Comments on: The ‘Jewish lobby’ and Christian anti-Judaism in Evangelicals Now http://hurryupharry.org/2009/03/20/the-%e2%80%98jewish-lobby%e2%80%99-and-christian-anti-judaism-in-evangelicals-now/ Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don't want to hear Fri, 10 Feb 2012 07:11:31 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: zkharya http://hurryupharry.org/2009/03/20/the-%e2%80%98jewish-lobby%e2%80%99-and-christian-anti-judaism-in-evangelicals-now/comment-page-2/#comment-339884 zkharya Mon, 11 May 2009 07:32:43 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=14223#comment-339884 Here's an interesting discovery. Asides his partner, the chiefest acknowledgement of John Rose for his Pluto/SWP-UCU publication, The Myths of Zionism, is none other than the great historian and academic in Jewish studies, Michael Rosen: http://www.scribd.com/doc/9787928/The-Myths-of-Zionism If the issue of Sand's historical theses being right or wrong were so immaterial, why the investment in proving them right, Michael? Here’s an interesting discovery. Asides his partner, the chiefest acknowledgement of John Rose for his Pluto/SWP-UCU publication, The Myths of Zionism, is none other than the great historian and academic in Jewish studies, Michael Rosen:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9787928/The-Myths-of-Zionism

If the issue of Sand’s historical theses being right or wrong were so immaterial, why the investment in proving them right, Michael?

]]> By: Seismic Shock http://hurryupharry.org/2009/03/20/the-%e2%80%98jewish-lobby%e2%80%99-and-christian-anti-judaism-in-evangelicals-now/comment-page-2/#comment-321227 Seismic Shock Mon, 23 Mar 2009 23:33:04 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=14223#comment-321227 ^^ sorry for the repeated comment ^^ sorry for the repeated comment

]]> By: Seismic Shock http://hurryupharry.org/2009/03/20/the-%e2%80%98jewish-lobby%e2%80%99-and-christian-anti-judaism-in-evangelicals-now/comment-page-2/#comment-321225 Seismic Shock Mon, 23 Mar 2009 23:31:13 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=14223#comment-321225 Tentacle - I am not blaming Christianity for the Holocaust. There's a good quote (I think in Hitler's Willing Executioners) which says something like 'the Holocaust was an ungodly act committed by ungodly men, but it would not have been possible without centuries of antisemitic church teaching.' Certainly there were many many Christians who opposed Nazism such as Barth, Niemoller and Bonhoeffer. Yes, every group under the sun should allow self-criticism and self-examination - by no means just Christians. I was talking about the main direction for Christian Holocaust theology (its own theological field), not Christian theology or even Jewish-Christian relations. I mean that there are Holocaust theologians who for my liking adopt a far too fatalistic approach. This is not to accuse them of antisemitism or bigotry by any means, it's just an observation. Tentacle – I am not blaming Christianity for the Holocaust. There’s a good quote (I think in Hitler’s Willing Executioners) which says something like ‘the Holocaust was an ungodly act committed by ungodly men, but it would not have been possible without centuries of antisemitic church teaching.’ Certainly there were many many Christians who opposed Nazism such as Barth, Niemoller and Bonhoeffer. Yes, every group under the sun should allow self-criticism and self-examination – by no means just Christians.

I was talking about the main direction for Christian Holocaust theology (its own theological field), not Christian theology or even Jewish-Christian relations. I mean that there are Holocaust theologians who for my liking adopt a far too fatalistic approach. This is not to accuse them of antisemitism or bigotry by any means, it’s just an observation.

]]> By: Seismic Shock http://hurryupharry.org/2009/03/20/the-%e2%80%98jewish-lobby%e2%80%99-and-christian-anti-judaism-in-evangelicals-now/comment-page-2/#comment-321226 Seismic Shock Mon, 23 Mar 2009 23:31:13 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=14223#comment-321226 Tentacle - I am not blaming Christianity for the Holocaust. There's a good quote (I think in Hitler's Willing Executioners) which says something like 'the Holocaust was an ungodly act committed by ungodly men, but it would not have been possible without centuries of antisemitic church teaching.' Certainly there were many many Christians who opposed Nazism such as Barth, Niemoller and Bonhoeffer. Yes, every group under the sun should allow self-criticism and self-examination - by no means just Christians. I was talking about the main direction for Christian Holocaust theology (its own theological field), not Christian theology or even Jewish-Christian relations. I mean that there are Holocaust theologians who for my liking adopt a far too fatalistic approach. This is not to accuse them of antisemitism or bigotry by any means, it's just an observation. Tentacle – I am not blaming Christianity for the Holocaust. There’s a good quote (I think in Hitler’s Willing Executioners) which says something like ‘the Holocaust was an ungodly act committed by ungodly men, but it would not have been possible without centuries of antisemitic church teaching.’ Certainly there were many many Christians who opposed Nazism such as Barth, Niemoller and Bonhoeffer. Yes, every group under the sun should allow self-criticism and self-examination – by no means just Christians.

