Harry's Place

Yeah nothing like loyalty oaths based on ethnicity. That said at least you are not demanding anything from muslims, well this time around.

Yeah nothing like loyalty oaths based on ethnicity. That said at least you are not demanding anything from muslims, well this time around…

Lenin’s take:

“It is the convulsion of a movement experiencing its last gasps, one whose purpose was just but whose means were always ruinous”

“It is the convulsion of a movement experiencing its last gasps, one whose purpose was just but whose means were always ruinous”

Sounds like Lenin’s own efforts at eating a bacon burger.

Har!

I’m pissing myself here.

I noted that one of the young soldiers was Turkish, although he used an English(Irish) name. Perhaps that has coloured Lenin’s perception of this dreadful crime.

Hopefully someone will talk, there must be at least 12 or so within the grouping of these Republican terrorists who know about these murders; probably more. There is little doubt that in this group’s immediate circle will be a few score who know or find out soon or will be more than a little suspicious; let’s hope that somebody with hard knowledge or strong suspicions and a sense of civic responsibility and common humanity does the decent thing and contacts the PSNI.

There is a very good chance that there is considerable forensic evidence in the abandoned vehicle used by the players which they didn’t torch.

Nick, what’s the point? They wont go to jail anyway. Besides membership of these groups is very clanish. The Provos will know who they are, and may try killing them, if there’s something in for them. They’re all just gangs with political undertones who like to murder each other but decided a while back that it was better to bleed the English taxpayer dry rather than fight each other.

They’re all just gangs with political undertones who like to murder each other but decided a while back that it was better to bleed the English taxpayer dry rather than fight each other.

They were already bleeding the English taxpayer dry – the huge security presence cost a fortune. Plus it cost a great deal to keep the thugs behind bars. Best policy always was to shoot perpetrators on sight, something that wasn’t even attempted on this occasion.

The peace process was a textbook example of how to undermine moderate political groups. A collapse would at least change British policy towards Middle Eastern terrorists, and especially the policy of trying to give the Taliban what they want. Appeasing bullies and gunmen has never worked.

Well the rug was pulled out from the political moderates – Republican and Loyalist. That said, the fact is that PIRA achieved none of its objectives, they’ve got pretty much zip that they couldn’t have got in 1971. Northern Ireland remains part of the UK and the Free State amended its constitution to remove its claim on Northern Ireland.

It’s all too obvious from the utterances of Mc Guiness and Adams, that they are finding it beyond themselves to critique without equivocation the murders committed by these Republican terrorists. That is rather worrying.

They were already bleeding the English taxpayer dry – the huge security presence cost a fortune

You do know that troop levels in NI are now down to pre-1969 levels?

The peace process was a textbook example of how to undermine moderate political groups.

Good grief! It’s kind of how democracy works. Let the people choose their political masters. If the only way the ‘moderate’ political groups could maintain their dominance was for a ‘war’ to rumble on in the background, then what’s to lament? Would you prefer a return to ‘war’ just so the SDLP and UUP can re-establish themselves?

Nick, Sinn Fein got to become a respected political party, the largest Catholic one in the North and a large one in the south. They also got to effectively veto the running of Northern Ireland. The RUC is gone and so is the old Unionist one-party rule. They got thousands of years off prison sentences. They got to keep the protection rackets and drug networks.
And Sinn Fein/PIRA now run large parts of the province as godfathers. They may not have got a united Ireland yet but they had the understanding that when demographics put Catholics in the majority, they can have it (even if the South doesnt want especially want 900,000 angry, heavily-armed Unionists forced into their small state).
Gerry and Martin have never condemned the murder of British troops, they have only ever condemned “attacks on the peace process”. How can they condemn these actions when they have ordered and committed similar acts themselves?

No, Brownie, I would prefer, like most people in Northern Ireland, to have the SDLP and UUP and no war. But instead we have two extremists in charge and a simmering conflict that will eventually explode again.

