I also would be interested to ask whether or not you have taken a stance against the statement made by the Army Rabbinate. I don’t see evidence that you have. Thus I can assume that you agree with ethnic cleasing. I also don’t see anything on your site protesting the illegal settlements or any abuses in which the Israelis have been engaged in their war of attrition against Palestinians. Until you are willing to take a stance against human rights abuses on all sides of the issue I can’t see where you have an ethical leg to stand on.

In the meantime, do contact Stephen. As I said he is a very intelligent person who is more than willing to discuss the issues with you.

And this will be my final communique.

I am very grateful that you are distancing ISCZ from the Jakarta Nakba conference. It is most encouraging. Nevertheless I think to avoid further confusion you should really make sure not anyone can use your group’s name as they see fit.

Otherwise it is confusing – you claim you’re not a political advocacy group yet your group was represented at a political conference in Indonesia.

c.f. your comment:

“You make an interesting assumption here, that whatever Stephen Sizer does is done as a representative of our organization. This would be a legitimate assumption to make if, indeed, the institute had promoted this conference on its website, in which case you could say that the Institute endorsed it.”

http://stephensizer.blogspot.com/2008/05/lost-in-transit-on-road-to-jakarta.html

“Participating organisations and NGOs included the Centre for Middle East and Islamic Studies, University of Indonesia; the International Union of NGOs defending Palestinian Rights (Iran); Neturei Karta International – Orthodox Jews who oppose Zionism (USA); the Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism (me); The United Ulama Council (South Africa); the Muslim Brotherhood (Egypt); Bethlehem Bible College (Palestine); Innovative Minds (UK) together with other speakers from Norway, Lebanon, Australia and Switzerland. Members of the Indonesian parliament and various Middle East ambassadors mingled with journalists, reporters, students and faculty from the university”

I’m more than willing to remove this article from the Seismic Shock blog (and here if possibe) if your group will agree publicly to clear up this controversy. Fred Tobin is most likely under the impression that the Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism is an ally of the Adelaide Institute, and says so on his site. I hope you’ll realise how serious this is.

You’re more than welcome to challenge Christian Zionism, but please would you take steps to ensure this doesn’t happen again.

The fact is, Stephen Sizer decided to attend this conference by his own decision, following the dictates of his own conscience. That this is the case with all who are members of our Institute (which includes pastors, students, university professors, lay persons, and a Conservative Rabbi from LA) is born out by the fact that we all have our own lives. Our institute, in fact, exists only as an educational, informational network of individuals concerned by the threat Christian Zionism poses to peace in the Middle East, not to mention its distortion of orthodox Christian belief. This can be checked (should you be interested) with the State of Illinois where we are registered which states clearly that we have no function outside of an educational one. We are not, like CUFI, a political action committee. We are not in any way involved in political advocacy. We exist simply to make available to the public through our website (which I created and run) information about Christian Zionism, both as a theological and political phenomenon.

We have no funding. We run no conferences. We send no representatives anywhere as there is nothing to represent. Stephen Sizer represents himself, which is certainly understandable as he is a recognized author and preacher, accepting invitations to various events to promote his books, etc. I don’t know what he preaches on Sunday morning, nor what he says at conferences. I have put some of his material on our website. He does the same with material from our website. We have, in other words, a common interest in challenging Christian Zionism. If, however, he asked me to promote holocaust denial on our website (which he won’t because he does not hold these views nor promote them), I would not accept this. If you read the purpose statement of the website you will see that it has nothing whatsoever to do with this. But then I’m not holding my breath as what is becoming clear is that you are less interested in discussing issues than in destroying peoples’ reputation with innuendo, ad hominem attacks and suggestions that keep any opinions other than your own from being heard.

So I’ve answered your questions. At this point you are free do do whatever you like. I would prefer, however, that if you have anything further to add about the issues you have raised that you take them up with Stephen Sizer himself. I know he would welcome a discussion as he is a very intelligent person who is actually quite able to handle his own business.

One final note: next time when you have something you wish to discuss with me please be so kind as to drop me an email using the “contact us” button on the website. The fact that you didn’t do this, choosing instead to use ridicule and innuendo, tells me that perhaps you really aren’t interested in discussing issues in a reasonable way, preferring instead to try to silence those whose opinions are different from your own. And thus my need to move on.

Sizer was not merely in Jakarta in a personal capacity, he represented The Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism in Jakarta.

He admits it himself here:
http://stephensizer.blogspot.com/2008/05/lost-in-transit-on-road-to-jakarta.html

More details on the Voice of Palestine conference here:
http://seismicshock.wordpress.com/2009/03/07/stephen-sizer-responds-to-criticism/

I find it astonishing to believe that Stephen Sizer has represented your organisation without your knowledge, and allowed ISCZ to be associated with Fred Tobin’s Adelaide Institute.

Here you can read the Voice of Palestine aims, which include the dismantling of the state of Israel:
http://voiceofpalestine.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=6

I suggest your organisation withdraw from Voice of Palestine and publicly apologise for its participation in the event. Sharing platforms with militant Islamists and Holocaust deniers who openly promote genocidal policies towards Jews is hardly a good way to promote peace in the Middle East.

