Harry's Place

This makes me fucking angry. It is an absolute disgrace. One day, I hope, these people will look back and feel deep shame.

I also went to witness the march. A motley collection of islamists, trots, SWP, peaceniks …. from the outset there was an agressive self righteous edge shared by the participants. It was no surprise to me that teh demonstration led to violaence and attacks on property like Starbucks and attacks on the police. Many of the the thugs came prepared wearing motorcycple helmets and masks that could keep any tear gas away from their eyes.

Especially repellent were the calls to prays as a political gesture. Seeing 30 takfirs shouting alluhuakbar then getting down to impromptu prayers confirms my belief that the UK no longer has the ability or willpower to stand up to islamism.

Soon you’ll hear of the need to change British policies to placate islamists.

What, no Neturei Karta?

Too antisemitic even for them?

To be fair David, they did taunt the Muslim marchers with the symbols of mass killers of Muslims.

Jamaat e Islami were there to taunt the millions of Bangladeshis killed or raped by them.

Baa’thist Iraqis,to taunt the Kurds.

Al Queda to taunt all Shiites.

We are fed up with these fuckwits

attacks on property like Starbucks

Well, have you seen the price of their bloody coffee? No that is a disgrace.

attacks on property like Starbucks

Well, have you seen the price of their bloody coffee? No that is a disgrace.

Har har. I bet you’d be laughing too if you’d been working there or sitting with your family there.

Not sure why people always have a pop at Starbucks at hese kind of things, they don’t even have any shops in Israel. Besides, their lemon and poppy seed muffins are delicious.

I think these protesters are are bit like those people who confuse paediatricians with paedophiles. You know, Starbucks = Star of David/American bucks, that type of thing.

Dingbats.

What’s the Al Qaeda affiliation? Is that flag the official emblem of ‘Bin Laden’s Ummah Funtimes Incorporated’

I wouldn’t work at Starbucks even if they paid me to. I wouldn’t take my family there even if they paid me too.

No, don’t start, dear Decents, it’s not what you think. I just don’t like coffee, or their sausage rolls. :-)

you have to admit that the stop the war coalition placards are very well designed, good typeface etc. ditto the islamic flags, the calligraphy is pretty cool. I am convinced that this is why a lot of people empathise with the causes stwc espouse. similarly hezbollah flags, che pictures, kaffiyeh wearing etc. on the other hand, the idf logo is also cool.

They also routinely spell Israel, “Isreal”.

Not because it ‘is real’ but because they don’t want to write the name of the country whose existence they refuse to accept. So I was told.

They also routinely spell Israel, “Isreal”.

Not because it ‘is real’ but because they don’t want to write the name of the country whose existence they refuse to accept. So I was told.

Can I issue a preemptive “fuck off” to Sunny before he shows up and starts making lame excuses for marching with these creeps?

hundreds of children are being murdered and the best harrys place can coome up with is this shit?????

So, is it possible to have a decent march against this war?

I am not saying you would agree with them, but just folk that wouldn’t be beyond the pale?

Saeed

I must have missed your contribution here when 123 Israeli children were murdered by Palestinian suicide bombers from 2000 to 2005.

hundreds of children havnt been massacred anyway so why bother responding to him

OliverP

thats because i was too busy criticising islamo-fascists in the ‘real’ world…now i just cruise blogs…

So, is it possible to have a decent march against this war?

Sure. There’s one scheduled for tomorrow.

Gosh. Very impressive work Mr T. This is quite scary, isn’t it. On the other hand, this was a massive rally, the BBC estimate 50,000, organisers estimate 100,000 and police say 12,000. You have obviously been highly selective in what you’ve shown. Ok, so this is a good summary of the extreme elements at the march. Anyway, see here for more balance.

I wonder whether these chaps will be showing up at your pro-war demo tomorrow?

The message of these demos isn’t “Stop the violence in Gaza.” Rather it’s “If you think Israel has a right to a secure existence, then fuck off. We want nothing to do with you.”

Boogski – so are you saying tomorrows march is against the war? Really? Care to point me to a statement to that effect.

So, is it possible to have a decent march against this war?

I am not saying you would agree with them, but just folk that wouldn’t be beyond the pale?

Since benj has already conceded that Israel is within its rights, legally and morally, to act against Hamas, I reckon his march would be rather heavy on nuance.

No, Gene. It’s stop the violence in Gaza. There are extreme elements, but reasonable people understand that they are not representative.

You articulately describe the morphing of supposed anti-Zionism into actual anti-semitism.

Hamas has of course recently called for the worldwide murder of Jewish children.

The Met were once described as “institutionally racist”. Isn’t it time we dispensed with the illusion that “Zionist” = supporter of Israel and faced the fact that much of the “new” left (ie, that section that has decoupled from socialism and exchanged universal values of equality for cultural relativism) has become “culturally anti-semitic”?

I’m sure not all “new” leftists are necessarily anti-semitic – in the same way that the majority of coppers were not racist – but the assumptions that frame their movement has essentially become so.

People ar being murdered and we get this mindless shit!!!!!!!! out of 50, 000 there will be some idiots…but lets just be selective

hundreds of children are being murdered and the best harrys place can coome up with is this shit?????

HP has been discussing the situation in Israel for quite a while now. Keep up old boy!

Here’s an interesting read:

The 21st Century Total War Against Israel and the Jews
by Manfred Gerstenfeld

Part 1
http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-038-gerstenfeld.htm

Part 2
http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-039-gerstenfeld.htm

AND

July 7 ringleader linked to Tel Aviv suicide bombers (2005)
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/012168.php

“You articulately describe the morphing of supposed anti-Zionism into actual anti-semitism. ”

Yes.

You even see it happening amongst some of the commenters on this blog.

I think thats why they are allowed to comment, although frankly I dont know how the mods have the stomach for it.

mattG

Some interesting reads:

July 7 ringleader linked to Tel Aviv suicide bombers
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/012168.php

and

The 21st Century Total War Against Israel and the Jews

Part 1
http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-038-gerstenfeld.htm

Part 2
http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-039-gerstenfeld.htm

HP has been discussing the situation in Israel for quite a while now. Keep up old boy

Yeah like justifying the murder of scores of policemen in Gaza…

Boogski – so are you saying tomorrows march is against the war? Really? Care to point me to a statement to that effect.

What part of “Peace for the People of Israel and Gaza” is pro-war, TheIrie?

Protests in support of Islamism or Arab countries are irrelevant because neither Islamism nor Arabia is democratic. If their own regimes don’t take any notice of the person in the street, why on earth should anybody else?

Some interesting reads:

July 7 ringleader linked to Tel Aviv suicide bombers

and

The 21st Century Total War Against Israel and the Jews

Part 1

Part 2

Yeah like justifying the murder of scores of policemen in Gaza…

You’re right, justification isn’t needed.

Yeah like justifying the murder of scores of policemen in Gaza…

So you admit you know that HP has been talking about the situation at least. That’s a start at least

Yes, Boogski, its Orwellian – peace through war. Find me some statement in support of an immediate ceasefire from this group and I’ll conceed your point. On the other hand, if you look at the Board of Deputies (who are organising it) website, there are plenty of statements in support of Israels illegal actions.

saeed: I am glad that you have voluntarized yourself to come to Sderot and put a smile on the faces of our children. Call me when you get to Ben Gurion’s airport.

And an aplause for him, please!

TheIriot

“I wonder whether these chaps will be showing up at your pro-war demo tomorrow?”

Has it even crossed your mind, genius, that the BNP might deliberately try to stir things up at a time such as this?

I understand that you are anti-zionist. I believe you are also quite horrendously anti-semitic.

But your ignorance is staggering.

Oh…and to answer you f**ing stupid attempt at being clever; they have not been invited and if they did turn up they would not be very welcome.

Pratt.

mattG

Boogski – so are you saying tomorrows march is against the war? Really? Care to point me to a statement to that effect.

I think they are more pro-Israel than pro-war, but these two may be the same thing depending on your point of view

Well Boogski, I guess the pro-Israeli demo you refer to could be for peace, since the press release at the Board of Deputies website does not mention war at all, or the Israeli military. So perhaps it’s just a bad dream I’m having.

Oh, good job, The Whiney, linking to that lunatic Greenstein to demonstrate your rationality.

Tim, I’m going to steal that comment.

saeed: I am glad that you have voluntarized yourself to come to Sderot and put a smile on the faces of our children. Call me when you get to Ben Gurion’s airport.

And an aplause for him, please!
are you not even ashamed of what your gov. is doing???? first you starve them, then bomb them?????

No, Gene. It’s stop the violence in Gaza. There are extreme elements, but reasonable people understand that they are not representative.

Indeed. And that explains the presence of people waving Israeli and Palestinian flags to indicate their support for two states living in peace. What’s that? Never mind.

Cupid Stunt at Al Guardian says its time to boycott Israel http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/naomi-klein-boycott-israel

harrys place is getting desperate…even moderates like Ed Husain and Asim Siddiqui are laying into israel for its latest action…

saeed: you don’t know how the children of Sderot are waiting for you. When I told them that you were coming, one of them took my hand and put it to his heart and said: אני אוהב את דוד סאיד.
I almost cried.

I am more concerned about the potential clash between the protest in Trafalgar square tomorrow and this one….http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/who-is-ht/htb-national-events/action-for-gaza-gaza-crisis-march-to-the-arab-embassies.html

Our Scottish friend Mick Napier led a similar demonstration in Edinburgh today (where it’s blowing a Force 10 gale and lashing rain BTW) claiming ‘10,000′ marched, and that the trail of destruction in Gaza leads directly back to Gordon Brown…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/4214360/Three-arrests-at-Gaza-demo-in-London.html

Go figure!

the children of Sderot

don’t try to make out you’re the victim…you’re not…the victims are the Gazans…hush yourself…

Saeed, you are so right! I think these people are right to support terrorism and be antisemitic, don’t you? What were your chants at the ‘peace’ rally then?

the children of Sderot

how many of your kids have died??? won’t you even express sorrow for the amount of gazan children killed

I always find these demos amusing. The banners indicate the complete impotence of the protestors and my pleasure is their pain. They are offensive and so I always imagine the great hurt that has been inflicted upon their psyche by a tiny nation of Jews who they hate so much.

1.8billion Muslim brothers they realise they control nothing and are the perennial war losers.

They are that other team who makes up the Harlem Globetrotters Show, destined to be the losing stooges.

The impression they make on the public is that you will get more of the same if there is anything in the whole Ummah we don’t like. Losers, failures, society dross, criminal haters with alien concepts of justice.

(I can’t do any more hyperbole at the moment)

What were your chants at the ‘peace’ rally then?

Peace to all men…a two state solution…

Fair enough Saeed.

It’s absolutely terrible that children have suffered from this adults war. They always have done throughout history. Just look at WWII. Whole families, babies were put in to gas chambers by other ‘human beings’.

Naomi Klein is a typical champagne socialist whose husband, Avi Lewis, works for Al Jeezeha. You think she is a numb twat you should hear him.

if you look at the Board of Deputies (who are organising it) website, there are plenty of statements in support of Israels illegal actions.

Where?

hundreds of children are being murdered and the best harrys place can coome up with is this shit?????

BRILLIANT!!!! The Matzo’s are going to be wonderful this year. Maybe enough for the Chumantashen without another harvest.