I was talking about the main direction for Christian Holocaust theology (its own theological field), not Christian theology or even Jewish-Christian relations. I mean that there are Holocaust theologians who for my liking adopt a far too fatalistic approach. This is not to accuse them of antisemitism or bigotry by any means, it’s just an observation.

]]> By: me here too http://hurryupharry.org/2009/03/20/the-%e2%80%98jewish-lobby%e2%80%99-and-christian-anti-judaism-in-evangelicals-now/comment-page-2/#comment-321187 me here too Mon, 23 Mar 2009 21:30:01 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=14223#comment-321187 Gunga Din, thanks for that. I didn't realise Vilyum was in jail. Whoa... I wish I had more time to study Arabic. As it is, I'm supposed to be learning Syriac (and am spending too much time learning Welsh). But thanks for telling me that re. Vilyum. I assume its a political thing. Gunga Din,

thanks for that. I didn’t realise Vilyum was in jail. Whoa…

I wish I had more time to study Arabic. As it is, I’m supposed to be learning Syriac (and am spending too much time learning Welsh).

But thanks for telling me that re. Vilyum. I assume its a political thing.

]]> By: Tentacle http://hurryupharry.org/2009/03/20/the-%e2%80%98jewish-lobby%e2%80%99-and-christian-anti-judaism-in-evangelicals-now/comment-page-2/#comment-321129 Tentacle Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:34:37 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=14223#comment-321129 Seismic Shock <blockquote>However I think the main focus of Christian Holocaust theology should be to acknowledge the theology, words and actions that allowed many Christians to participate in the Holocaust, and how Christians can take a stand to prevent anything similar from happening again. Hagee’s political Zionism I suspect is his effort to do his utmost to ensure this, although I think Hagee goes too far in his political romanticisation of Israel and by extension all Israeli policies.</blockquote> Blaming Christianity for the Holocaust is like blaming pop music for the AIDS pandemic. Saying that Christians should examine themselves for the roots of the anti-Semitism that led to the Holocaust is insulting and bigoted (and I say that as a non-Christian). Charles Darwin bears much more direct causative relevance to the Holocaust than Jesus of Nazareth in my opinion. Should writers on evolution examine their souls to see what responsibility they have for creating the conditions for the Holocaust? Seismic Shock

However I think the main focus of Christian Holocaust theology should be to acknowledge the theology, words and actions that allowed many Christians to participate in the Holocaust, and how Christians can take a stand to prevent anything similar from happening again. Hagee’s political Zionism I suspect is his effort to do his utmost to ensure this, although I think Hagee goes too far in his political romanticisation of Israel and by extension all Israeli policies.

Blaming Christianity for the Holocaust is like blaming pop music for the AIDS pandemic. Saying that Christians should examine themselves for the roots of the anti-Semitism that led to the Holocaust is insulting and bigoted (and I say that as a non-Christian). Charles Darwin bears much more direct causative relevance to the Holocaust than Jesus of Nazareth in my opinion. Should writers on evolution examine their souls to see what responsibility they have for creating the conditions for the Holocaust?

]]> By: Tentacle http://hurryupharry.org/2009/03/20/the-%e2%80%98jewish-lobby%e2%80%99-and-christian-anti-judaism-in-evangelicals-now/comment-page-2/#comment-321114 Tentacle Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:03:15 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=14223#comment-321114 David Lindsay <blockquote>Here we go again. Like Melanie Phillips in The Spectator a couple of weeks ago, a demand for the banning the proclamation of Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah with everything that that entails, and a shrieking of “anti-Semitism, anti-Semitism” if anyone objects.</blockquote> <blockquote>Why should Christians care more for Israel than for a country in which the Constitution requires that the President be a Christian (Lebanon)? Or a country in which there are Christian-majority provinces, and Christian festivals as public holidays (Syria)? Or a country in which there are three reserved parliamentary seats for Christians (Iran, where there is also a reserved seat for a Jew)?</blockquote> As someone who is neither a Jew nor a Philo-Semite even asking this question is dumb. Basically for all the same reasons that we should care more about South Korea than North Korea. That has nothing to do with the fact that 30% of South Korea are Christians, but that they are a democracy promoting reasonable standards of religious (and other) freedom. You may as well ask why we supported Japan and not the USSR during the cold war when many Russians were Christians. Even thinking about the question makes me feel that my IQ is shrinking. Even viewed just purely from a parochial persecution of Christians point of view, many Arab states are prominent persecutors of Christians, or places where non-state actors persecute Christians, http://www.persecution.org/suffering/country_info.php?PHPSESSID=a492abe5396e6a148884a6965ec753fa Israel just isn't on the radar screen on that front. David Lindsay

Here we go again. Like Melanie Phillips in The Spectator a couple of weeks ago, a demand for the banning the proclamation of Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah with everything that that entails, and a shrieking of “anti-Semitism, anti-Semitism” if anyone objects.

Why should Christians care more for Israel than for a country in which the Constitution requires that the President be a Christian (Lebanon)? Or a country in which there are Christian-majority provinces, and Christian festivals as public holidays (Syria)? Or a country in which there are three reserved parliamentary seats for Christians (Iran, where there is also a reserved seat for a Jew)?

