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	<title>Comments on: 100 years of state pension &#8211; what now?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://hurryupharry.org/2009/01/31/100-years-of-state-pension-what-now/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/01/31/100-years-of-state-pension-what-now/</link>
	<description>Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don&#039;t want to hear</description>
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		<title>By: Alan Ji</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/01/31/100-years-of-state-pension-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-297137</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Ji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=12415#comment-297137</guid>
		<description>ag      @   1 February 2009, 4:45 pm 

&quot;Sarah, the reason car insurance is compulsory is to ensure that victims of accidents where you are at fault can be compensated. No-one else is hurt if you default on your mortgage.&quot;

More than a bit oversimplified. Even if you live by yourself in the dwelling, your loss and homelessness affects others. If you&#039;re a non-resident landlord and your tenants are evicted as a result of your default, lots of people may well be affected at great personal and public cost. Just one of the reasons why we need a new legal framework for landlord crime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ag      @   1 February 2009, 4:45 pm </p>
<p>&#8220;Sarah, the reason car insurance is compulsory is to ensure that victims of accidents where you are at fault can be compensated. No-one else is hurt if you default on your mortgage.&#8221;</p>
<p>More than a bit oversimplified. Even if you live by yourself in the dwelling, your loss and homelessness affects others. If you&#8217;re a non-resident landlord and your tenants are evicted as a result of your default, lots of people may well be affected at great personal and public cost. Just one of the reasons why we need a new legal framework for landlord crime.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Ji</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/01/31/100-years-of-state-pension-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-297001</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Ji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=12415#comment-297001</guid>
		<description>Cranmer      @   31 January 2009, 6:28 pm 

&quot;Wouldn’t it be infinitely more pleasant to live in a society where the state kept its nose out of the market place&quot;

Cranmer, do you think this statement actually has any meaning?

A market is a human institution that operates under the rule of law. Without the state there would be no markets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cranmer      @   31 January 2009, 6:28 pm </p>
<p>&#8220;Wouldn’t it be infinitely more pleasant to live in a society where the state kept its nose out of the market place&#8221;</p>
<p>Cranmer, do you think this statement actually has any meaning?</p>
<p>A market is a human institution that operates under the rule of law. Without the state there would be no markets.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Ji</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/01/31/100-years-of-state-pension-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-296998</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Ji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=12415#comment-296998</guid>
		<description>devorgilla      @   1 February 2009, 2:22 pm 

&quot;Globalisation is NOT working.&quot;

Globalisation is giving millions of people the opportunity to become workers instead of peasants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>devorgilla      @   1 February 2009, 2:22 pm </p>
<p>&#8220;Globalisation is NOT working.&#8221;</p>
<p>Globalisation is giving millions of people the opportunity to become workers instead of peasants.</p>
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		<title>By: Nearly Oxfordian</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/01/31/100-years-of-state-pension-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-296965</link>
		<dc:creator>Nearly Oxfordian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=12415#comment-296965</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Brown needs to think&lt;/i&gt;

The very definition of an oxymoron, surely?

Oh, OK, I know it&#039;s an imperative, not a factual statement ... but you know what I mean.
It simply won&#039;t happen. It is a physical impossibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Brown needs to think</i></p>
<p>The very definition of an oxymoron, surely?</p>
<p>Oh, OK, I know it&#8217;s an imperative, not a factual statement &#8230; but you know what I mean.<br />
It simply won&#8217;t happen. It is a physical impossibility.</p>
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		<title>By: ag</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/01/31/100-years-of-state-pension-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-296888</link>
		<dc:creator>ag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 16:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=12415#comment-296888</guid>
		<description>Sarah, the reason car insurance is compulsory is to ensure that victims of accidents where you are at fault can be compensated. No-one else is hurt if you default on your mortgage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah, the reason car insurance is compulsory is to ensure that victims of accidents where you are at fault can be compensated. No-one else is hurt if you default on your mortgage.</p>
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		<title>By: devorgilla</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/01/31/100-years-of-state-pension-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-296852</link>
		<dc:creator>devorgilla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 14:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=12415#comment-296852</guid>
		<description>&#039;In other news, is this the Powellite strikes against immigrant labour of 40 years ago, or are the non-white faces being kept off the screens?&#039;

Brown is a Stalinist. Globalisation is NOT working. All power to the wildcat strikers, I say. Brown needs to think again, bargain harder with the EU and the international forces of globalisation.