__________

OK Shitface, please tell us where these murders are taking place. Is it Darfur, or in Iraq with its daily Muslim Kills Muslim Again strategy.

You have obviously been highly selective in what you’ve shown.

Well either David T censored the “We Love All Jews as Brothers” and “Go Go Israel and take Hamas” or he left out the “Go back to the ovens” and “The only good Jew is a Dead Jew” banners.

Like to suggest which one’s he left out?

Maven…everyone hates you on this forum go home…as for Darfur and other places where human rights are being abused I have criticised them and protested against them…its nice you can call someone ’shitface’…shows your class!!!

Why do so many of these peace marches, where were they when Hamas was shelling Israel, end up with the violence?

A full-fledged violent neo-Nazi demonstration on the streets of London (praised by the state broadcaster) – I assume that those posters who have claimed there’s no widespread antisemitism in Britain will now retract that claim.
Of course, much of it is imported. The lunacy of appeasing antisemitic Islamist thugs has borne the fruits predicted by many us for years.
Will there be a public backlash against this appeasement? I hope so. Millions have seen on their screens the thuggery of those pushing the ‘religion of peace’ down our collective throats.
If there isn’t, and the appeasement continues, this country is truly fucked.

One day, I hope, these people will look back and feel deep shame

Unfortunately, psychopaths rarely feel ashamed of their actions.

Indeed. And that explains the presence of people waving Israeli and Palestinian flags to indicate their support for two states living in peace. What’s that? Never mind.

Gene,

Would you agree that the AWL is the least kooky of the commie sects in the UK?

Well, have you seen the price of their bloody coffee? No that is a disgrace

Fuck off. You are neither clever nor amusing.

Not because it ‘is real’ but because they don’t want to write the name of the country whose existence they refuse to accept. So I was told

Interesting. I always thought it was illiteracy, but have noticed for a long time that it’s spelled like that mostly by assorted antisemites and neo-Nazis of various religions, some of them even the religion of ‘peace’. I’ve found it to be a dead giveaway.

Saeed, may I advise you to become acquainted with the English language so that if you get into a fight with someone and kill them and then get interviewed by the police then you will want to be pleading manslaughter and not murder. Anyway, your barrister will explain.

Boogski, it’s the ranting Saeed you need to say it to.

I would like to hear more from “A Police Officer” who commented earlier. I often wonder what the coppers think of these scumbags.

http://www.boardofdeputies.org.uk/page.php/COMMUNNAL_LEADERS_CALL_FOR_SOLIDARITY/256/103/3

Saeed: I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I actually felt fear because I am close to the range of the rockets, but the fact that you are coming, and sharing with us, Israelis your courage, makes me feel better already.
I have recorded a small video from my daughter to you. I know it is nothing, but you should see her smile.
You are our hero.

Ups, I forgot. Silly me. For you, Saeed, giborenu!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUl7roR863s

Boogski, it’s the ranting Saeed you need to say it to.

I wasn’t having a go at Gene, Nearly O. Click the link Gene posted above and you’ll see what I mean. As commies go, the AWL is the least obnoxious of the lot, IMO.

Today’s mass demo in London, and smaller demonstrations throughout the rest of the UK, were a resounding statement in support of the Palestinians by those standing on the side of humanity against the barbarism of occupation and ethnic cleansing.

Tomorrow’s counter-demo against the racists who support the occupation and theft of another people’s land should be equally emphatic.

A full-fledged violent neo-Nazi demonstration on the streets of London (praised by the state broadcaster)

Really? When did this happen?

Boogski,
It was your comment about Sunny I was referring to.
Sorry, I wasn’t very clear.

Hey Saeed, you seem to know what you are talking about (smirk….)

How many Hamas are dead. Because Hamas keep reporting big numbers of dead people but refuse to say how many are killers who are now killed. Out of 800 my guess is 600. That OK by you?

Of course, if Hamas actually told the truth then the BBC would have to report it and then the whole game would be changed.

“600 Hamas Terrorists killed” is actually very good publicity for Israel, don’t you think?

TheIrie,

The rally, together with a parallel event in Manchester’s Albert Square, will bring together communities from all over the country who will express their solidarity with Israel and their desire for a peaceful and sustainable resolution to the conflict.

Again, how is this pro-war?

Which part, Herman?
Some brainless BBC dimbo praised the ‘peaceful demonstration, which sadly was marred by some violence’.
Haven’t any of these people an IQ in two figures?

I wonder whether these chaps will be showing up at your pro-war demo tomorrow?

If they do, i can tell you now that they wil be ostracized and kicked away.

Fabian, I suspect the mouth-foaming Saeed will fail to spot the irony.

Saeed, here is a little explanation for you. Read it very slowly, looking up the really difficult words like ‘with’ , ‘the’ and ‘and’:

D O N ‘ T
F U CK
W I T H
I S R A E L (notice how it should be spelled?)
A N D
Y O U
W O N ‘ T
S U F F E R
T H E
C O N S E Q U E N C E S

there are plenty of statements in support of Israels illegal actions

Care to point out these ‘illegal’ acts, with chapter and verse? You ran back to mummy last time I asked you.

I attended this rally. There were a bunch of loons there. There were a whole bunch of children there maybe 9 or 10 years old or so chanting,

From the River to the Sea

Palestine We’ll Set you Free

I went up to a group of them and asked if they knew what river. The response was that giggled and said they did not, but “it rhymes.”

‘Free Palestine’ – you say it was a “resounding statement in support of the Palestinians” – but which ones, Fatah or Hamas? – Hamas kills Fatah member. You have no credibility if you back both sides. Tomorrow’s event by contrast condemns Hamas terror.

Boogski,
It was your comment about Sunny I was referring to.
Sorry, I wasn’t very clear.

Ah, got it. Well I think there’s still hope for Sunny. Saeed on the other hand…

HP, presenting them all as loonies is only half the work.

Israel’s own rationale also has to be put forth: this is a war to defend the pre-1967 borders. Anyone who supports a two state solution should either support this war or offer an alternative.

Maven…everyone hates you on this forum go home…as for Darfur and other places where human rights are being abused I have criticised them and protested against them…its nice you can call someone ’shitface’…shows your class!!!

I AM at home! How about you? Where’s “Home”. You got a British passport (I am an equal opportunity offense provider as I didn’t like teh implication “go home”. What was it? “Go Home Jew to the gas Chamber”?)

I am not suprised that “everyone hates me” because I can be a very nasty person – but people like you, of your ilk and persuasion bring out the worst in me.

I have no class but if you prefer I call a pretentious word like “FuckWit”, more middle to upper than working-class derision then please accept my apologies for not paying you due respect by calling you a ShitFace. Sowwy!

Anyway, I am not sure of your grasp on English when you misuse the word “murder” and yet you can distinguish that ShitFace is an insult. I was hoping to get that one past you. How about FuckWit? Does that make you feel better than ShitFace?

Boogski – anyone can say the word “peace”. If, by peace, they mean an immediate ceasefire, fair enough. If, by peace, they mean wiping out Gaza, and given that Israel now says its going to step up, not down, its actions, this is basically what is happening, then this is not a meaningful peace. If you say “Everyone should support Israel’s determination to weaken the hold of the terrorists.”, as the organisers have said, while Israel is dropping leaflets saying that is going to escalate its actions, you are pro-war.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/10/abbas-gaza-israel-truce

Nearly Oxfordian said:”A full-fledged violent neo-Nazi demonstration on the streets of London (praised by the state broadcaster) – ”

I haven’t yet seen the BBC reports so I cannot comment at the moment on that.

“I assume that those posters who have claimed there’s no widespread antisemitism in Britain will now retract that claim.”

If they have any honour they would do.

Of course, much of it is imported.
“The lunacy of appeasing antisemitic Islamist thugs has borne the fruits predicted by many us for years.”

Sadly true. I can recall having conversations with supporters of Galloway on another Left site and being told I was being stupid and racist for showing concern that he and others like him were encouraging a dangerous shift in politics by garnering votes on the grounds of religion. Antisemitic thugs have been appeased by the Govt for what reasons I don’t know but the time to stand up to them is now.

“Will there be a public backlash against this appeasement? I hope so.”

Sadly the main winners out of this Islamist thuggery may well be the extreme nationalist right. The economy is going to shit and we have what they will call a fifth column within. The ordinary Muslim who keeps his or her head down will be one of the losers if that happens. However thats not to say that there shouldn’t be action against Islamist thugs but I dont’ hold out much hope of such action from the Govt.

“Millions have seen on their screens the thuggery of those pushing the ‘religion of peace’ down our collective throats.
If there isn’t, and the appeasement continues, this country is truly fucked.”

Although I have theological issues with Islam and Christianity for me they are peaceful theological differences and I wouldn’t want to tar all Muslims with the same brush as the Islamists. However I do agree that if the Govt continues to appease clerical fascists there will be serious problems.

Fine. If by egg you mean an onion, and given that the toaster is hot, I say fair enough.

Tomorrow’s protest:

1) Will not advocate violence
2) Is backed by the Jewish community
3) One of the main messages is ‘free Gaza’ as was the case on Thursday night.
4) Will advocate a peaceful solution.
5) Will show thousands of Jewish and non-Jewish people waving British flags along with Israeli flags.
6) Will not involve any violence or extreme flags/messages.

A contrast indicative of the current state of the Middle East.

Hamas’s raison d’etre is to be in a state of war with Israel. There can be ceaefires, truces, lulls. People can run out of ammo. There won’t be peace.

And an aplause for him, please!
are you not even ashamed of what your gov. is doing???? first you starve them, then bomb them?????

Not clear bout this. Are you suggesting that Israel should first bomb them and THEN starve them?

Look, despite me having a bit of fun at your expense there is no-one on this board who feels pleased at the deaths of Gaza civilians, although I think it right to celebrate Hamas deaths as its justice.

You will have seen that most posters here, including me, want a Palestinian state. But Hamas are a cancer and unfortunately when you operate on cancer you also remove some good cells and flesh. No-one here is celebrating that Israel had to take this action and the results are so terrible.

We all pray that it ends quickly and positively with Hamas removed.

OK? So, if I was harsh on you I apologise but frankly you laid yourself open for what you got.

Love & Peace, Maven

What about Palestinian flags then Sam?

Phil Stein, are you the Phil Stein I knew from AJ6?

The only appropriate response to all this vile Anti-Semitism is not just protest in words here – but to organise Everybody Who believes in Freedom in The tens of thousands Tomorrow morning to Stand in Solidarity with The Democratic State Of Israel !

Sunday 11th January – 10:40 am – Trafalgar Square .

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9i57PrvlCWo&NR=1

Watch Hamas destroy a wedding party because of the music ..

TheIrie,

I think I’ll just defer to Herman who said:

I think they are more pro-Israel than pro-war, but these two may be the same thing depending on your point of view

Your view is that pro-Israel = pro-war. My view is not.

Still running scared of answering my questio, I see.
So it was just the usual antisemitic lie, right?

OK? So, if I was harsh on you I apologise but frankly you laid yourself open for what you got.

again…pure class…

‘The only appropriate response to all this vile Anti-Semitism is not just protest in words here – but to organise Everybody Who believes in Freedom in The tens of thousands Tomorrow morning to Stand in Solidarity with The Democratic State Of Israel !

