro parliament.

The interpreters are up in gallerys of sound proofed boxes like puppets on speed.

They get very animated and it is always amusing to switch to an incomprehensible language and watch a French interpreter throwing their arms about.

Its like a badly dubbed B movie.

Though some of the Interpreters are marvelous and read up on the debates of the day and get in role and everything.

I once attended a debate on AIDS where a hippy German from a whore’s collective with a Kool Berliner accent was coming across all home counties, the voice emanating from the twin set puppet saying

‘ and so…so ..we don’t want to be rounded up and fucking tested for brucelossis just so that men can be free to fuck without rubbers’

At this point people cheered and jeered some banged tables and the French just snapped their fingers in irritation. I stood up and applauded the interpreter.

Bloody marvelous. True it is more often debates about how much meat must a Euro hamburger contain.

People should vote Green just because they are the ones who bring the whore’s collectives on bicycles into the chamber.

They are guaranteed to have some Euro fun.

Nick Griffin will be trash by even Eurotrash standards and he will get all embarassed and flustered in a restaurant when he can’t find the little plate to put his bread roll on.

“Hiya lefty scumbags and shemales”

Now we know of what Lee Barnes dreams at night.

Every native Brit who is tired of their people being genocided (yes, also a verb) should vote for the BNP. But wait, “Anti-Semitism!” LOL! Sticks and stones. How much longer do you clowns HONESTLY think you can keep up this pathetic charade?

Jack the Bear, Sonic, Callum, Brendan, Yugoslav, Chris Voidis, Benjamin Mackie, Flying Rodent, blah, blah, blah, Alberto the Hasbara Buster, Gert, Gilad Atzmon and Neil Clark sockpuppets, Islamaphobia Watch Bob, Richard Seymour’s staff

Impressive memory Lbnaz. I can’t even remember Jack the Bear’s “real” name.

You must be forgetting someone though.

Jack the Bear, Sonic, Callum, Brendan, Yugoslav, Chris Voidis, Benjamin Mackie, Flying Rodent, blah, blah, blah, Alberto the Hasbara Buster, Gert, Gilad Atzmon and Neil Clark sockpuppets, Islamaphobia Watch Bob, Richard Seymour’s staff

Impressive memory Lbnaz. I can’t even remember Jack the Bear’s “real” name.

Who votes for the BNP?

What I mean by that is, what percentage of people who vote for them are out-and-out racists, and what percentage are ‘protest’ voters?

BNP policy has a shop/department store quality. Tories/Labour have big department stores (like Selfridges) where they can put lots of tempting offers in various and many shop displays.

BNP are your corner “Everything for £1″ shop where they only have one display window. Ever few years it changes. It used to be Jews in the window, then Blacks, now its Asian alternating with Islam – but always with a British Flag montage showing white children looking into the new dawn.

The point is that everything is for sale but its not all in the window. Its clearly on the shelves inside.

In order to have the greatest appeal the shop window has what they think the market wants.

Lee Barnes was having a snide pop at Brett

BNP is a party full of Losers who have an average of at least 10 points deficit in IQ compared to the general population and are thus mostly losers. They buy into theories that demonise others others for their shortcomings and buy into theories of Jewish control, a lost golden age and racial purity and superiority.

Good work focusing on them in front of upcoming elections. It is getting under their skin too hence the appearance of bovver boy Barnes.

Genocide me Captainchaos, genocide me!

Hey, thank you Von Juntz, you’ve really helped me decide who to vote for today; I’ve remembered how much I hate lying lefty ‘anti-fascist’ scumbags like you, and how sickened you’ll be if the BNP do well. Never will a vote have felt so good.

Would somebody please explain to me in what way all those who emerged from the concentration camps in the east were not survivors of malnutrition and disease, of which the biggest killer was typhoid?

No one survived gassing, did they?

David T

The Cordon sanitaire only works if you maintain it rigorously. I have never seen so much evil racist filth infecting HP.

I don’t read white supremacist websites to be scandelighted I know what they are.