He said he would defend British jobs, so do it, Gordon. Don&#039;t replicate the old army system - where everybody gets to kick the cat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;In other news, is this the Powellite strikes against immigrant labour of 40 years ago, or are the non-white faces being kept off the screens?&#8217;</p>
<p>Brown is a Stalinist. Globalisation is NOT working. All power to the wildcat strikers, I say. Brown needs to think again, bargain harder with the EU and the international forces of globalisation.</p>
<p>He said he would defend British jobs, so do it, Gordon. Don&#8217;t replicate the old army system &#8211; where everybody gets to kick the cat.</p>
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		<title>By: devorgilla</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/01/31/100-years-of-state-pension-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-296849</link>
		<dc:creator>devorgilla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 14:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=12415#comment-296849</guid>
		<description>&#039;These figures seem hardly credible. One of my grandfathers was a farm labourer and he told me his wage (20s/30s) was 8 shillings/week. 30s in 1909 sounds like a fortune to me. Does anyone have any other anecdotes?&#039;

Your grandfather is right, but there were grades of farm labourers, from boys aged 14-18, who got half wages, to skilled jobs like ploughing, which required knowledge of horses. Ploughmen (in Scotland, anyway) got £30-35 pa. I suspect your grandfather&#039;s anecdote is based on his starting pay as a young lad.

Plus farm workers got board and lodging, and some food and coal thrown in. Then I suppose there was also what you could fish, poach and scoop up from the wild. Hugh Fearnley-Whittingham is just building on country lore of recent generations. So much so, that even though agricultural wages were acknowledged to be pretty dire, they were often able to save their meagre earnings - away from the temptations of the town.

But prospects were awful. Farming was becoming more mechanised, and there was zero possibility of buying a small-holding, even a heap of stone with a cabbage patch. Landowners wouldn&#039;t sell tiny patches of land.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;These figures seem hardly credible. One of my grandfathers was a farm labourer and he told me his wage (20s/30s) was 8 shillings/week. 30s in 1909 sounds like a fortune to me. Does anyone have any other anecdotes?&#8217;</p>
<p>Your grandfather is right, but there were grades of farm labourers, from boys aged 14-18, who got half wages, to skilled jobs like ploughing, which required knowledge of horses. Ploughmen (in Scotland, anyway) got £30-35 pa. I suspect your grandfather&#8217;s anecdote is based on his starting pay as a young lad.</p>
<p>Plus farm workers got board and lodging, and some food and coal thrown in. Then I suppose there was also what you could fish, poach and scoop up from the wild. Hugh Fearnley-Whittingham is just building on country lore of recent generations. So much so, that even though agricultural wages were acknowledged to be pretty dire, they were often able to save their meagre earnings &#8211; away from the temptations of the town.</p>
<p>But prospects were awful. Farming was becoming more mechanised, and there was zero possibility of buying a small-holding, even a heap of stone with a cabbage patch. Landowners wouldn&#8217;t sell tiny patches of land.</p>
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		<title>By: Alec</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/01/31/100-years-of-state-pension-what-now/comment-page-1/#comment-296805</link>
		<dc:creator>Alec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 11:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=12415#comment-296805</guid>
		<description>Indeed an interesting post.  I had a grandmother who was born in 1905, and she recalled, from before she went to school, seeing an old woman in her village totter down to the post office to collect the five bob.

Was there not an encounter towards the close of The Ragged Trouser Philanthropists in which Owens met an old acquaintance (name eludes me) who was then writing speeches for some ruling-class grandee.  Appalled, Owens asked why.

Because I need the money.

As has been said, although there is a lumpen class, they are not representative of the unemployed or, I dare say, millions strong.  My mother, until she reached retirement age, was L.T.U. despite her best efforts to make use of her university education and teaching experience.