Sunday 11th January – 10:40 am – Trafalgar Square .’

Be careful though. A similar rally was held in Oslo on Thursday, by the main opposition party to the current Labour government. But this was disrupted by counter-demonstrations by pro-Palestinian groups and several arrests were made. There were attacks made on the pro-Israeli demonstrators but fortunately nothing serious.

Today a pro-Palestinian rally was held in Oslo which turned nasty. The crowd attacked several MacDonalds on a rumour, sent by text, apparently from Sweden, that the day’s taking were to go to Israel!

There has been nothing seen like this in Oslo in over 20 years.

One report I read said that Dr Mads Gilbert, the Norwegian surgeon currently in Gaza helping the wounded, had been sending messages to the rally organisers telling them about the plight of Gazans and encouraging them to ‘protest’ today.

HP covered Mads Gilbert’s shadowy connections the other day.

Can I ask some of you (and I don’t mean saeed or TheIrie who are behaving very well) not to act like A BUNCH OF RANTING LUNATICS.

Is that ok?

I am not suprised that “everyone hates me” because I can be a very nasty person – but people like you, of your ilk and persuasion bring out the worst in me.

what a peace loving guy who condems violence…wants to see a two-state solution israel secure in its borders.. a free,secular democratic palestinian state…

Hot: HP makes the Daily Mail. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1110573/Violent-Gaza-protests-reveal-gentle-civilised-Britain-changed-ugly-indeed.html

I suppose a Mazeltov to David T, Gene, Brett and Neil D is in order.

(Apologies for anyone I forgot)

Oh, of course a shower of assholes will show up tomorrow to disrupt the peaceful demo. That’s what reeking, pus-filled assholes do.

… which is yet another reason NOT to treat saeed, or indeed TheIrie with such extreme discourtesy.

You bring discredit on yourselves, by acting like yahoos.

Israelis and Jews are not Nazis.
Nor are the Arabs or Hamas.
Mendicants on either side use this epitaph.
Both are led by intolerant fools who believe that a society/state should be based on religion .
All medieval European states were the same.
Jewish and Muslim faiths do not believe in a Neo Darwinism approach to race, the mentally ill and the poor. That was the core philosophy of the Nazis.

The official position of the BoD is a two-state solution. The official position of Fatah is a two-state solution. The (un)official position is for a two-state position.

Hamas aims for the destruction of Israel. Hamas aims for the destruction of Fatah. Hams aims for the destruction of many Arab states.

What is being overlooked here, and replaced by the crudest of Israel v Gazan, Israel v Arab and ” Jew” v “Muslim”, is the fact that Israel is doing the dirty work for many an Arab/Muslim state who is more than happy for Iran to get a good kicking.

Unfortunately, understanding the intricacies and politics of the Middle East is overlooked by many; but most disturbingly, is the sight of a bunch of Brits who go around thinking it’s cool to give Hamas its backing. They have no idea the implications of their words or actions (maybe they should ask the families of the Gazan Palestinians’ murdered by Hamas for being trade unionists, members of Fatah, etc.).

I can well understand the presence of Islamist Muslims on the march, the misfits who will never integrate in the UK and who are out to impose their ghoulish death cults on Londoners or whereever they happen to have been allowed to gather in ghettoes; I can also well understand the presence of the non-Muslim misfits – communists, marxists, trots or whatever – who are out to impose their noodle headed politics on Londoners or whoever is unfortunate enough to get in the way, all this garish rainbow of of failures united around Jew-hating is understandable, but what on earth are the Quakers with their fine tradition of decent mindedness doing in the mixture?

“The (un)official position is for a two-state position.” should read the (un)offical position of the majority of Arab states is for a two-state solution.

The Quakers are pacifists and oppose all war, regardless of the parties involved.
Outside Friends House in London you will often see messages of calls for co-existence with pictures of both Israel’s and Palestine’s flags.
I am not a pacifist in the same way, but they have nothing but the utmost respect from me.

what a peace loving guy who condems violence…wants to see a two-state solution israel secure in its borders.. a free,secular democratic palestinian state…

Saeed, I am always turned-off by people who use the word ‘murder’ in its false context because so many people I argue with use the word “murder” to emote themsleves and others into saying things and wishing to do things that leads to danger for Jews.

My strategy is to find out what makes them tick and I do it with shock language. It telle me whether they deeply harbour hate or maybe just loose in their language and didn’t actually mean what they said.

Now, this is the first time you have articulated any sense that you want peace and a two-state settlement.

I have apologised with sincerity and you have withstood my onslaught with some dignity. You have convinced me that you may not be something or somebody I thought you might be.

I’d just say, guys, that, it was always easy for them to conjure up more demonstrators than us.

There are only 250 000 Jews in Britain, and the majority of pro-Israel demonstrators are Jews. So, as far as I am concerned, if the demonstration is like that 2002, which was between 10 and 15% of Anglo-Jewry, that’s pretty good.

The point of the demonstration, as far as I am concerned, as though it mattered, is to show that we support Israel’s right to exist, in some sense as a Jewish state, to defend and preserve herself, against those like Galloway, Tamimi, Seymour, Game, Steve Brown or whoever, who are dedicated, one way or another, to her extinction, one way, or another.

Zionism is not a dirty word and is, in some sense, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. C’est tout.

Hot: HP makes the Daily Mail.

Far out! :D

You bring discredit on yourselves

Yes, I can see how asking purveyors of antisemitic lies to put up or shut up is terribly, terribly discourteous.

Zionism is not a dirty word and is, in some sense, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people

It is not ‘in some sense’. It is. The fact that antisemites use it as a swearword reflects on them and their sewer-like minds. It doesn’t reflect in any way on Zionism, and does not detract one iota from it being the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.

I almost cried

LOL, Fabian.
But again, people who can spew hateful stuff like him and deny that Israel is the victim, are unlikely to be susceptible to irony.

On one of the facebook events for today’s march somebody has written:

“A message to the youth… control your rage!!
The embarassing scenes today were partially the fault of those who wanted to cause a scene for the WRONG reasons! Families and little kids came out today to a FAMILY event, the non-coopertaion of some ppl risked the safety of these very ppl. Not cooperating with the police does not help anyone and will prevent family demonstraters coming out in future. ”

Which I thought sounded very sensible. But then he had to go along and spoil it all by writing something stupid like:

“There is a place and a time if you want to fight… that is place is GAZA!!”

Fabian: You have a beautiful family.

The response was that giggled and said they did not, but “it rhymes.”

Again: those who take small children to such demos should be investigated by social services.

“We must do everything to insure they never return. The old will die and the young will forget. We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters.”
David Ben Gurion First Prime Minister of Israel, 1949

That is zionism I am anti zionist but not ant semitic…
You people are ill informed and hateful. Hamas was helped to power by Israel to counter Arafat just as Fatah were then armed, funded and trained by the USA to fight with Hamas. This is well documented with US State Dept evidence.. I only hate ignorance not people.

A family event … yes … an antisemitic demo as a ‘family event’ … what a very sensible person.

It’s understandable why Saeed should be upset by the killing of innocent children, and why Fabian and others should respond as they do. Has anybody mentioned the TUCs Appeal for donations to be channelled through the Palestinian General Federation of Trade Unions and the International Transport Workers’ Federation to be used for mediacla aid? The details are on the ‘JustGiving.com’ website, under the title ‘Give for Gaza’.

I am anti zionist but not ant semitic

Do tell us which other nation you don’t want to have a free national home.
It’s just the Jews, innit?

No it isn’t.

Hamas was not suppressed, and was permitted to fund raise in the days before it declared its aims, in the 1988 Covenant. It presented itself initially as a quietist religious movement.

At the time that Hamas began operating, Fatah was murdering Jews all over the world.

Is your argument that Islamist movements should always be suppressed, even when they are not violent, for fear they will ultimately engage in genocide?

Why doesn’t the Euston Organization call for a pro-Israel demonstration to show them up? Norm Geras could be the keynote speaker. Here’s a couple of feasible slogans:

1. “Invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity”

2. “Nuke Gaza like it was Hiroshima. Peace through war”

3. “V.S. Naipul for King of England”

“I only hate ignorance not people.”

Unless they happen to be ‘Zionists’, howsoever you define them. And do you hate your own ignorance as much as you hate that you allege in us?

Lucia

Ben Gurion never said that

Why do you anti-Zionists never check your quotes before you post them?

I think that many people at HP, rightly, get a bit annoyed by some people who constantly argue in bad faith or play it cute (TheIrie is just one example), and when they see this terrible conflict used for a bit of Jew baiting as with “lucia”, it is rather aggravating

just throw that alleged Ben-Gurion quote into google and you’ll see that it pops out, at Stormfront and other neo-nazi web sites

it is just a pile of neo-nazi trash

Lucia, you forgot to mention that Israel masterminded 9/11 and that it’s responsible for the current economy shit.

Yasser Arafat:

“We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. . . . We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem.”

*waves at lucia*

Lucia: “I only hate ignorance not people”

I guess that makes you a self-hater then, for posting false quotes.

You are in good company.

Fool.

Nuke Gaza like it was Hiroshima. Peace through war”

Could create as many problems as it solves. The fall-out would be a danger to Israelis.

And don’t forget that the moon landings were faked in the Negev, Kompressor.

““We must do everything to insure they never return. The old will die and the young will forget. We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters.”
David Ben Gurion First Prime Minister of Israel, 19″

I take it you mean, Lucia, you wish to bring to mind the Palestinian Christian and Muslim refugees of the 1947-1949 war.

Fine. But we have kept in mind the dispossession Christians such as you have said was our just lot for our alleged rejection of Jesus and the prophets for 2000 years.

We have longer memories than you.

Lucia doesn’t want to bring anything ‘to mind’. She is just randonly quoting antisemitic fabrications from dodgy websites.
3 will get you 11 that she’ll start ranting about the Protocols any time soon. Or darling Penny will.

Apparently we Jews caused the French Revolution, too (according to the Hamas Covenant). I’d love to know how.

“The Metropolitan Police says 20,000 people marched but the BBC estimates the figure could be as high as 50,000.
It is estimated there were several hundred police officers dealing with around 200 protesters outside the embassy.”

The BBC are now even estimating numbers on demonstrations!

Everything we read about this current war is based on problematic information. Hamas learned during the 2006 war that Israel can be “defeated” by atrocity stories. Israel learnt that this conflict with Iran’s surrogates is no longer a game and Hamas’ promise to teach Israel a military lesson is proving to be another tragic miscalculation.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424906921&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

I last went on a demonstration in 1982 and got put off by the barbarism of the anti-semitism exuding from opponents of Israel in Lebanon. It is clear that the ideology and blind faith in the outrageousness of Iran and her surrogates is becoming embedded in the nastiness of the Left. The horrific hatred illustrated by todays demonstration has to be taken seriously. I still believe that it is a manifestation of a small minority who willingly digest any thing which fuels their a priori hatred of the Jewish State. The dominant message of todays demonstration is expressed in those crazy flags and banners and anyone associated with this march has to accept that they are implicated in a grotesque act of ant-semitism.

Unsurprisingly, Israel and her supporters will not be diverted from this watershed moment in history. A victory for Israel is vital to the ultimate defeat of the Iranian Revolution and will give the world a small chance to reverse a very dark period in history.