Now back to the issue at hand. It was entirely appropriate to make the link I did as one of the defining motifs of Christian Zionism is the belief that the land which is currently under dispute between Israelis and Palestinians belongs to Jews. This is not open for discussion with them. This is a matter of faith. At the third International Biblical Congress on Christian Zionism, which was endorsed by the fourth, they were even more explicit in saying that all of the land belongs to Israel, including Gaza, the West Bank and Golan Heights.

When the army rabbinate made this statement it was, in this sense, a reflection of a tenet of the Christian Zionist faith. There was a direct link. My question, therefore, was whether or not those who signed on to these statements, as well as people who have been publically forthright in supporting Israel’s right to the entire land using biblical borders (a map including in Hagee’s Jerusalem Countdown shows the “Royal Land Grant” which includes not only this land but all of Jordan, parts of Iraq and Saudi, most of Lebanon and Syria.

So it was, indeed, legitimate to ask: “do you believe, as the rabbi does, that the land should be “cleansed” of “gentiles?” This is, in fact, the crucial issue for Christian Zionists. If Israel has a divine right to this land and there are several million Arabs living on it who are not planning to move anytime soon, the only logical conclusion is that they believe Israel has the right to force them off the land.

As for my trip to Syria where the leaders of our church were hosted by the leaders of the Christian Arab community in Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Egypt, which included a visit to the president of Syria at the behest of the General Secretary of the Middle East Council of Churches who was at the time a Syrian Protestant pastor, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue I have raised. I would hope that you actually attempt to deal with the issue at hand rather than engaging in ad hominem attacks which only in the end show the weakness of your own point of view.

Let’s try (I know this may be hard for you) to have a logical, thoughtful discussion here. I’m assuming you are capable of that?

Or have you not read Holocaust denier Fred Tobin’s report on the Jakarta conference?

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/newsletters/n392.htm [WARNING! link to Far Right site]

Read it carefully!

So, will you publicly apologise for this?

P.S. don’t forget to comment here:

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/03/11/fundamentalists-and-crazy-end-times-prophecies/

You asked:

So, John Hubers, do you believe that: the Holocaust never happened, if it did the Jews deserved it, Hitler was a good man, it is acceptable for children to become suicide bombers in a jihad against the Zionist Entity, attacks by on the Royal Navy is fair game if they attempt to stop the smuggling of arms into Gaza, it’s okay to kill Jews around the world, the ushering in of a global Islamic caliphate will be preceded by a genocide of the Jews, and according to the Quran Israel will be destroyed in 2022?

My answers:

The holocaust never happened?

Only an idiot would claim this (recognizing here that the world is full of idiots). It’s one of the things that fuels my passion towards situations where a marginalized people are put upon by those who believe they have the right to do whatever they want to them. (thus my question about ethnic cleansing). I’m committed as I assume you are to making sure that anything even remotely approaching the holocaust never happens again. Its is the 20th century’s greatest, most horrific horror story.

The leap of imagination relating suicide bombers to Hitler.

Hitler was a man who had the power of an army behind him. He was able to do what he did because of it. The power equation is reversed in Israel/Palestine at the moment. Those who engage in suicide bombings do so because they believe (wrongly, I believe) that this is the only weapon they have against a much more powerful enemy. As I am a pacifist by nature I deplore both the practice of suicide bombing and the fanaticism of any belief system that justifies it. But I understand the mentality as it’s found in many other parts of the world where people have been driven to despair by a much more powerful enemy.

Justified to stop smuggling arms?

I would say so, but that was hardly the issue here. The issue was a blockade of goods and transport of peoples that were driving the Gazans to near starvation. It’s interesting how you choose to ignore this fact (and totally ignore what lies behind the army rabbinate’s statement which is, in fact, a disturbing call for wanton destruction and death. Kudos to the IDF soldiers who called them out on this! They, as well as the refusniks who represent the true heroes of the Israeli military). My question to you in return is whether or not you think the Rabbi was right to urge these soldiers on to kill as many palestinians as they chose to kill to drive them off the land.

It’s okay to kill Jews around the world,

No. Neither is it OK to kill Palestinians. Killing is wrong period.

the ushering in of a global Islamic caliphate will be preceded by a genocide of the Jews, and according to the Quran Israel will be destroyed in 2022?

Interesting bit of paranoia you’re trotting out here. Clear evidence that you are clueless about the power equation in Israel/Palestine or the belief system of the vast majority of Muslims around the world (who are by no means a collective mass as you wish us to believe).

I am curious as to where these Qur’anic verses are. Certainly not in any Qur’an I’ve read. . . . .

That there are Muslims who make such claims I don’t doubt. That this is as ridiculous a stretch of interpretive fantasy as is John Hagee’s eschatology or the eschatology of militant messianic Jews is certain. What you need to do is give some proof that there is a significant enough group of Muslims who are actively engaged in seeing this reading of the Qur’an brought to fruition that its worthwhile even talking about it.

That there are Christian Zionists who believe that Israel should engage in violent ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from land that they believe belongs to Israel alone is worth exploring as it lies behind many of the statements they make . . and these people have a lot of clout. This is what lies behind what I wrote.

So I return a question to you: are you an ethnic cleanser? Are you, in fact, proposing a “final solution” for Palestinians?