I don’t invite them into my living room to debate, but if you talk about them too much they will be at the door knocking and saying well if you are going to talk about me you had better let me in.

My antibacterial spray is just a reiteration of the banal ridicule of the racialist theories they hold.

Be gone Hyperborean spawn food!

(I am doing my one man version of trying to create a cordon Sanitaire to anti-semitism posing as anti-racism too, which is why I write ‘the anti-semite and racist Carol Churchill’.

I walked out of a dinner party recently saying ‘I will not sit and listen to this racist anti-semitic crap’. It was hard there were a couple of good friends there.

They thought I was being mad or exagerating until some others there said things along the lines of;

‘I think he’s over sensitive, biased, because , he is some kind of Zionist…’does he have Israeli relatives’

One friend called me after and said ‘now I get it but if you hadn’t walked out and they exposed themselves so obviously, I would have given them the benefit of the doubt that their views were purely political. I didn’t even say you weren’t Jewish, why enter into that with them. I left as soon as I could.

The EU definition of racism includes ‘national origins or nation or national group’.

My presumption now is ‘OK I accept that criticism of Israel is not necessarily anti-semitic but if you are prepared to hold all (Jewish) members of the state as collectively culpable and collectively targettable ( boycotts etc) then I presume you to be anti-semitic and the Cordon Sanitaire goes up.

This lazy middle class salon talk of zionazism being a product of shallow fashion and the aping of opinion formers can best be dealt with by discrediting the opinion formers, showing how desperately unool they really are, and by slapping the wrists and wagging fingers at the salon chatterati’.

“No one survived gassing, did they?”

There are eye witness accounts from people who did survive the gas chambers, actually. It’s such a shame you’re all so ignorant. Another reason why intelligent people find it difficult to take the BNP seriously.

Now, try not to get too excited by reading this wont you, Guessedworker:

Montreal Gazette:
August 5, 1993
Surviving the horror

“As an 11 year-old boy held captive at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II, Moshe Peer was sent to the gas chamber at least six times. Each time he survived, watching with horror as many of the women and children gassed with him collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn’t know how he was able to survive. “Maybe children resist better, I don’t know,” he said in an interview last week.”

bissli
4 June 2009, 10:38 am

“No one survived gassing, did they?”

“There are eye witness accounts from people who did survive the gas chambers, actually. It’s such a shame you’re all so ignorant. Another reason why intelligent people find it difficult to take the BNP seriously.”

“Now, try not to get too excited by reading this wont you, Guessedworker:”

Montreal Gazette:
August 5, 1993
Surviving the horror

“As an 11 year-old boy held captive at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II, Moshe Peer was sent to the gas chamber at least six times. Each time he survived, watching with horror as many of the women and children gassed with him collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn’t know how he was able to survive. “Maybe children resist better, I don’t know,” he said in an interview last week.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/37/a3953937.shtml
Unlike other camps such as Auschwitz, Belsen had no gas chambers to kill the prisoners as it was originally used as a prisoner-of-war camp for French and Belgian captives.

That’s the BBC reporting.

bissli
4 June 2009, 10:38 am

“No one survived gassing, did they?”

“There are eye witness accounts from people who did survive the gas chambers, actually. It’s such a shame you’re all so ignorant. Another reason why intelligent people find it difficult to take the BNP seriously.”

“Now, try not to get too excited by reading this wont you, Guessedworker:”

Montreal Gazette:
August 5, 1993
Surviving the horror

“As an 11 year-old boy held captive at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II, Moshe Peer was sent to the gas chamber at least six times. Each time he survived, watching with horror as many of the women and children gassed with him collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn’t know how he was able to survive. “Maybe children resist better, I don’t know,” he said in an interview last week.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/37/a3953937.shtml
Unlike other camps such as Auschwitz, Belsen had no gas chambers to kill the prisoners as it was originally used as a prisoner-of-war camp for French and Belgian captives.