I have a question. What the Mcfuck is wrong with young people in France? Have they lost their minds?

What, no Neturei Karta?

Too antisemitic even for them?

No, too far to walk on shabbat from stamford Hill (and other areas where these people might live).

Did our grandfathers really risk all fighting fascism only to have their grandchildren grow up in a country where people parade around taunting Jews with swastikas?

Let’s see if the BBC has its own estimate of tomorrow’s pro-Israel numbers which is more than twice the Police estimate.

Not only does the BBC have a protected monopoly; not only is it regulated by itself; but now it seems it can pay people – from my licence fee – to count numbers in demonstrations.

Pleae Mr Cameron – Privatise it as soon as you are elected in 2010. The BBC is a f*****g disgrace.

I mean great-grandchildren of course.

RE: The picture posted of the placard comparing Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto

Gaza is the same in nature to the Warsaw ghetto but not extent. Palestinians are not being rounded up and put in gas chambers, but what makes it similar is what happened to the Jewish people in that time which was the seizing of land, being forced from property, torture and bureaucracy – control used in a demeaning way over the smallest task.

On top of that building a wall around them – and that is precisely what the Israeli government is doing. In doing so it is building a political ghetto. I don’t think it can escape that conclusion.

I like BBC nature shows. They’re quite good at that sort of thing.

Gaza is the same in nature to the Warsaw ghetto but not extent.

In other words, it’s not the same. Now, about Bin Laden and Guevara.

In other words, it’s not the same. Now, about Bin Laden and Guevara.

And Budapest 1956 and Prague 1968.

Why are so many dozy middle class types marching with these cunts?

what the fuck is happening?

I don’t think it is fair to compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto. A much better comparison would be with the Pine Ridge reservation in South Dakota, keeping in mind of course that the USA does provide an eyedropper’s worth of aid for the people whose land was stolen.

from: http://www.linkcenterfoundation.org/id24.html

Housing Conditions and Homelessness

* The small BIA/Tribal Housing Authority homes on the Pine Ridge Reservation are overcrowded and scarce, resulting in many homeless families who often use tents or cars for shelter. Many families live in old cabins or dilapidated mobile homes and trailers.

* According to a 2003 report from South Dakota State University, the majority of the current Tribal Housing Authority homes were built from 1970-1979. The report brings to light that a great percentage of that original construction by the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) was “shoddy and substandard.” The report also states that 26% of the housing units on the Reservation are mobile homes, often purchased or obtained (through donations) as used, low-value units with negative-value equity.

* Even though there is a large homeless population on the Reservation, most families never turn away a relative no matter how distant the blood relation. Consequently, many homes often have large numbers of people living in them.

* In a recent case study, the Tribal Council estimated a need for at least 4,000 new homes in order to combat the homeless situation.

* There is an estimated average of 17 people living in each family home (a home which may only have two to three rooms). Some larger homes, built for 6 to 8 people, have up to 30 people living in them.

* Over-all, 59% of the Reservation homes are substandard.

* Over 33% of the Reservation homes lack basic water and sewage systems as well as electricity.

* Many residents must carry (often contaminated) water from the local rivers daily for their personal needs.

* Some Reservation families are forced to sleep on dirt floors.

* Without basic insulation or central heating in their homes, many residents on the Pine Ridge Reservation use their ovens to heat their homes.

* Many Reservation homes lack adequate insulation. Even more homes lack central heating.

* Periodically, Reservation residents are found dead from hypothermia (freezing).

* It is reported that at least 60% of the homes on the Pine Ridge Reservation need to be burned to the ground and replaced with new housing due to infestation of the potentially-fatal Black Mold, Stachybotrys. There is no insurance or government program to assist families in replacing their homes.

* 39% of the homes on the Pine Ridge Reservation have no electricity.

* The most common form of heating fuel is propane. Wood-burning is the second most common form of heating a home although wood supplies are often expensive or difficult to obtain.

* Many Reservation homes lack basic furniture and appliances such as beds, refrigerators, and stoves.

* 60% of Reservation families have no land-line telephone. The Tribe has recently issued basic cell phones to the residents. However, these cell phones (commonly called commodity phones) do not operate off the Reservation at all and are often inoperable in the rural areas on the Reservation or during storms or wind.

* Computers and internet connections are very rare.

* Federal and tribal heat assistance programs (such as LLEAP) are limited by their funding. In the winter of 2005-2006, the average one-time only payment to a family was said to be approximately $250-$300 to cover the entire winter. For many, that amount did not even fill their propane heating tanks one time.

Ok, so intemperate and racist language is used on an, err, intemperate and racist demo. Get over it! Now let’s talk about the real issues, namely Prince Harry opening his intemperate, racist gob. Twat.

Boogski

I like BBC nature shows too. In fact I would pay a cable subscription to see them. But I am not given the choice. I have to pay for their army of demonstration auditors as well – whether I want to or not. And for Jeremy Bowen’s blatant bias. And for all their other anti-Israel bias.

These marchers are scum.

Shabba Goy

Yes

Chas N-B

They are worse than that

I’m sure Penny is aware that American Indians are free to leave the reservation and join the rest of us poor schlubs.

An interesting post is descending into “Modern Britain is so rubbish, let’s emigrate” and “Privatise the BBC” because of all the miserabilists that haunt this blog! Have they all come over from the Daily Mail website?

Not only is “lucia” posting a well known fabricated quote from David Ben Gurion which originates from anti-semitic web sites, but this is what Ben Gurion really said in 1947– his key speech on the need for co-operation on equal terms between the Jews and Arabs :

This is our native land; it is not as birds of passage that we return to it. But it is situated in an area engulfed by Arabic-speaking peoples, mainly followers of Islam. Now, if ever, we must do more than make peace with them; we must achieve collaboration and alliance on equal terms.

Remembering what Arab delegations from Palestine and its neighbors say in the General Assembly and in other places, talk of Arab-Jewish amity sounds fantastic, for the Arabs do not wish it, they will not sit at the same table with us, they want to treat us as they do the Jews of Baghdad, Cairo and Damascus.

That is the attitude officially proclaimed, and it is not to be scoffed at; considerable forces in the Arab realm, and beyond, are behind it. Neither should we overrate it, or be panicked by it. As Jews, and more so as Zionists, we must forego facile optimism and barren despondency. Basic facts are our allies and no concatenation of events can shake or alter them: the tragedy of the Jews, the desolation of the Land, our unbreakable bond with it, our creativity – they have brought us thus far, whether other things helped or hindered.

There are basic facts in the Arab realm also, not only transient ones, and understanding of them should blow away our pessimism. They are the historical needs of the Arabs and of their States. A people’s needs are not always articulate, its spokesmen may not always be concerned for them, but they cannot be stifled for long, eventually they force their swelling way out into expression and satisfaction.

History has been harsh to us, perhaps, setting burdensome conditions which complicate our homecoming; but it has set conditions too which, in the final accounting, will not only allow but will compel Arab and Jew to work together, because they need and complement each other. Just two examples. Egypt is the biggest country in the Arab world and in the Arab League. More than three-quarters of its population are fellahin with an average monthly income of a pound sterling; nine-tenths of the fellahin are disease-ridden, all but five percent illiterate. You cannot go on forever feeding this people on anti-Jewish incitement.

Iraq is thrice as large as Britain; of its 450,000 square kilometers only 67,000 are tilled; after twenty-five years of independence, 85 percent of the population are illiterate, half are infected and there is one doctor for every 8,500 persons. And this is among the richest countries in the world, watered by two rivers – and what rivers! An anti-Jewish diet will not do indefinitely in Iraq either.

I will not discuss ostensibly independent Trans-Jordan, its poverty and neglect many of us have visited it and know.

A final fact. From our work in Palestine, from the society we are constructing, our economy and science, our culture and humanity, our social and fiscal order, and from no other source, must enlightenment come to our neighbors, for if they do not learn from us and labor with us, it is with strangers, potent and tyrannous, that they will find themselves partnered.

They in turn have much to give us, they are blessed with what we lack. Great territories, ample for themselves and their children’s children, even if they are far more prolific than they are today. We do not covet their expanses nor will we penetrate them – for we shall fight to end Diaspora in Arab lands as fiercely as we fought to end it in Europe, we want to be assembled wholly in our own Land. But if this region is to expand to the full, there must be reciprocity, there can be mutual aid – economic, political and cultural – between Jew and Arab. That is the necessity which will prevail, and the daily fulminations of their leaders should not alarm us unduly – they do not echo the real interests of the Arab peoples.

Come what may, we will not surrender our right to free Aliyah, to rebuild our shattered Homeland, to claim statehood. If we are attacked, we will fight back. But we will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and establish a Cupertino gainful to both. It is now, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and progress of sovereign equals.

Interesting to see that BBC online is currently calling the demonstration ‘a call for peace’ in its headline. On what possible basis??? I have perused your photos and the BBC’s own photos and I for one have and not found a single solitary call for peace!! Just a lot of highly insulting carnards about massacres, genocides and the new Nazis… And brainy people like Oliver Kamm refuse to accept the bias of the BBC!

Boogski

I like BBC nature shows too. In fact I would pay a cable subscription to see them. But I am not given the choice. I have to pay for their army of demonstration auditors as well – whether I want to or not. And for Jeremy Bowen’s blatant bias. And for all their other anti-Israel bias.

I know, Bro. I know. You have my sympathy.

Have they all come over from the Daily Mail website?

Daily Mail seems to have an anti-Islamist policy and a bunch of wild-eyed Muslims spouting hatred and injuring police is right in their ball-park.

I suspect that the anti-Jewish part of the article is a side issue for The Mail but I’m sure Melanie Phillips has had an influence on the article. A lot of it is cobbled from Mel’s blos, as it states.

Judy, thank you.

But since when did “Lucia” and the other antisemites ever hold the truth in any kind of regard?

Anyone pitching up Albert Sq, Manchester tomorrow for the anti-Hamas, pro-Israel demo? I am.

Penny that is an excellent comparison because just as you continually deny the Palestinians agency by ignoring the thugs who run Gaza you ignore the culpability of the incompetent leadership of the Pine Ridge Reservation.

Sorry, I forgot to say that that was a quote from Oona King.

What happened to S.O Muffin? Or do I need to ask?

What was in the picture on that “Spineless Swine” sign? What point was he making?

poor old harry seems upset no one was holding up any Israeli or British flags. Don’t worry old chap, that protest is tomorrow. I’m sure at least the BNP will come along with the the British flag.

Looks like it’s a photo of two men (?), their heads swathed in turbans, holding the body of an injured or dead child.

What happened to S.O Muffin? Or do I need to ask?

I don’t think there’s a geriatric battalion in the I.D.F. No need to worry.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UwxgEeEztZQ&NR=1

Well, this Gazan woman does not seem very fond of Hamas

Tony

You poor sod.

You so lack patriotism that you assume that anyone waving a British flag must be BNP.

I think you need to lie down in a darkened room for a while

Waving a Union Jack in the UK is somehow wrong but carrying the flag of Hamas and Hezbollah is ok?

WTF?

Just so you know, I’m leaving the country for 2 weeks, so I won’t be commenting for awhile. I know you’ll all miss me, but actually I’m only saying this in case I am required to “condemn” anything in the days ahead. I sincerely hope that tomorrows demo’s pass off without incident, and more importantly that when I get back to blighty this bloody mess is over.