The SDLP were always more popular with the Catholics in Northern Ireland, most of whom did not want to support extremist murderers, but they just couldnt get anything done because the British government ignored them. Sinn Fein, a much smaller political party who also used the (to English eyes) rather aggressive political policy of murdering people in their hundreds, were in contrast given a veto on all political policy. So if you were a Catholic in Northern Ireland, who would you vote for to deal with the Government on your behalf? Once that happened Protestants obviously saw that the only way they would be listened to would be to elect a hard-line group who threatened to blow the whole thing to pieces.

That is not democracy, it’s fascism.

You’re arguing the Northern Ireland government is fascist?

Ed – what is your solution then ? Its very difficult for these kind of sectarian ethnic conflicts to end up in harmony without compromise. The alternatives are war and population movements or imposed strong arm peacekeeping.

Would you want either of them in NI ?

the IRA is fascist, by any meaningful definition. The “armalite and the ballot box” as a tactic was invented by Hitler, and though lots of them are or claim to be Marxists and the IRA’s intellectual backers have justified them as part of the class war, they are blood and soil fascists. No doubt had Operation Sealion succeeded the IRA would have done as well out of Hitler as the Ustache, and murdered all the Ulster Prods altogether

There is no easy solution. Democracy is impossible in a situation like this, where the demographics are 55-45 and slowly moving towards 50-50. People always vote tribally, which is why people arguing for the “right to return” for Palestinians are talking out of their arse. They know damn well such a state would be unworkable.

We either continue as a gangster state with an “acceptable level of violence”, or we try to force the Prods into accepting a united Ireland (which would mean more violence) or we have a new partition, with a smaller Protestant statelet-let, although unless it’s at least 80 per cent protestant it wont work. So it would mean forced population movement, a pretty serious task for a liberal democracy. Alternatively we could divide the province into 30 or so cantons with strong Catholic and Protestant majorities.

they had the understanding that when demographics put Catholics in the majority, they can have it (even if the South doesnt want especially want 900,000 angry, heavily-armed Unionists forced into their small state).

Except that won’t happen. Last census confirmed a trend (which was pointed out first by Garret Fitzgerald of all people) that the ‘Catholic minority’ will top out about 45% or so and then fall back.

As for the current situation in NI, the GFA was approved by 80% or so of voters and hence, notwithstanding its mistakes, has my approval.

I’ve always felt that since the greater part of the majority population in Northern Ireland is of Scottish origin, the solution is to unilaterally declare it part of Scotland – Scotland New Oban or some such nonsense and let the Scots deal with it. After all about half the people living in Scotland are of Irish descent. Perhaps they could form a Gaelic Federation had have codominium over N. Ireland. Meanwhile, we English (and Welsh) would be so much the richer.

However, not much chance of getting rid of the canny Scots after the recent economic downturn.

They [SF] also got to effectively veto the running of Northern Ireland.

I think you’ll find it’s the DUP that brought down power-sharing on at least half-a-dozen occasions since the NI Assembly came into being.

They got thousands of years off prison sentences.

THe prisoner release program applies only to members of groups who are committed to the peace process and includes loyalists as well as republicans, not to mention British soldiers who were convicted of murder (Wright and Fisher).

They got to keep the protection rackets and drug networks.

Baloney.

They may not have got a united Ireland yet but they had the understanding that when demographics put Catholics in the majority, they can have it

The demographics will not favour a reunited Ireland for centuries to come, and even if they did, it’s more a case that the people in NI would need to vote for it rather than “they [SF] can have it”. What’s to object to, here? Do you rejectthe right of the people of NI to determine their own constitutional status? I thouught it was only republican terrorists who thought like this?

But instead we have two extremists in charge and a simmering conflict that will eventually explode again.

I’d like to see one acknowledgement from you – just one – that it’s the democratically expressed wish of the people that sees these “two extremists” in charge.

The SDLP were always more popular with the Catholics in Northern Ireland, most of whom did not want to support extremist murderers, but they just couldnt get anything done because the British government ignored them. Sinn Fein, a much smaller political party who also used the (to English eyes) rather aggressive political policy of murdering people in their hundreds, were in contrast given a veto on all political policy. So if you were a Catholic in Northern Ireland, who would you vote for to deal with the Government on your behalf? Once that happened Protestants obviously saw that the only way they would be listened to would be to elect a hard-line group who threatened to blow the whole thing to pieces.