That’s the BBC reporting.

bissli,

The problem with the long catalogue of eye-witness accounts is that much of it has not withstood scrutiny. If you read the revisionists at all you would know that there are many inconvenient aspects of eye-witness accounts.

To what extent that compromises the value of eye-witness accounts is never debated. Instead, the response from Jewish interest groups has been to dehumanise the scrutineers, including engineering their imprisonment. We are meant to see these mostly very brave people as “evil anti-semites”. That, together with the gargantuan effort Jews have made since the mid-1970s to exceptionalise Jewish suffering in the camps, has rendered belief in “The Holocaust” a near religious duty for all of us.

I reject that. I’m not religious, and I don’t like being told what to believe. Actually, I’m old enough to remember back before the term “Holocaust” had another meaning, and well before the big-media exploitation began. I am in favour of separating history from media and political exploitation. I am in favour of freedom of enquiry and historical rigour. I want to know where the revisionists have a point and where they don’t, and I want to see that reflected in the official treatment of WW2 history.

Most of all, I want the young to be released from the (truly evil, in my view) implication that every European is potentially an irrational hater of Jews who will launch a genocide at any moment – for this is the message of all the media fetishization of “The Holocaust”, of the one-sided concentration on it in educational curricula, of the legal overkill. It is a disgrace.

By the way, did Mr Helfgott survive gas or manutrition and disease?

By the way, did Mr Helfgott survive gas or manutrition and disease? You are being disingenuous. In addition to disease, as you well know, the camp survivors survived the countless selections of people sent to the gas chambers, as well as selection for medical experiments, and the random, but deliberate deaths by beating, shooting and the like.

Bissli

A quick site search reveals that you are a regular here.

For a moment I thought I might have been had by one of Guessedworkers friends.

Can someone explain this strange anomaly of how someone survived gas chambers in a camp where even the BBC say there were no gas chambers?

The only book I’ve read on the Holocaust is The Holocaust Industry. No doubt many people here have read it. It doesn’t go into what did or didn’t happen apart from Norman Finkelstein saying his mother (a concentration camp survivor) was fond of quoting Henry Ford and saying “history is bunk”.

Maybe I should start looking into this.

I really hate being bullshitted.

amie,

Give me the numbers. How many died from which cause? Because until you do that, until you state how many died of malnutrition and disease, you remain firmly in the camp of the goy-exploiters.

To disassociate yourself from goy-exploitation you must acknowledge that the Industry (eg, The Reader was the 252nd film of its kind … 252, and how many make money!) is engaged in more than just recording history. It is controlling thought, with all the dangers for inflation that that entails.

Understand that the exploitation issue is not the same as the history issue. I do not know the history of the camps. I do know that the Hollywood schlock is fiction, and its effect, along with that of the museums and the enslavement of the political, juridical and media elites, is profoundly unhealthy and unjust to Europe’s children.

I am the floating voter type.

Someone should be trying to convince me either way.

The silence is f*cking deafening.

Deafening silence from one side of this argument, that is.

Yep Shmuel, I’ve forgotten some and of course there are always more to add, as the cholagogic BNP claqueurs on this thread so readily demonstrate. I suspect they don’t fully recognize the ramifications of posting here, which in the final analysis only adds to the total number of comments for a thread thereby increasing HP’s market position as a popular and heavily read political blog.

And as for this: Can someone explain this strange anomaly of how someone survived gas chambers in a camp where even the BBC say there were no gas chambers?

Did it occur to you that Moshe Peer might have been sent from Bergen Belsen to gas chambers at a site other than Bergen Belson six times and then returned to Bergen Belsen because of Nazi bureaucratic protocols when he wasn’t eliminated? Nowhere in the citation from the Montreal Gazette article does it state that there were gas chamber facilities at Bergen Belsen. So sorry, no anomaly and no “deafening silence”, just lazy reading comprehension on your part.

“The only book I’ve read on the Holocaust is The Holocaust Industry.”

Well, at least you admit your ignorance.