I don’t think there’s a geriatric battalion in the I.D.F. No need to worry.

Hah! :D

No, I’m just surprised he hasn’t weighed in on this for several days. He tends to have a chilling effect when things start getting absurd. :)

Safe landings, Irie.

The Irie: Don’t worry, it’ll all be over by Christmas.

poor old tony:
you realise that the bnp is anti-semitic and not all too likely to show up at an event supporting the jewish state’s right to exist?
it’s an irony that a party that has so many sympathisers with the London bombers among its leaders (no – not with the 7/7 ones, with those in the 1940s) actually has the cheek to sport union jacks at all.
what better definition of “traitor” than “British hitlerite”

Just so you know, I’m leaving the country for 2 weeks, so I won’t be commenting for awhile. I know you’ll all miss me, but actually I’m only saying this in case I am required to “condemn” anything in the days ahead.

Nah, it normally surfaces when you’re burbling away in the thread in question or others. How would you know if you’re not reading?

“They also routinely spell Israel, ‘Isreal’.

Not because it ‘is real’ but because they don’t want to write the name of the country whose existence they refuse to accept. So I was told.”

I S R E A L What delicious irony. So neat. So true. The most practised kabbalistic anagramatist couldn’t do better.

It would not be fair to describe this as a Hamas rally. I should qualify that. Immediately before the 1980s singer, Annie Lennox was introduced to the crowd, the compere announced to the crowd:

We all support Hamas

Did this actually happen? and then lennox came out on stage to speak?! and she says (on facebook) she’s not anti-israel. what a disgrace.

O G-d, be not silent; be not quiet or still, O G-d…… Against Your people do they shrewdly take counsel, and they plot against those sheltered by You. They say “Let us go and wipe them out as a nation, so that the name of Israel will not be remembered any more”

Psalm 83

I attended this rally. There were a bunch of loons there. There were a whole bunch of children there maybe 9 or 10 years old or so chanting,

From the River to the Sea

Palestine We’ll Set you Free

I went up to a group of them and asked if they knew what river. The response was that giggled and said they did not, but “it rhymes.”

This happened in your mind, didnt it?

He insisted that these kids didn’t know what they were saying, and that they didn’t appreciate that they were calling for the annihilation of Israel.

I disagreed, and so he asked one lad which river it was. He initially said that he didn’t know, and then he said that it was the Euphrates, but that it just rhymed.

(He meant “scanned” I think)

Anyhow, later he started chanting “Israel’s gotta go”, so I think he did get the message.

Nice photos. Looks like a jolly super day out for people with nothing better to do.

David T – classic article

Zin – classic Oona.

Since most problems (health, crime, social, employment) on Pine Ridge are alcohol related, it’s not like Gaza at all.

What they do share in common are leaders that have lied, fleeced, and even executed them.

I await the pictures tomorrow of pro-war zionists and neo-nazi’s from the BNP marching together in celebration of the slaughter of muslims in Gaza

Probably wont get them on here though…..

“I went up to a group of them and asked if they knew what river. The response was that giggled and said they did not, but ‘it rhymes’.”- Bob Latchford

Why hadn’t their pupeteers explained to them which river and which sea they had been programmed to chant about? It would have taken just a few seconds. “Hamas! Hamas! Jews to the gas!” Also rhymes. Is that one better, worse or no different if it is chanted by cute, giggly 9 and 10 year olds who have no idea what it means?

Any relation to Bob Latchford the Everton striker of the 70s/80s? I expect he has more erudite things to say on the matter than his less famous namesake…

or maybe it explains a thing or three?

Anyone pitching up Albert Sq, Manchester tomorrow for the anti-Hamas, pro-Israel demo? I am.
and me. :)

Israel to extend Gaza op

PM, senior ministers determined to continue with ground offensive despite international efforts to promote ceasefire. Military sources say IDF seeks to step up pressure on Hamas, send more units into Gaza

http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3083,00.html

These anti-Israel/anti-semitic demonstrations appear to be really working.

and the BNP, they’ll be there too, shoulder to shoulder with the supporters of Israel

Bob, if it were to occur I suspect th edifference will be that the pro-Israel element will be totally opposed to the BNP and wish to have nothing to do with them.

Compare with the champagne socialists’ and greens’ approach to the Hamas element – the can’t get enough of them. It makes them feel like real revolutionaries. And helps shed them of some guilt for being so well-to-do and having such comfortable lifestyles.

I await the pictures tomorrow of pro-war zionists and neo-nazi’s from the BNP marching together in celebration of the slaughter of muslims in Gaza

* If by ‘pro war’ you mean anybody who supports a meaningful, durable and sustainable solution to this conflict that will not emerge from immediate ceasefire then YES, you will see pro-war people there.

* If by ‘zionist’ you mean anybody who supports the rights of the jewish people to their own state and country, then yes there will be plenty of those people there.

* If by ‘BNP’ you mean anybody carrying a british flag, then yes, there will be BNP there.

* If by ‘celebration of the slaughter of muslims in Gaza’ you mean demonstrate the right of Israel to defend itself after 8 years of rocket attacks then yes, there will be plenty of people there celebrating.

Rosen said:

* The stewarding was very poor. The failure to move people on past the Israeli embassy as darkness was falling and the riot police were tooling up made a confrontation almost inevitable and will give the media an excuse to skew the reports around the violence rather than the numbers, strength and demands of the demo.

Oh, I see. It was the stewardship’s fault a bunch of fucking idiots conducted themselves like a pack of hyenas.

Not one fucking word of condemnation of the violence on the streets of London from Rosen in his post. NOT ONE!

Sorry, have I missed something? I think there’d be something wrong with people who DIDN’T protest against the Israeli slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza. Why on earth shoud Gazans have to pay for the sins of the European treatment of Jews and the subsequent creation of Israel, and their subsequent subjugation and humiliation at the hands of Israel since 1948. This is the Israel which:

1. Drove Palestinians off their land in 1948, slaughtering and pillaging as they went.

2. Occupied Gaza between 1967 and 2005 and does so once more; the so-called ‘unilateral withdrawal’ was a complete sham, as the Israeli military has besieged Gaza since 2005, by air, sea and land.

3. Executed Hamas leader Sheikh Yassin, together with family members – but then again the Jewish state specialises in collective punishment – something the Nazis would no doubt have applauded (for those of you who don’t know, when a Palestinian strikes out at Israel in an attempt to liberate his people, taking his own life in the process, the IDF valiantly weighs in and destroys his family’s house -but being the IDF, they very courteously warn the relatives first, if the whim takes them; you know, the same way they leaflet Gazans from 10,000 feet, prior to bombing the shit out of them (as if they have some safe haven to escape to!). I guess all this makes it OK, from the grotesque perspective of the ‘humanitarian, democratic Jewish state’.

4. Invaded Gaza, on the false pretext that ‘millions of Israelis’ lives are gravely endangered. Yes, this decade the number of Israeli victims of Gazan homemade, inaccurate peashooters (laughably called rockets, as if they are the same as the high-tech US weaponry which the IDF spends a fortune on, all on its expense account paid for by good old Uncle Sam) has reached a staggering eight, compared with the hundreds and hundreds of Palestinian civilians murdered by the IDF week in, week out (before we even start counting the 500-odd civilians Palestinians killed by the IDF in the past fortnight). The Israelis say: “no other country would tolerate rocket attacks on their territory day in, day out” (but fail to add that no other country stole a people’s land, turfed them off into refugee camps, occupied them and then besieged them by land sea and air), and that they’ve been provoked to the point where invasion is the only response. Perhaps somebody on this site could tell me if the Gazans should just sit back and accept Israeli occupation and besiegement. You know, like the British just sat back in 1940, when the Germans were on the point of invasion; has anybody on this site heard of the Battle of Britain or that little-known chap who led the British during the war: Winston something, I think (he made a speech of some kind, if I recall my history lessons rightly):

We shall fight on the beaches,
We shall fight on the landing grounds,
We shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
We shall fight in the hills;
We shall never surrender.

The Israelis have invaded, subjugated, killed and besieged for over forty years, so I think the Gazans have a teeny bit of justification for being a bit miffed about Israel, and to fight back. Maybe it’s just the hot weather and the fact they’re just so dark-skinned and Muslim that makes them so hot-headed and irrational. Or maybe they’re just doing what any other people would do who have air in their lungs, blood in their veins, and courage in their hearts.

4. Invaded Gaza two weeks ago, and killed some 800 Palestinians, conceding just three Israeli civilians during that time (to whom the media has devoted a huge amount of coverage, told us their names, given them a moving back story, showed their funerals: in short, humanised them, individualised them); the Palestinians have been killed in such numbers that they are mere statistics: “women and children” is about as specific as it gets.

5. As an example of the grotesque imbalance in this war: nightly air raids of 80, yes 80 supersonic F-16 military jets armed to the teeth, bombing and shelling refugee camps (yes, Gazans are still refugees: 61 years and counting), against a few improvised ‘rockets’, which have barely made an impression on Israeli territory, Israel has banned all foreign journalists from Gaza. So it’s not enough just to invade, occupy, besiege and starve a territory, but Israel is denying the rest of the world from an objective account of events.

As a footnote, can anybody tell me why so many of the IDF slaught…, sorry, soldiers, are often fair-skinned, blue-eyed and in some cases speak with US accents – America of course being an almost intolerable place for Jewish people, who still live in ghettos, and have a barely discernible presence in politics, business, academia and the arts (maybe that’s why so many simply have to settle in Israel? A bit puzzling, I’m sure you’ll agree). How on earth can these people claim that their homeland is in Palestine, where all other peoples are olive-skinned, brown-eyed, and as far as I can tell, don’t speak with a Brooklyn twang when they open their mouths? For me it recalls, sadly, the British colonisation of Palestine, another unjust example of the subjugation of Arabs at the hands of white Europeans.

As a footnote, can anybody tell me why so many of the IDF slaught…, sorry, soldiers, are often fair-skinned, blue-eyed and in some cases speak with US accents …

I knew it! All along, it was just American Nazis pretending to be Jews! The bastards!

reminds me of the times before WW2. vile blatant antisemitism and support of terrorism – I would guess more than half the attendees are involved in some way in terror activities themselves. no one seems to care, nothing is being done about these people – they basically staged a pogrom, it just reinforces how important Israel is for the Jews. I’ve never wanted to make Aliyah more.

Thanks for that, Mesquito: a first-class riposte to my defence of pro-Gazan demonstrators. Good to see that the intellectual rigour of HP is holding up, at this difficult time.

On a serious note, why are so many IDF members fair-skinned, and as North European in appearance as any person you pass in the street in London? What business do they have killing Palestinians, whose stolen land they are “defending” for Israel?

Look out! The New World Order is coming

Finally. These angry nuts haven’t shut up about it for years. Maybe when it gets here they’ll find themselves another hobby. Something that doesn’t include incitement to genocide. Online poker maybe.

Not sure why people always have a pop at Starbucks…

As far as I understand it, Starbucks – according to these mixed-up fools – is run by Zionists. That might be why. I seem to recall an intertube video of some confused, kaffiyeh-wearing nut trying (unsuccessfully) to get people to stop buying coffee from there.