It’s difficult to imagine something more arse-about-face. Sinn Fein’s political success correlated exactly with their preparedness to reject violence as a means of achieving their political goals. They were offered a seat at the negotiating table only AFTER rejecting violence, ageeing to sit in a partitionist NI government and accepting that the constitutional status of NI was a question for the people of NI alone. In other words, they rowed back on 70-odd years of Irish republicanism. That’s some “veto on all political policy”.

Morgoth, the people voted for GFA because they had been attacked with violence for 30 years and told by everyone, and the Government, that unless they voted for this agreement the violence would not stop. That’s not democracy in my book.

You may be right about the census. Population growth among Irish Catholics has reached the same moribund levels as the rest of western Europe, and the arrival of eastern Europeans has also made statistics on Catholics and Protestants meaningless. An example of how the conflict is ethnic and not religious: Sinn Fein said the police service must be 50 per cent Catholic, knowing this is unworkable, because Catholics who join the police tend to get late night visits from Gerry Adams’ friends. So the Government hires lots of Poles and Lithuanians. And Sinn Fein says “not acceptable, we meant, you know, Catholics”.

Either way the government there is unworkable. Imagine Combat 18 and a Hezbollah UK off-shoot both having access to a large arsenal and seats in Westminster and being able to veto anything that goes through Parliament.
The only thing the two sides could agree on was abortion, and London over ruled them on that.

We either continue as a gangster state with an “acceptable level of violence”

“Gangster state”? What are you drinking, pal? I’d like to see the statistics from NI on violence, drugs offences and racketeering, and have them compared with similar sized geographies in the rest of the UK. Belfast must have a population pushing 300k now. Are the crime patters in Belfast significantly different to what we see in other major cities dotted across the UK?

Morgoth, the people voted for GFA because they had been attacked with violence for 30 years and told by everyone, and the Government, that unless they voted for this agreement the violence would not stop.

The people were told “vote for the GFA” and the violence would stop and, for very much the most part, it has. They were right and you were wrong.

That’s not democracy in my book.

Yeah, we know. Democracy, in your “book”, is when people get something they didn’t vote for because it’s not “moderate” enough for you, or preferably when the people aren’t given a vote at all.

brownie, is there any accepted New Labour wisdom you won’t swallow?

“I think you’ll find it’s the DUP that brought down power-sharing on at least half-a-dozen occasions since the NI Assembly came into being.”
Maybe, maybe not, the point is that Sinn Fein has at best 25 per cent of the popular vote, and has a veto on government policy only because it has guns. In no other state or statelet does a party of that size have a veto.

“THe prisoner release program applies only to members of groups who are committed to the peace process and includes loyalists as well as republicans, not to mention British soldiers who were convicted of murder (Wright and Fisher).”
What makes you think I have any more sympathy for Loyalist murderers?

“They got to keep the protection rackets and drug networks.
Baloney.”
The IRA and the UFF and UVF’s criminal activity is well-documented. If you’ve bought any drugs in Ireland, chances are some of the money has ended up with Loyalist paramilitaries.

“I’d like to see one acknowledgement from you – just one – that it’s the democratically expressed wish of the people that sees these “two extremists” in charge.”

“Sinn Fein’s political success correlated exactly with their preparedness to reject violence as a means of achieving their political goals. They were offered a seat at the negotiating table only AFTER rejecting violence, ageeing to sit in a partitionist NI government and accepting that the constitutional status of NI was a question for the people of NI alone. In other words, they rowed back on 70-odd years of Irish republicanism. That’s some “veto on all political policy”.

Bullsh1t. Sinn Fein’s political success came about because Irish people, even those in big houses in Dublin 4, saw that they had brought the mighty British government to its knees. I dont know about you, Im of Irish descent and Ive visited Ireland every year of my life. Ireland’s history has been blighted first by the English and then by the gunmen, and by intellectuals who justify the most outrageous murders. To have those people in power is shameful.