Lbnaz

“Did it occur to you that Moshe Peer might have been sent from Bergen Belsen to gas chambers at a site other than Bergen Belson six times and then returned to Bergen Belsen because of Nazi bureaucratic protocols when he wasn’t eliminated?”

Right. This is (mostly) the famously efficient Germans we are mostly talking about here.

Hmmnnn…

bissli

Hahaha

What were you expecting? Me to claim I had a PhD in the subject?

Get this: I am not in the BNP, I am not in any political party or movement.

I am Joe Public.

Gilad Atzmon is a talented musician, a native of Palestine who has had the courage to stand up to Israeli chauvinism, in return for which he has been showered with abuse.

He doesn’t “deny” the Holocaust, he points out the way in which it has been abused by Israeli nationalists/Jewish racial supremacists. He may go over the top now and again but that is to be expected from an artist.

Bottom line is that he won’t be intimidated by tribalists. That includes pro-Palestinian nationalists as well as Zionists.

“What were you expecting? Me to claim I had a PhD in the subject?

Not at all, but really, the only people who would openly admit to only having read “The Holocaust Industry” are most likely fruitloops.

“Get this: I am not in the BNP, I am not in any political party or movement.

I am Joe Public.”

Yeah, whatever you say.

>>> Not at all, but really, the only people who would openly admit to only having read “The Holocaust Industry” are most likely fruitloops.

Nowhere near as loopy as the fruitloop chauvinists and racial supremacists who take pride in NOT having read it.

bissli

“Not at all, but really, the only people who would openly admit to only having read “The Holocaust Industry” are most likely fruitloops.”

Hahaha

Is that the best you can do?

I’ve done some checking. According to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazi-German_concentration_camps
All the extermination camps were in Poland, Belarus, Ukraine and Croatia.

A rough distance (according to Google Earth) from Bergen Belson to the Polish border, let alone to wherever these camps were located is about 180 miles.

So the famously efficient Germans transported this kid 6 times a distance over 180 miles, to gas him when they could have just shot him, or strangled him. The possibilities are endless.

This is when all their railways were being shot up by allied planes and they probably had more urgent stuff to carry on them.

I’m sorry but this blokes story doesn’t stack up to me.

Attila, I’m not interested in your Holocaust denying guff. Go and jack off to some more Norman Finkelstein.

A rough distance (according to Google Earth) from Bergen Belson to the Polish border, let alone to wherever these camps were located is about 180 miles.

There were regular transports from Belsen to Auschwitz and vice versa throughout the war (Anne Frank and her sister Margot were transferred to Bergen-Belsen from Auschwitz in October 1944 for instance.)

It really is a bit weak to be chucking out holocaust revisionism in the face of easily checkable facts.

In addition although Belsen was not an extermination camp:

there were 200 prisoners in the Häftlingslager who were murdered by an injection of Phenol, administered by Karl Rothe, who had been appointed as “Head Nurse” in the sick camp by the SS. Rothe injected the prisoners on the orders of the SS who characterized these murders as “mercy killing”

Attila, the extermination of the Jews did take place, there is no doubt about it.

The Allies could have stopped it, but they chose to bomb ordinary Germans instead. Go figure. The safest job in the Third Reich was driving trains to Auschwitz. It was the one target our beloved democracies never bombed. By contrast, virtually every working class district of every German city was flattened.

What is sickening is the way this tragedy has been exploited by today’s racial supremacists. This is Finkelstein’s point, not denial.

“the famously efficient Germans”

Germans aren’t efficient but the German bureaucracy was gründlich – thorough – both before and during the Nazi era. The extermination of the Jews (and others) was recorded in detail. It certainly happened.

However we should not forget that 40 million people were killed in the wars in Europe 1939-1945, not six million.

Graham and Internationalist.

As I said, I am Joe Public. I don’t know what happened or didn’t happen. I haven’t spent any time looking into it. But I have picked up some interesting bits and pieces here and there which do make you think.

I doubt very much that I am the only one.

Internationalist

“However we should not forget that 40 million people were killed in the wars in Europe 1939-1945, not six million.”