‘z0mg teh zIoNi$ts r teh mUrdurerz!1!!LOL buycot teh $taRbuCkz!11!LOL’

‘Oh really? Well, got to go – I need a Caffè Mocha. By the way, I like your scarf. It’s very pretty. Did your mother knit it for you? Ciao!’

Do these photos finally put an end to the notion that Britain doesn’t have itself one shit-storm of an Islamist problem?

I’m really sorry, Ashford, if Jews do not sufficiently resemble the characatures that adorn the pages of the creepy little pamphlets you read.

Ashford – you are a fucking racist – why should Israelis NOT have fair skin?

Moron

Ashford – Please explain how people with dark skins can be truly British but people with light skins cannot be truly Israeli.

You are a fucking racist

You could just submit to Islamist demands, tony. Simple enough.

Mesquito – will you answer the question, and stop insulting me. Why was Palestine colonised to provide a place for these people and their right of return? I’m not doubting that a safe homeland for the Jewish people was necessary; I just want to know why:

1. The Palestinians had to lose their homes and livelihoods to provide it. They played no part whatever in the persecution and eventual extermination of the European Jews.

2. Why the ‘Right of Return’ (from the exodus of Biblical times, some 2,000 years ago) to Palestine should be extended to Jews, many of whom are, to all intents and purposes, are European or North American, be it in appearance, customs, education, opportunities, etc., and who live free of persecution in Europe and the US, but be denied to Palestinians, who live under occupation, should they wish to resettle in lands which were stolen within living memory.

It is blatantly unjust, and if you fail to concede that, or at least understand some of the Palestinian rage that informs their attitude to Israel, then my opinion of you diminishes.

Oops! Tony is air. :D

Bertie,

I think you’ve missed the point. I don’t care what colour skin anybody has. I’m just baffled as to why a fair-skinned, blue-eyed Israeli has the Right of Return to Israel, be it from New York, Lyons, or Birmingham, whereas a brown-skinned Palestinian, in a refugee camp in Gaza, metres from modern-day Isreal, isn’t allowed to go back and live on the land which Israel stole in 1948; and if he rebels against that, he’s treated as a terrorist.

I am astonished how poor the pro-Israeli arguments are on this site. Not once have I offended anybody on this thread, yet insults to me are all that I have received.

I wonder if anybody with a bit more decorum than Mesquito or Bertie would like to provide a considered response to my original piece, and suggest why it’s wrong to support the Gazans.

Ashford, your grasp of history is deficient.

Jews started returning to the Land of Israel in larger numbers in the mid nineteenth century for various reasons, and did not displace people, they purchased land and developed it, with the permission of the Turkish rulers of the land.

The displacements occurred during the wars between Jews and Arabs, and on both sides their where displacements. The same happened at the foundation of most states from the ashes of fallen empires, just as the Greeks, Turks, Germans, Indians and Pakistanis.

The Palestinian Arabs actually did play a part in the persecution of Jews during the war, or at least their Mufti did. May have been small but it is not true to say they played no part.

The Palestinians have a right to return to a future Palestinian state, they don’t have a right of return into Israel, just as Jews don’t have a right of return to Jordan or Lebanon.

Yes, there were a few nutjobs.

How many out of 200,000, Mr. T?

And as for the point of why blue-eyed fair skinned Jews have a right of return to Israel, the simple answer is because the driving force of the right of return was to allow all Jews a right to a safe haven in the event of persecution elsewhere.

After all Hitler consigned fair-skinned, blue-eyed Jews into the crematoria, just as much as olive skinned dark-eyed Jews.

Not once have I offended anybody on this thread, yet insults to me are all that I have received.

The tongue bath you gave that murderer Yassin is offensive.

“All Must Have Spiders”

First time I’ve seen him comment here–I like him! Must be his “Spidey” senses. No whistling past the graveyard for him……

How many out of 200,000, Mr. T?

12 to 15,000 according to official stats. The Beeb says it was 20,000 max, if that.

Strange, but there are probably some people who think Ashford knows something about the history of the Middle East, and find his comments insightful and interesting. How else can one explain his confidence in saying what he says in public as if it is worth engaging with?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054158.html
“Rightists, nationalists, chauvinists and militarists are the only legitimate bon ton in town. Don’t bother us about humaneness and compassion. Only at the edges of the camp can a voice of protest be heard – illegitimate, ostracized and ignored by media coverage – from a small but brave group of Jews and Arabs. ”
Most of HP zionists and zionist supporters can find itself in this group:
“Alongside all this, rings another voice, perhaps the worst of all. This is the voice of the righteous and the hypocritical…………”

“12 to 15,000 according to official stats. The Beeb says it was 20,000 max, if that.”

Uh…POLICE stats, you mean?

The police do have something of a vested interest in making seem protests small, you know…

Ashford might also like to check out the fate of those Jews living in Gaza prior to the war of 1948 and who were slaughtered (literally) by Arab forces that regained that territory. But, then again, that would involve endowing Arabs and Palestinians the humanity of agency. something he feels he cannot do. Not an unusual trait amongst British attitudes to A-rabs, as they used to call them.

“This is the voice of the righteous and the hypocritical…………”

yugoslav, I think there is currently a discussion of the number of these types of people who turned up on Saturday’s march.

The police do have something of a vested interest in making seem protests small, you know…

Why?

It seems to me that SWP types like the one where you got that estimate from have far more of a vested interest in talking up the numbers than the police have in talking them down.

Yossi,

Thanks for your reply, and for being the first poster not to insult me!

I take your point that history pre-1948 is more complicated than it appears, and that co-habitation between Jews, Arabs and Christians was peaceful but deteriorated as the end of the British Mandate neared; but I cannot accept that Israel, which should be a beacon of democracy, human rights and co-operation, amid a sea of autocratic Arab regimes, should be based on such a crude tenet as the Right of Return at the expense of the Palestinians who were displaced by its creation; to say that ‘the driving force’ of history is justification for people who suffer no persecution in the US or UK to settle in Israel, on land stolen from Palestinians, and often in illegal settlements, is a very weak argument; and it is equally weak to suggest that Jews today are under the same existential threat as they were under Hitler; I admit that zealots in the Middle East declare their wish to annihilate Israel, but it is pure rhetoric, and no Arab regime, or Iran, wishes to do that, or is in a position to do so. Although of course Israel must be secretly praying that Iran gets involved, either through Hamas or Hizbollah, as a pretext to strike against it. Iran’s silence in this regard is proof, if any were needed, that it will remain out of this conflict.

In this great time of international crisis, which demo did Tommy Sheridan speak at?

Here’s what’s going to happen tomorrow.

An entirely peaceful and dignified demonstration by supporters of Israel will occur in London.

It will be mobbed by a vicious crowd of antisemitic thugs throwing objects and hurling slurs. Their blood is up today following their little “atrocity propaganda fest”.

The police will tell the supporters of Israel to move and disperse for “their own protection” and because they are inciting Muslim sensibilities.

I will feel ashamed at the sickness that has infested my country and the hearts of too many of it’s citizens.

It’s certainly ensured a higher turn out for tomorrow.

“what on earth are the Quakers with their fine tradition of decent mindedness doing in the mixture?”

Erm, maybe they are protesting war? You need to take several steps back. Not everyone shares the same assumptions (eg, how Israel might exercise its right to defend itself – Quakers question any state’s right to do that – & what that might entail, so protesting against bombing etc is not ipso facto anti-semitic). Quakers are pacifists. They don’t side with Hamas or with Israel. They don’t identify this protest as pro-Hamas. Perhaps that’s naive but they are, as you say, decent people. They just want people to stop killing each other. I bet they show up at tomorrow’s demo too.

Dave: oh dear, you really have plumbed the depths of stupidity and kneejerk reaction, even by the standards of Mesquito and Bertie!

What part of this statement of fact is offensive:

“(Israel) Executed Hamas leader Sheikh Yassin, together with family members”.

Other than YossiUK, who presents a reasoned response to my posts, the responses have been childish and non-productive, to say the least.

Why does Ashford believe “Iran’s silence is proof..”? It is them I bet directing Hamas or if not them Syria. And what is pure rhetoric? Ashford seems to forget at least 3 or is it 4 wars engineered by Arab states to destroy Israel? History lessons required me thinks.

And on another note I believe you only hav eto stand up at a Football match these days to get arrested or shout racial abuse. So why are the police not arresting these masked violent men attacking them? Sunday’s demo will reveal a lot more of the differences between those wanting peace and those seeking a “truce” – I use the owrd “truce” as Hamas do not wnat PEACE!!

Oh dear, HP really has to get over its obsession with the SWP and the likes of Tommy Sheridan! Israel is bombing the hell out of Gaza and blood is being spilt needlessly on both sides, and much more will flow, but good old Mike is preoccupied by a cheap shot at a second-division Scottish politician. Nice one, Mike! I’m sure the invitation to join the next EU Troika is in the post, such is your insight into a solution to the Middle East!

“Why?”

*sighs* I really can’t believe I have to explain this…

If a lot of people are protesting then that will draw more attention to the issue and more attention to next weeks protest. It will also make it feel more like the “done thing”, in that if a few hundred thousand instead of a few hundred (or whatever) are out protesting then it’s less of a “niche” sort of a thing. Momentum is something which any sociologist/anthropologist can tell you about. If you think otherwise then just look at Obama defeating Clinton. How’d that happen? Expansion via momentum.

The police don’t want this to happen. That’s not a mad conspiracy theory, that’s plain rational thought: bigger protests mean more work. I don’t know if you were there today, but the amount of police around the embassy was MASSIVE. There were at least hundreds of them about. Do you know how much shit the police would be in if anyone managed to trash or occupy the embassy.

I’m sure that you can guess.

More people = more hassle, more risk of embassy horror, more effort, more police needed, more of their budget spent on paying people (I don’t believe they got given overtime, but they still had to get cash), more headache in general.

Accordingly the police will minimise their estimations (or at least their reported ones) to make protests look like as small affairs as they possibly can. They have good form in this respect: just check out last week. They claimed that there were a mere 12,000 protesting in Trafalgar Square yet stated 6,000 protested outside the embassy.

Does that make any sense? NO. If you’d been to both protests it would be fairly blatant that less than half the protest made it to the embassy. A lot less. There was no structured effort to get people over there and a tonne of people drifted away. I’d not be surprised if the number who went from one to the other was a tenth.

And that’s disregarding the absurdity of Trafalgar Square being something you can fill to overflowing with a mere 12,000 people…

“It seems to me that SWP types like the one where you got that estimate from have far more of a vested interest in talking up the numbers than the police have in talking them down.”

Actually I didn’t get that figure from the SWP. It’s come from a number of sources, StW included. If you imagine that StW are still an SWP front then you obviously haven’t been paying attention, Rees is off the CC and there’s a whole load of drama kicking off about the whole “popular front” issue that I’m finding it a joy to watch.

Do they have a vested interest? Of course, that’s why I didn’t swallow their figure like a pill.

But here’s the rub: Hyde Park is a big fucking place. I went there to see the 02 Wireless festival in 2007 and so I’ve seen it full of people before. Get your hands on a ticket to see Blur in the summer and you can see it for yourself.

Filling even a section of Hyde Park is a massive feat and its not something that just over 10,000 people can do. The police might want you to believe that, but it simply isn’t the case. 200,000? That’s a far more believable figure. Especially if you factor in the fact that there were people leaving and people turning up throughout. Meaning that at any one point you would have an inaccurate figure, and an underestimation.