Sinn Fein would be nothing without the legimitacy and power they received from the GFA. For people to say that a party winning power through the armalite and the ballot box is “democracy” is utter rubbish.

‘The “armalite and the ballot box” as a tactic was invented by Hitler’

…and it gets more village idiot from there

But here is a classic – ‘No doubt had Operation Sealion succeeded the IRA would have done as well out of Hitler as the Ustache, and murdered all the Ulster Prods altogether’

When the Germans invaded Croatia in 1941, they continuely ask Macek to form a ‘national unity’ government based on his peasent party, the dominant force in Croatia inter-war politics. The German’s terms were simple. Give Italy Damatia, give us the Jews and total access to your men and resources and keep order. Macek refused, mostly over Dalmatia it seems.

Pavelic on the otherhand accepted, on the condition that he and the party could carry out their program of making Croatia ‘Serbo-fein’. The Germans reluctantly accepted but continued to have contact with Macek, even after the Ustasha had placed him under house arrest and the civil war became a vast drain on Germany’s resources.

For the anti-Treaty IRA to have come to power like the Ustasha, both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gail would of had to refused to rule a hypothetical United Ireland, or if the Germans prefered a Ulster Free state, any of the Unionist factions. Whilst none of this could be considered ‘post-sectarian’, neither can they be thought of fascist parties, dedicated to ‘repristination’.

It must be remembered that Hitler only appointed fascist collaborater governments when the traditional conservative or nationalist elites refused or had swapped sides i.e. Hungary and Romania in late 1944, Italy in 1943

While any normal person disapproves of murder, this smells of loyalty oaths, orthodoxy, and witch-hunting. Par for the course for HP, then.

“While any normal person disapproves of murder, this smells of loyalty oaths, orthodoxy, and witch-hunting.”

A facebook group is now a loyalty oath? Witch-hunting has sure gone soft these days.

Ireland unfree — or divided — shall never be at peace.

Maybe, maybe not, the point is that Sinn Fein has at best 25 per cent of the popular vote, and has a veto on government policy only because it has guns. In no other state or statelet does a party of that size have a veto.

What the fuck? Can you please cite me the examples of SF exercising its veto on government policy? There are some resolutions that must recevie cross community support to pass, for rather obvious reasons, but this is simnply a legislative provision and nothing to do with whomsoever “has guns”. I’m not a great fan of the ‘petition of concern’ process, either, but this is what the parties agreed to.

The IRA and the UFF and UVF’s criminal activity is well-documented. If you’ve bought any drugs in Ireland, chances are some of the money has ended up with Loyalist paramilitaries.

I don’t doubt this. Pick anywhere in the UK and the organised crime is in the hands of the, um, organised criminals. The organised criminals in NI were mostly republican and loyalist terrorsits and are now ex-republican and ex-loyalist terrorists. My argument was with your contention that these groups “were allowed to keep” their rackets. I’m afraid there would still be petrol, cigarette and drugs rackets in NI even without clearly identifiable sectarian gangs operating them.

Sinn Fein’s political success came about because Irish people, even those in big houses in Dublin 4, saw that they had brought the mighty British government to its knees.

It’s wonder that a republican party that has brought HMG to its knees would sign up for partitionist government, is it not?

I dont know about you, Im of Irish descent and Ive visited Ireland every year of my life. Ireland’s history has been blighted first by the English and then by the gunmen, and by intellectuals who justify the most outrageous murders. To have those people in power is shameful.

But it’s not “those people”. With one or two notable exceptions (post-Sands, etc.), Sinn Fein were entirely insignificant politically. They would have remained that way so long as they were wed to the bomb and ballot box philosophy. It really isn’t a coincidence that their political fortunes only turned around once they committed themselves to peaceful means.

Would I prefer a NI run by Hume and Trimble? Probably. But then it really isn’t my business which parties the people of NI vote for. I’m just keen they get to vote and have their democratically expressed preferences represented in the government that rules over them.

Sinn Fein would be nothing without the legimitacy and power they received from the GFA.

Or more generally, political movement X would be nothing without the votes of the people who support party X. Quelle feckin’ surprise!