Abso-f*cking-lutely mate.

Attila- I haven’t spent any time looking into it. But I have picked up some interesting bits and pieces here and there which do make you think.

Thank you for outing yourself as one of the ” jus sayin.. tendency. No need to waste any time engaging with you then.

And similarly “Give me the numbers” Gastarbeider you can go fuck yourself- (I very seldom descend to this level except when it is warranted) I don’t have to give you anything. There are screeds of reputable sources available if you were in good faith. Your faith is of the most toxic variety.

Right. This is (mostly) the famously efficient Germans we are mostly talking about here.

I’m sorry but this blokes story doesn’t stack up to me.

It would have been preferable for you, whether or not you think you’re Joe Public, to have checked your assumptions with the historical record before deciding whether or not it was feasable that a boy could have been sent from Bergen Belsen to a death camp and returned six times.

The bureaucratic process at all Nazi death and extermination camp pivoted on the concept of Selektion, that is the assignment of which prisoner would be exterminated and which would be worked until death or extermination. Auschwitz-Birkenau for example had two centres of authority empowered by the Reich to make a Selektion with respect to any given prisoner.

Please take a moment to carefully consider the testimony from the Belsen Trial of Josef Kramer, Kommandant of Birkenau, deciding whether or not it was feasible that an eleven year old boy could have been seen fit by one centre of Selektion authority (say the Kommandant of Auschwitz 1, who was also the overall Kommandant of the camp according to Kramer’s testimony) for one track, say the gas and crematoria extermination track and contradicted by a second centre of authority, (say Auschwitz Birkenau Medical Authorities) who wanted the boy sent on a slave labour track for the time being and his extermination postponed and left undetermined unless and until until a subsequent Selektion deemed him ready to be murdered.

The Political Department which was in every camp had a card index system of prisoners and was responsible for personal documents and for any sort of transports or incoming prisoners. At Auschwitz the Political Department was also responsible for all the selections from incoming transports for the gas chamber. In the crematorium the S.S. and prisoners — Sonderkommando — were under the command of the Kommandant of Auschwitz, Hoess. As the place where the transports generally arrived was in the middle of my own camp I was sometimes present at their arrival. The people who took part in supervising and who were responsible for the security were partly from Auschwitz No. 1, and partly from my own camp at Birkenau, but the selection of these people who had to supervise was done by the Kommandant of Auschwitz No. 1. The actual selections of the internees were made only by doctors. Those who were selected for the gas chambers went to the different crematoria, those who were found to be fit for work came into two different parts of my camp, because the idea was that in a few days they were to be re-transferred to different parts of German [sic] for work.

Take careful note of the final sentence and especially that prisoners deemed by Doctors fit for the slave labour track were in a few days “re-transferred” not within the Death Camp itself, but “to different parts of Germany”

Could this have occurred six times to a boy held prisoner within the Nazi Selektion bureaucracy? Well I can’t see any prevailing reason why it couldn’t over a period of time. So I remain both uncertain of the accuracy of Moshe Peer’s recollection and equally uncertain of those sneering at the feasibility of his recollection.

Sorry I misread that. According to Kramer there was only one centre of authority to decide whether an individual prisoner was selected for extermination or slave labour, but along the way different elements of the bureaucracy, from Nazi authorities stationed in Bergen Belsen all the way to the Death Camp Doctor’s final determination, would play a role in deciding whether the prisoner was to be sent to a Death Camp or not. In this case it certainly is feasible that over a period of time a child prisoner could be sent by Bergen Belsen authorities to death camp(s) and returned over and again.

Thank you for your reasonable reply.

>>> Internationalist

>>> “However we should not forget that 40 million people were killed in the wars in Europe 1939-1945, not six million.”

>>>>> Abso-f*cking-lutely mate.

Including relatives of mine.

And Palestinians are still the innocent victims 64 years later.

>>> As I said, I am Joe Public. I don’t know what happened or didn’t happen. I haven’t spent any time looking into it. But I have picked up some interesting bits and pieces here and there which do make you think.