Which could perhaps be another place where the police went wrong?

White skin colour should not be classified as a specifically European trait, A mutation arising in SLC24A5 is believed to have caused ‘white’ skin colour in Europeans. Cavalli-Sforza a population geneticist also cites eastern and northern Africa as sites of other mutations causing lightened skin tones. This would explain large populations of ‘white’ skin coloring in Syria and Lebanon. One should also remember that skin colour is a polygenic trait – influenced by several genes meaning the skin colour in an individual could arise through different means or inherited from several different ethnic groupings.

One should always also remember that an individual cannot, and should not be held accountable for the genes provided to them by his/her parents.

I bet they [Quakers] show up at tomorrow’s demo too.

On the Sabbath? I’ll have to check in to that. :D

“I use the owrd “truce” as Hamas do not wnat PEACE!!”

Hm. Funny that they offered a decade of it, then…

Has it occurred to you that it might just be easier for the centrist Kadima party to attack the Palestinians than to face the rise of the already mighty Israeli Right in the face of the massive settler purged which would be required to return the West Bank into settler hands? That this will shore up their position nicely for the forthcoming election, where a destruction level defeat seemed imminent?

Something to consider…

“I take your point that history pre-1948 is more complicated than it appears, and that co-habitation between Jews, Arabs and Christians was peaceful but deteriorated as the end of the British Mandate neared;”

Yes pre-1948 history is more complicated than it is usually presented. But it is not accurate to say that co-habitation was peaceful and only deteriorated at the end of the British Mandate. True the level of violence was much much smaller previously, but abuse against Jews and to a smaller extent against Christians did exist. One need only read the travel letters of Rabbi Ovadiah Bartenura, who moved to the land in the 15th century.

“should be based on such a crude tenet as the Right of Return at the expense of the Palestinians who were displaced by its creation;”

Again this is not the case. Israel bases its existence of the concept of self determination, in the land that has been historically linked to the Jewish people. The displacement of Jews and Arabs is a tragic consequence of war.

Do you believe in the legitimacy of Jews returning to Kfar Darom in Gaza? A Jewish village in pre-1948 Gaza that the Jews returned to after 1967, but where then expelled from again in 2006. Do you support the right of Jews to return there?

What about the settlements of Gush Etzion? After all they were pre-1948 also. And Hebron?

Jews were forced and fled from parts of the Land of Israel and the wider Arab world, and they have accommodated themselves to that fact, and I don’t see you or others demanding that they be allowed to return. Likewise many Palestinian Arabs were forced or fled from their homes in what is today Israel. They have no more rights to return to Israel, than Jews do to Gaza or to Baghdad, or than Greeks to Istanbul or Turks to Thessaloniki.

Palestinians, when they have their own state, can instigate their own right of return for all those Palestinian Arabs who wish to live there. These Arabs will have the right to return even if they live peaceful, non-persecuted lives in New York, London, or Tel Aviv.

Mike:

God, I can’t believe that nasty Iran or even worse, Syria, might be ‘directing’ Hamas. That is just disgusting. I mean, who’d do a thing like that? Terrible. Why can’t they just do what the US does, and ‘direct’ Israel (for direct, read: fund, arm, and give carte blanche to) from 7,000 miles away.

How DARE Syria get involved, when it’s on their doorstep? Why can’t Syria and Iran back off like all the other Arab states, and leave Palestine to hang. Next thing we know, the Gazans will be getting anti-aircraft missile and radar and everything. I honestly don’t know where those bloody Palestinians will stop. They’ll soon be able to fight Israel on equal terms, and we couldn’t have that, could we?!

James, you’re reading way too much into this. The police have absolutely no reason whatsoever to down play the numbers – it’s unlikely that this war will go on for more than another week or two, so that has nothing to do with it.

I trust them a lot more than the SWPites in Stop the war who always come out with ridiculous figures. Indeed, it was this type of exaggeration that pissed a lot of people off in the first place with how they were handling things.

REPLY TO AHSFORD:

Ashford, you conceded that” a safe homeland for the Jewish people was necessary”, but asked the questions:

1. The Palestinians had to lose their homes and livelihoods to provide it. They played no part whatever in the persecution and eventual extermination of the European Jews.

The short answer is because the Arabs refused to share SOME of Mandate Palestine with the Jews, under a UN partition plan. Jewish asipirations to a national home to which they have an ancient connection are universally recognised as legitimate (outiside extremist circles). In 1948 The Arabs launched a war whose stated aim was the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Middle East. In this war many were displaced by the fighting – this is one of the sad consequences of war.

The Arabs that live in Israel today have full citizenship and civil rights. There is discrimination, as there is in every country, and this should be opposed – as it is, frequently, in Israel’s courts.

In 1948 there were also about 750,000 Jews who were displaced from Arab countries. Roughly equal to the number of Palestinian Arabs displaced in the 1948 war,

2. Why the ‘Right of Return’ (from the exodus of Biblical times, some 2,000 years ago) to Palestine should be extended to Jews, many of whom are, to all intents and purposes, are European or North American, be it in appearance, customs, education, opportunities, etc., and who live free of persecution in Europe and the US, but be denied to Palestinians, who live under occupation, should they wish to resettle in lands which were stolen within living memory.

For the simple reason that they are Jews, and Israel is a Jewish state – which you have recognised as legitimate. A child born to English parents in Austalia will still recieve English citizenship, even though he may speak with an Australian accent and play Aussie Rules Football.

With regard to the refugees of 1948 – there were millions upon millions of refugeescreated by the wars of the 20th century. No other group, to my knowledge, has claimed a legal right of return. Germans expelled from the former Yugoslavia in 1945, do not get to return to ancestral lands in modern Serbia, the same is true of the millions of Indians and Pakistanis displaced during the partition of 1948. Refugees are by and large absorbed the countries in which they find themselves – as was the case of the 750,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries in ‘48. Only the Palestinians have been maintained as Refugees for 60 odd years. This is because it suited Arab rulers to keep them in this state.

The Palestinians have suffered greatly – not least at the hands of their own leaders. They should have a right of return, to a state called Palestine that exists alongside Israel.

I hope that begins to answer your questions. Your statements about Israelis with blu eyes etc. were pretty racist and way off the mark, but I don’t think you are a loony like some of the other people that post here.

Whatever it’s size, and as I say,I think it’s far closer to the police figures, the whole thing was completely descredited by the self righteous thugs outside the Israeli embassy.

It was a lesson in how not to do PR.

“Likewise many Palestinian Arabs were forced or fled from their homes in what is today Israel. They have no more rights to return to Israel, than Jews do to Gaza”

I’d say Jews are doing a pretty good job of returning to Gaza at the moment. Let’s wait and see if the settlements return…

And the difference is that the Jew who cannot return to Kfar Darom has a whole country where he is free to settle, or else he can fly to any number of countries and live in peace and prosperity. The Palestinian in Gaza cannot leave his occupied territory at all, thanks to the combined efforts of Israel and the despicable regime in Egypt.

James, you’re reading way too much into this. The police have absolutely no reason whatsoever to down play the numbers – it’s unlikely that this war will go on for more than another week or two, so that has nothing to do with it.

Mike, they struggled to deal with the crowd today. Really, they did. Perhaps this comes from not having been there but I don’t think you quite realise how much difficulty they had containing and dealing with the crowd using the methods they were instructed to. Imagine trying to stuff a galleon of goldfish into a small cardboard box and you’re halfway there.

They found it hard. And that with hundreds of them there, perhaps more. If another hundred thousand or so showed up d’you reckon they’d be able to cope? And do you reckon that reporting a low turn out would make it more or less likely that more people would show up?

Now this isn’t mad conspiracy theory talk Mike, it’s pretty obvious when you consider it: is it easier to lie about how many people turned up or to deal with many, many more people arriving next weekend? What would you do, if you were in the position of the police? Be honest and risk your boys safety? Really?

I trust them a lot more than the SWPites in Stop the war who always come out with ridiculous figures. Indeed, it was this type of exaggeration that pissed a lot of people off in the first place with how they were handling things.

Mike. I’ve given you my reasoning. It’s a big park. Today, it was a pretty much full park. I can appreciate you being wary of these numbers, and god knows I’m wary of the Trotskyites, but wouldn’t you say that my rationale seems sound here?

Can anyone doubt that a great evil is amongst us?

We have over the last 50 years committed a folly equivalent to inviting over 2 million Nazi Party members, sympathisers and hangers on in the middle of the 1930s.

For every one of these demonstrators there are a thousand nodding in agreement, a councillor or MP working away to destroy parliamentary democracy, ten or more supporting a terrorist network ready to strike in this country and millions abroad ready to murder us.

Folly on a grand scale.

To be addressed only by a large dose of sanity, beginning by making clear that anyone wanting to stay in this country does so by playing by our democratic rules. Anyone else can go elsewhere or spend the rest of their lives in prison here.

Those on the so called left who support this totalitarian movement are beneath contempt. Many of them are just secret anti-semites. There has always been a strong strain of anti-semitism in the socialists movement.

Whatever it’s size, and as I say,I think it’s far closer to the police figures, the whole thing was completely descredited by the self righteous thugs outside the Israeli embassy.
It was a lesson in how not to do PR.

Eh…There was a minority who were morons. A minority of how many, Mike? I’d struggle to imagine it being a hundred people, probably far fewer than that. So that many people out of somewhere between 20,000 and 200,000.

I just don’t really see that as “discrediting” anything save the people involved. It demonstrates that a few idiots showed up. That’s a pity, I’m sorry to hear it. But what else does it show? Beyond a few people being idiots?

“I’d say Jews are doing a pretty good job of returning to Gaza at the moment. Let’s wait and see if the settlements return…

And the difference is that the Jew who cannot return to Kfar Darom has a whole country where he is free to settle, or else he can fly to any number of countries and live in peace and prosperity. The Palestinian in Gaza cannot leave his occupied territory at all, thanks to the combined efforts of Israel and the despicable regime in Egypt.”

It is quite clear that Israel has no intention of resettling Gaza, anyone familiar with Israeli politics or Israeli society would understand that.

Yes the Jews of Kfar Darom do have a whole country in which to settle, so could the Palestinians.

Peace is possible, a two state solution is possible. Each side will have to compromise for certain, but with groups like Hamas, who absolutely reject the concept of Israel’s existence, the creation of such a state is still far off.

Patrick Gray

If the rally in 9 hours time is overrun by antisemites then the next stop for the UK is the Umma and any non-Muslim might as well start packing their bags.

“Those on the so called left who support this totalitarian movement are beneath contempt.”

Do you realise how hackneyed that phrase is?

Ah, bless, Ashford, who thinks his parroting of nonsense deserves a polite answer, thinks that the whole mess is simply an Israel v Arab world conflict. He even goes so far in his defence of the passivity of Iran to talk about a situation should (future tense) get involved. He seems to think that Syria’s acts or non-acts out of love for the Palestinian people. Whilst all of this fits a vulgar anti-imperialism – only the US and Israel carry any responsiblity according to his view – the real world begs to differ. The Arab world is starkly divided over Palestine and over a host of other issues (it is called politics), Syria’s, Iran’s, Egypt’s, Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. decisions are driven by this politics. How patronising to think otherwise.