It’s one thing to argue the GFA was a mistake, but quite another to claim it’s undemocratic.

But then it really isn’t my business which parties the people of NI vote for.

To qualify, I’ve always been a strong advocate of the major Westminster parties organising in NI.

Social Republican. I know it’s pointless speculating about what if, but I’m pointing out that the IRA has a long fascist tradition.
Had Hitler invaded Britain it would have been very likely he would have crossed to Ireland (who knows, he made mistakes, maybe he wouldnt have, but Ireland’s ports were quite neccessary if he was to fight America). The two major Irish political parties would definitely have opposed Hitler, whereas Ireland’s third political force, the outlawed IRA (there were, of course, the Blueshirts, but unlike the IRA they could not have drawn on large sections of the population, especially in the west and north).

And Brownie – picture this scenario. The BNP have 20 per cent of the seats at Westminster and, as representatives of the “white community”, have a veto on policies. (you oppose that word, veto, but Sinn Fein has one). Then imagine a BNP with guns and bombs that had murdered thosuands of its opponents, and had refused to give up a single gun. And now dissident neo-Nazis murder Asians or blacks or Muslims and Nick Griffin gives weasel-worded condemning these murders as ‘attacks on the peace process”. would you accept that scenario?

‘the IRA has a long fascist tradition’

No, it really didn’t. As twisted as some of the uber-nationalist romantic crap they spouted, their ideological outlook and weltanschuuang was different to fascism.

‘armalite and the ballot box’ is a tactic about for countless years. Two examples, the Sans Culottes movement around the commune in 1792-5 and the physical force arm of the Chartist movement. Even the United Irish were committed to a dual strategy. If you can make a case for the united Irish as some proto-form of fascism in any meaningful sense, you are a better man than I or countless historians or political scientists.

Hitler post Beer hall was convinced that military action was completely pointless in the ‘conquest of the state’. If the Reichwehr was not with him, they would quickly crush any uprising. Similarly, he believed without a mass party, that is one remarkably incapable of putschist conspiracy, he could not achieve his ‘transformation’ of german society. Look at some of the work of the Volkpartei thesis, now largely undeniable, to see how large and socially heterodox the Nazi coalition was. The violence of the SA and SS was no uprising, but a carefully reined in effort at increasing socail tensions, or social scission. One thing fascists have been very bad at is vanguardism and violence against the state. They excelled at ’sub-state’ violence, against their political, ideological or racial enemies ‘on the street’. I really don’t like to evoke it, but permature Godwins methinks

and had refused to give up a single gun.

Have you been living in a cave since 1998?

These Republican Terrorists are – to borrow from the 2nd Boer war – ‘bitter enders’. They will be likely apprehended by the PCNI on the basis of intelligence received and or forensic evidence and sent down or rather considerably less likely, killed by British security forces. They and their Republican cohorts will loose, they will not cause ‘The Troubles’ to re-ignite significantly. Though that said, there is a significant risk that Loyalists paramilitaries will have a ‘retaliatory’ pop at some well known vocal gobby and punchy Republicans which could cause a temporary flare-up.

These Rebs do not have a vaguely viable mass of hearts and minds, even in the Catholic section of the sectarian devide.

I established the Facebook group because I thought it was important to give people who were Irish and of Irish descent and connection all of the world (such as myself, in London) a chance to speak out.

I know it may amaze some of the people who troll around here, but the people of Ireland do not need the approval of the English far-left in order to get on with their life. They have made their democratic will perfectly clear and the murders of Saturday night are in no sense democratic, legitimate, romantic or heroic.

In the meantime, if you care about Ireland, democracy, peace and the rule of law, then sign up. The group is entitled the way it is because I thought it was pretty important to make it clear even to everyone that Ireland and the Irish have made their mind up on this issue, but anyone who cares about a shared future in these islands and beyond is more than welcome to stand with us.