Well Attila, I live in Germany and in the nearest town alone about 250 Jews were rounded up and deported in 1940. Most of them were eventually murdered. It happened.

However I can understand why people doubt it, given the way that the crimes of yesterday are exploited to justify the crimes of today:

- The denial of the right to return for Palestinians
- The frequent Israeli invasions of neighbors
- The use of allusions to Nazism (“he’s the new Hitler” – how many times have we heard that one?) to justify bombing and murder

Internationalist:

Nobody ever claimed Jews were the only victims of Naziism, and Stalinism either for that matter. They were, how ever, singled out in a way matched only perhaps by the extermination of the even smaller community of Roma and died in numbers vastly disproportionate to any other community.

I hope David or Gene check this thread out and see some of your bile immediately above and send you packing, supposedly anti-racist bigot, along with Atilla.

However I can understand why people doubt it, given the way that the crimes of yesterday are exploited to justify the crimes of today:

Aren’t people so understanding? Ken Loach understands anti-Semitic attacks in Europe following the conflict in Gaza. Internationalist understands holocaust denial. There is every reason for it of course.

So if my little Johnny didn’t want to go to his new school because he was horribly bullied at his old school, and was also sulky and unco-operative in his new school that would somehow prove he wasn’t horribly bullied in his old school after all? Of course. It would be the first thought you would have.

This type of anti-Semitism is wonderful, how it links cause and effect. The anti-Semites, either attacking Jews in Europe or denying the holocaust, are understood so well. Loach and the Internationalist know exactly how they feel.

Internationalist 4 June 2009, 8:07 pm

I wasn’t going to comment any more on this. But perhaps I could clarify something for you:

“However I can understand why people doubt it, given the way that the crimes of yesterday are exploited to justify the crimes of today:”

Well there is all that of course and lots of other things you could mention, such as WMDs and all sorts of other bullshit the powers that be require me to believe in.

They bullshit too much, and I’ve got a long memory.

But my view point is:

Why should I take anything on trust?

Why should I have faith in someone’s opinion?

Why shouldn’t I be able to question anything at all?

amie said I outed myself as one of the ‘just saying tendency’. Absolutely, and why not?

What is in it for me to just blindly believe and repeat the mantras the powers that be tell me I should believe and repeat, when plainly so much of what is received opinion is bullshit. And what is more, is bullshit that often does not serve the interests of me and people like me. I am talking generally here, and not specifically about the matters discussed on this thread. For example:

Why should I believe and repeat that globalization is great when I see all around me, and have seen for a long time jobs disappearing to China and India?

Why should I believe and repeat that ‘mass immigration and diversity are great’ when I have quite a bit of personal experience that tells me otherwise.

Why should I believe in man made global warming? Lots of boffin’s don’t.

Etc…

The powers that be, and authority figures, or people who would like to be authority figures, clearly do not give a shit about me or people like me. And they lie and lie and lie some more.

Why should I believe that something is so, just because my social betters say it so?

I don’t tug my forelock to anyone. Not to Guessedworker or Gordon Brown.

If they paid me to I might. But they aren’t going to do that are they?

Here is a way at looking at things that perhaps somewhat ironically I picked up from an overwhelmingly Jewish organisation:

There are 3 layers of reality.

1. Stuff you can trip over or bump into.

2. Stuff that physics tells you is there – you may not be able to see it but you’d better believe in it.

3. Opinion.

If someone makes an assertion, lets see it argued, and see who has the better argument.

Attila.
You admit yourself that you’ve OMLY read “The Holocaust Industry”. You hvae nothing to doubt as you have no information. I sugest these:
http://www.holocaust-history.org
http://www.shamash.org/holocaust
http://www.nizkor.org
http://www.hdot.org
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org
(there are of course sources like the yadvashem website)

MODERATION QUEUE!!! This is the first time it’s happened to me! Guess it has to happen to everyone once. But what did I say exactly?