For every Madoff in custody, there will be a wheen of other &#039;banksters&#039; who made off with bonuses after pension funds were frittered away.  I recall as this was happening in the 1990s, or explicitly during the Enron debacle and wattknot, ordinary working or lower middle-classes were told, in perfect seriousness, that placing all their chips on one horse - that is, company pension/shares schemes which directors and stockbrokers had made wads from - was reckless.

In other news, is &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7863316.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; the Powellite strikes against immigrant labour of 40 years ago, or are the non-white faces being kept off the screens?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed an interesting post.  I had a grandmother who was born in 1905, and she recalled, from before she went to school, seeing an old woman in her village totter down to the post office to collect the five bob.</p>
<p>Was there not an encounter towards the close of The Ragged Trouser Philanthropists in which Owens met an old acquaintance (name eludes me) who was then writing speeches for some ruling-class grandee.  Appalled, Owens asked why.</p>
<p>Because I need the money.</p>
<p>As has been said, although there is a lumpen class, they are not representative of the unemployed or, I dare say, millions strong.  My mother, until she reached retirement age, was L.T.U. despite her best efforts to make use of her university education and teaching experience.</p>
<p>For every Madoff in custody, there will be a wheen of other &#8216;banksters&#8217; who made off with bonuses after pension funds were frittered away.  I recall as this was happening in the 1990s, or explicitly during the Enron debacle and wattknot, ordinary working or lower middle-classes were told, in perfect seriousness, that placing all their chips on one horse &#8211; that is, company pension/shares schemes which directors and stockbrokers had made wads from &#8211; was reckless.</p>
<p>In other news, is <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7863316.stm" rel="nofollow">this</a> the Powellite strikes against immigrant labour of 40 years ago, or are the non-white faces being kept off the screens?</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/01/31/100-years-of-state-pension-what-now/comment-page-1/#comment-296782</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 09:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=12415#comment-296782</guid>
		<description>RTP is a really good read ...  can I quickly recommend a very recent novel which also deals with the moral and practical problems associated with the welfare state, Chris Beckett&#039;s &#039;Marcher&#039;.  This is set in a near-future England in which those who depend on benefits are disenfranchised and live in special &#039;inclusion zones&#039; which, in some cases, they are banned from ever leaving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RTP is a really good read &#8230;  can I quickly recommend a very recent novel which also deals with the moral and practical problems associated with the welfare state, Chris Beckett&#8217;s &#8216;Marcher&#8217;.  This is set in a near-future England in which those who depend on benefits are disenfranchised and live in special &#8216;inclusion zones&#8217; which, in some cases, they are banned from ever leaving.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Ji</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2009/01/31/100-years-of-state-pension-what-now/comment-page-1/#comment-296777</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Ji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 09:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/?p=12415#comment-296777</guid>
		<description>Sarah      @   1 February 2009, 8:22 am 

&quot;The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists ........ seen as a socialist classic and it’s certainly an eloquent attack on labour/welfare conditions at the time it struck me that the novel could be read as an endorsement of quite conservative policies. Nearly all the characters in the novel are more than willing to work and only suffer because there is almost no welfare or health provision of any kind. They wouldn’t understand, I think, why welfare shouldn’t be held back from those who repeatedly turn down opportunities to work.&quot;  

Rights and responsibilities go together. Socialism gets into trouble when it drifts away from those values into liberal mush. 

I haven&#039;t read the book, but when I saw the play at the Theatre Royal Stratford, they painted the set every performance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah      @   1 February 2009, 8:22 am </p>
<p>&#8220;The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists &#8230;&#8230;.. seen as a socialist classic and it’s certainly an eloquent attack on labour/welfare conditions at the time it struck me that the novel could be read as an endorsement of quite conservative policies. Nearly all the characters in the novel are more than willing to work and only suffer because there is almost no welfare or health provision of any kind. They wouldn’t understand, I think, why welfare shouldn’t be held back from those who repeatedly turn down opportunities to work.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Rights and responsibilities go together. Socialism gets into trouble when it drifts away from those values into liberal mush. </p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read the book, but when I saw the play at the Theatre Royal Stratford, they painted the set every performance.</p>
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