‘The two major Irish political parties would definitely have opposed Hitler’ – very doubtful. Especially given that Ireland was the only nation on Earth to offer its official condolences to their German ambassador on Hitler’s death. The pro-treaty parties would have still jumped at the chance to unite the Isle, that would have fulfilled the original promise of the various consitutions to (re)unification

“The pro-treaty parties would have still jumped at the chance to unite the Isle, that would have fulfilled the original promise of the various consitutions to (re)unification”

If Develera wanted to unite the country so badly he could have taken Churchhills offer, and joined the war on the British side.

Ireland would certainly have organised a resistance against the Germans, since the country wanted to be free of any imperialist involvement. As for the which group would be more, or less, likely to be sympathetic to the Germans , it was Northern Ireland which ran a supremacist State at the time, not the Republic ( which had Protestant Presidents within it’s first few decades, and I think we are all waiting for the UK to enter the 18th century and allow a Catholic Head of State).

Northern Ireland would have made Germans feel at home. Remember Hitler saw England as an Ayran power, a Germanic People. His feelings on Ireland are obscure, but probably he felt it – like all small – nations deserved to be trampled on.

Most of this is whatiffery, though. The ( at the time) very real racist and sectarian State of Northern Ireland is contrasted with the hypothetical “fascist” State in IReland, were the Germans to take over. Counter factuals are useless. We have to deal with facts.

By the way, as a citizen of the Repubic, not Northern Ireland why would I sign a book opposing acts by British Subjects on British Subjects, why would this be even relevant to me, and why would there not a similar book for English people were the UVF to attack Catholics. Is this because

1) Irish citizens, not in the same State as the perps here, are responsible for the (tricolour waving) Real IRA in a way that English people in the same State as the Union Jack waving UVF are not? Why not? Would English people sign a book saying “not in my name” if the UVF started up, and if not why not?
2) Is this the same logic that sees Northern Ireland as British as Finchley but with everybody being Irish when engaged in terrorism, UVF included?
3) What does it mean that we can’t , or shouldnt have, given in to terrorism in Northern Ireland? It would seem we would have to, given that one side wants the State to remain as is, the other side wants the union to disolve. By maintaining the status quo prior to the GFA were we not giving into terrorism since that is what the Loyalist gangs wanted; or were the Loyalist gangs not terrorists, and if not, why not? Did they become “Irish” when engaged in terrorism against Catholics; though acting as British loyalists; while the whole place was still as Britsh As Finchley, and they British subjects all along.

Or were they not terrorists at all? Or were they a better form of terrorist, killing the right people?

What a weird place, the UK part of the Island I live in. As a 26 county nationalist I see neither side as Irish – despite the GFA.

Sort out your own mess.

Fionn,

I mostly share the sentiments that so obviously underpin your comment, but to be fair the majority of British people it’s not so much that Loyalist gangs are cut more slack, it’s that the media in the UK did such a piss-poor job of reporting the conflict that your average Brit thinks UVF is a broadcasting frequency.

The truth is that most Brits couldn’t give a flying toss if NI remains part of the UK or becomes part of a united Ireland. It really was ever thus.

“Would English people sign a book saying “not in my name” if the UVF started up, and if not why not?”

1. Yes I am sure many would – there is no signifcant consistituency that ever supported the UVF in England, and their prospects of gaiing support would be even lower now after the settlement which has been reached.

2. I know the Irish Republicans / Nationalists tend to blame the English for the actions of the Brits but such a book would be equally relevant for those from other British nations, given that the UVF purported to act for the benefit of Britain (and given that the Scots have more connections with, and intereset in NI than the English).

3. The identity of Ulster Unionists/Prods/Scots-Irish has always been a complex mixture of Britishness and Irishness. I see them as an ethno-national group distinct from Irish Catholisc north and south and with much in common with Scottish Protestants. Different from Finchley yes – but is Finchely the ultimate in Britishness? Quite a few synagogues in Finchley. Newport, Glasgow, St. Ives, Southall and Kilburn are also British but very diferferent.

4. Irish Republicanism was (and to an extent remains) an undemocractic or even anti-democratic movement, obsessed with romantic nationalism and the tactics of terrorism. Its consistuency was/is reactionary, anti Protestant, anti English and Catholic. Not fascism, nor communism but more in common with reactionary totalistarianism than progressive democractic politics of social democracy and democratic socialism.