As someone who is neither a Jew nor a Philo-Semite even asking this question is dumb. Basically for all the same reasons that we should care more about South Korea than North Korea. That has nothing to do with the fact that 30% of South Korea are Christians, but that they are a democracy promoting reasonable standards of religious (and other) freedom.

You may as well ask why we supported Japan and not the USSR during the cold war when many Russians were Christians. Even thinking about the question makes me feel that my IQ is shrinking.

Even viewed just purely from a parochial persecution of Christians point of view, many Arab states are prominent persecutors of Christians, or places where non-state actors persecute Christians,
http://www.persecution.org/suffering/country_info.php?PHPSESSID=a492abe5396e6a148884a6965ec753fa
Israel just isn’t on the radar screen on that front.

]]> By: Seismic Shock http://hurryupharry.org/2009/03/20/the-%e2%80%98jewish-lobby%e2%80%99-and-christian-anti-judaism-in-evangelicals-now/comment-page-2/#comment-320847 Seismic Shock Sun, 22 Mar 2009 17:21:46 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=14223#comment-320847 Hi Nick, I agree with you - I don't think Hagee is antisemitic in expressing those views - he believes in God and believes he has a relationship with the Jewish people, and his beliefs about the Holocaust I think are an attempt to reconcile the covenant with historical events - it's a debate which takes place within Judaism, and I see no reason why it cannot take place within Christianity either. However I think the main focus of Christian Holocaust theology should be to acknowledge the theology, words and actions that allowed many Christians to participate in the Holocaust, and how Christians can take a stand to prevent anything similar from happening again. Hagee's political Zionism I suspect is his effort to do his utmost to ensure this, although I think Hagee goes too far in his political romanticisation of Israel and by extension all Israeli policies. I also don't think contradicting yourself is necessarily a bad thing - to append a well-known phrase, One Jew Two Opinions! Hi Nick, I agree with you – I don’t think Hagee is antisemitic in expressing those views – he believes in God and believes he has a relationship with the Jewish people, and his beliefs about the Holocaust I think are an attempt to reconcile the covenant with historical events – it’s a debate which takes place within Judaism, and I see no reason why it cannot take place within Christianity either.

However I think the main focus of Christian Holocaust theology should be to acknowledge the theology, words and actions that allowed many Christians to participate in the Holocaust, and how Christians can take a stand to prevent anything similar from happening again. Hagee’s political Zionism I suspect is his effort to do his utmost to ensure this, although I think Hagee goes too far in his political romanticisation of Israel and by extension all Israeli policies.

I also don’t think contradicting yourself is necessarily a bad thing – to append a well-known phrase, One Jew Two Opinions!

]]> By: Aslan http://hurryupharry.org/2009/03/20/the-%e2%80%98jewish-lobby%e2%80%99-and-christian-anti-judaism-in-evangelicals-now/comment-page-2/#comment-320754 Aslan Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:32:22 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=14223#comment-320754 Sizer can't or won't answer the many charges leveled at him so now he is using bully-boy tactics and threatening to use the police. See the comment he left at this blog: http://largebluefootballs.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-convince-people-that-you-are-not.html He also posted the comment on his own blog site: http://stephensizer.blogspot.com/2009/03/if-i-was-james-mendelsohn-christian.html you can't leave comments on this blog as Sizer turned them off! Sizer can’t or won’t answer the many charges leveled at him so now he is using bully-boy tactics and threatening to use the police. See the comment he left at this blog: http://largebluefootballs.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-convince-people-that-you-are-not.html
He also posted the comment on his own blog site: http://stephensizer.blogspot.com/2009/03/if-i-was-james-mendelsohn-christian.html you can’t leave comments on this blog as Sizer turned them off!

]]> By: Hugh http://hurryupharry.org/2009/03/20/the-%e2%80%98jewish-lobby%e2%80%99-and-christian-anti-judaism-in-evangelicals-now/comment-page-2/#comment-320587 Hugh Sat, 21 Mar 2009 21:07:53 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=14223#comment-320587 Melanie Phillip’s spectator article highlighting Rev. Stephen Sizer http://www.spectator.co.uk/print/the-magazine/features/3409686/beware-the-new-axis-of-evangelicals-and-islamists.thtml was predicated on this meeting in south west London http://www.palestinecampaign.org/index7b-2.asp?m_id=1&l1_id=3&l2_id=62&content_ID=478. As a peace activist in the Tooting constituency of Sadiq Khan the human rights lawyer and Labour Government member, I wrote to him questioning his participation on a platform with Sizer but have still to hear from that local lad made good. Melanie Phillip’s spectator article highlighting Rev. Stephen Sizer http://www.spectator.co.uk/print/the-magazine/features/3409686/beware-the-new-axis-of-evangelicals-and-islamists.thtml was predicated on this meeting in south west London http://www.palestinecampaign.org/index7b-2.asp?m_id=1&l1_id=3&l2_id=62&content_ID=478.
As a peace activist in the Tooting constituency of Sadiq Khan the human rights lawyer and Labour Government member, I wrote to him questioning his participation on a platform with Sizer but have still to hear from that local lad made good.

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