I appreciate you are all excited after walking the streets of London with many of your ilk, but, when you calm down, why not pop off to a library and do some reading. It may help you to know something about anything.

It is quite clear that Israel has no intention of resettling Gaza, anyone familiar with Israeli politics or Israeli society would understand that.

Here’s the question, though: do Kadima have any intention of reversing the settlers in the West Bank? Thus far they have shown no interest in even halting expansion.

Peace is possible, a two state solution is possible.

Unless your answer to the above question is “Yes” then no, it isn’t.

Mike, they struggled to deal with the crowd today. Really, they did.

The only place where they needed to deal with the crowd was at the embassy, and I saw the riot police live on TV, on over head shots, use their training to mount a text book counter riot maneuver. The demonstrators were stitched up like kippers and taught a bloody good lesson. They were the ones that were seriously panicked.

If you try it again next week, they’ll whoop your arses again.

Good lord, did I really just read this:

How patronising to think otherwise.

followed by this:

I appreciate you are all excited after walking the streets of London with many of your ilk, but, when you calm down, why not pop off to a library and do some reading. It may help you to know something about anything.?

Just a thought, if we are telling people to go back to where they came from based on skin colour and ethnicity. Perhaps said poster would also suggest both white and black people leave America and go back to where they came from. Maybe those Scandinavian, Gaul and Germanic peoples would leave Celtic Britain. One might even question as to which parts of the middle east the Arabs actually ethnically from, and were they actually present in Palastine in large numbers pre 600CE.

These sort of arguments can get terribly convoluted and often bite you on the bum depending on how far you wish to pursue them.

The only place where they needed to deal with the crowd was at the embassy,

Yes.

and I saw the riot police live on TV, on over head shots, use their training to mount a text book counter riot maneuver. The demonstrators were stitched up like kippers and taught a bloody good lesson. They were the ones that were seriously panicked.
If you try it again next week, they’ll whoop your arses again.

You missed a lot. Really.

Those on the so called left who support this totalitarian movement are beneath contempt.”
Do you realise how hackneyed that phrase is?

Hackneyed, yes, but that does not bring into doubt its veracity.

Take a look at their charter; take a look at the way they killed and terrorised many of their political opponents on taking power; take a look at their attitude to trade unions and other groups amongst civil society; take a look at the way their leadership has done nothing to support or protect “their” people during the conflict; take a look at how they have no interest in Palestinian nationhood but instead believe in a transnational theological [sic] region that knows no national limits.

The only possible distinction it has from totalitarianism is its reactionary elements.

Now, you may well think that you should support this movement (another mark of totalitarianism) against Israel, but please don’t pretend to yourself or to others that it is anything other than what is is; a reactionary, racist, totalitarian movement.

“Here’s the question, though: do Kadima have any intention of reversing the settlers in the West Bank? Thus far they have shown no interest in even halting expansion.”

Firstly why should the creation of a Palestinian state involve the expulsion of every single Jew living in Judea and Samaria? Does Israel not have an Arab population? Can Palestine not have a Jewish population?

Secondly, Israel has dismantled settlements and outposts, but it has been difficult.

I’m sure Israel would, if it felt it would further a resolution between itself and the Palestinians, destroy the settlements in Judea and Samaria, but again it would not be right to do so, and it would not be easy either.

Of course while Israeli’s continue to experience rockets and violence from “returned ” territories, they will not look favourably on handing over more land, for it to be used as staging posts for increased violence.

Ah, but my patronising attitude is not premised on 200 years of the British empire, merely an attitude I picked up on the left. Not surprised that you recognised it in the least.

Hackneyed, yes, but that does not bring into doubt its veracity.

Eh…Well, I’d suggest you find a way of putting it that hasn’t been used by Nick Cohen et al a dozen times already. Being overblown with pomposity is fine, just so long as you’re original.

And here’s a quick, one question quiz for you:

1) Which side in this conflict have offered a decade or decades of peace if a return to the 1967 borders occurs?

No wait, judging from Ashford’s comments, it would seem the two to converge. So, yes, good eye, caught me out there. How clever of you.

Yes, You’re right, I have always thought 3000 rockets since Israeli withdrawal a sign of peace as well as an insistence that the country you wish to have peace with should not exist.

I just don’t really see that as “discrediting” anything save the people involved. It demonstrates that a few idiots showed up. That’s a pity, I’m sorry to hear it. But what else does it show? Beyond a few people being idiots?

You can think of it what you want, but I’m telling you that the Jew hating slogans, the Al Qaeda banners and particularly the thugs at the embassy cast a large shadow over the whole event. They are what made the news.

Firstly why should the creation of a Palestinian state involve the expulsion of every single Jew living in Judea and Samaria? Does Israel not have an Arab population? Can Palestine not have a Jewish population?

Because the settlers are only there as an occupying force. That’s their reason for habitation.

Secondly, Israel has dismantled settlements and outposts, but it has been difficult.

It’s dismantled how many, exactly? And how many are left? And how many are planned to be built on top of the existing settlements?

I’m sure Israel would, if it felt it would further a resolution between itself and the Palestinians, destroy the settlements in Judea and Samaria, but again it would not be right to do so, and it would not be easy either.

Well…The fact that Hamas have offered a decade/generation of peace if the removal of West Bank settlements occurs and a full-scale withdrawal to the 1967 borders occurs should rather give you a hint as to whether it would improve peace prospects?

Of course while Israeli’s continue to experience rockets and violence from “returned ” territories, they will not look favourably on handing over more land, for it to be used as staging posts for increased violence.

Unfortunately Hamas isn’t entirely responsible for what Islamic Jihad, the Salafists or the various other even-more-extremists get up to. If you want to get rid of those undesirable elements I’d recommend against the notoriously moderating impact of extensive bombing of civilian areas.

Mattwales:

I know it suits supporters of Israel to trot out the argument that the US is based on colonisation by outsiders, etc. and that you have to make a cut-off point somewhere and move on. Autre temps, autre moeurs, my friend, autre temps, autre moeurs. Israel is supposed to be a safe haven for those who were persecuted in Europe, and as a creation of the post-war settlement, might be expected to have slightly higher standards than conquistador North America, or indeed more recent times, when slavery was in force.

And the fact that people from the world over can settle in Israel, while those it displaced (who outnumber Israelis) still live under occupation on Israel’s doorstep, pretty much destroys your argument that we should just move on and accept the status quo as a fait accompli.

Go on, why don’t you trot out the next response: it’s not Israel’s fault they’re refugees, it’s those bloody Arab states neighbouring Israel for failing to accept them. Corrupt Arab regimes do not lessen Israel’s guilt for expelling Palestinians and occupying their territory.

Would your question exclude peace with Egypt and Jordan or just totalitarian movements?

Yes, You’re right, I have always thought 3000 rockets since Israeli withdrawal a sign of peace as well as an insistence that the country you wish to have peace with should not exist.

Was your answer “Hamas”?

Just in case it wasn’t, here’s a clue: Not Israel.

You can think of it what you want,

Cheers, Mike! :D

but I’m telling you that the Jew hating slogans, the Al Qaeda banners and particularly the thugs at the embassy cast a large shadow over the whole event. They are what made the news.

Well what do you suggest, Mike?

Would your question exclude peace with Egypt and Jordan or just totalitarian movements?

Uh…Israel has offered peace with Egypt and Jordan if it retreats to the 1967 borders? :/

Hm.

If you say so… :S

Hey James,

Why don’t the huge majority of you take the handful of disgusting little cretins who assault police officers and destroy property out of the demo? Or do you approve of that kind of behavior? Surely 15k-20k of you can handle two or three hundred assholes.

YossiUK:

Of course while Israeli’s continue to experience rockets and violence from “returned ” territories, they will not look favourably on handing over more land, for it to be used as staging posts for increased violence.

Gaza was not returned in any real sense: it has been besieged by the IDF by air, sea and land since August 2005. Why do supporters of Israel fail to admit that violence against Israel is almost always a response to Israeli oppression of the populations they are occupying or threatening. It really isn’t very hard to understand.

It’s not Hamas, it is another group. Hamas have offered peace, decades of the stuff So Hamas have done nothing, nothing whatsoever that in any way makes them other than peace-loving representatives of the Palestinian people. They have done nothing whatsoever other than holding out an olive branch. Is anyone expected to take you seriously?

If I had Jewish friends in the UK I would be advising them to get out now but I am disgusted with my country and myself that I could make such a statement.

Disgusted that Britain will again have expelled it’s Jewish population to satisfy the blood-lust of religious extremists. Disgusted that many in the country would cheer this departure. Disgusted that these same people would attack those leaving for going to Israel. Disgusted that I would feel that it is better for them to leave and live in safety than to live in a nation taken over by religious and political thugs abetted by 50 years of craven government.

“Because the settlers are only there as an occupying force. That’s their reason for habitation.”

Those settlers are their because of varying reasons. Some are people who could not afford the high house prices, and so moved to cheaper homes in the settlements.

The majority are nationalist and in many cases religious Jews who moved to those areas due to the significance these places have for Jews.

Why can’t you accept the notion of these Jews living as law abiding citizens of Palestine?

Peace in our times, life in the Soviet Union really is a true workers paradise. Down with the Imperialist Lackeys. And, after all that, still you get it all so very wrong.

Hey James,
Why don’t the huge majority of you take the handful of disgusting little cretins who assault police officers and destroy property out of the demo? Or do you approve of that kind of behavior? Surely 15k-20k of you can handle two or three hundred assholes.

They don’t tend to wear t-shirts saying “I’m going to kick a coppers fucking face in”, Boogski.

You can’t tell what their intention is until they attack the police. This makes it rather tricky to “Extract” them since if it’s obvious who they are there are usually a few dozen cops beating you to it…

In instances of bottle throwing etc I can see where you’re coming from, but whenever they’ve been obvious to protesters but not to the police in my presence I’ve seen people disarming them. One man did so to quite obvious physical risk to himself, displaying quite a bit of bravery.

Additionally there’s the fact that a lot of the time the police hardly help matters with their treatment of protesters, which we don’t exactly have a lot of say in…

I don’t think I really need to add much of a comment there, you’ve colored yourself in rather well with your posts this evening, no pun intended. I do like the justification that Israel must have higher standards than the other countries. The idea of a moral cut off point was amusing too, and the destroyed arguement.

“Gaza was not returned in any real sense:”

Let’s say that this comment of yours is true. Even you must concede that it was an improvement. No Jews, settlers or soldiers, no checkpoints. But the violence from Gaza increased after the withdrawral when presumably it should have decreased.

This indecently was before the election of Hamas and the restrictions that resulted after Hamas’ brutal takeover of the strip.

As a committed socialist, I think James’ rose-tinted support of Hamas a betrayal of the Palestinian people in general and the Palestinian people is a disgrace. As I say, not the first time you have got it wrong.

James –

Well either f off or tell us exactly how a movement which supports the following is not totalitarian:

1. Full citizenship only for its own followers.

2. Censorship of plays, books and films that the movement finds offensive.

3. Killing of apostates from the movement.

4. Opposition to music, art and dancing.

5. Treating women as second class citizens.

6. Preventing any criticism of the movement’s founder.

7. Pretending that the movement’s founder is a perfect example for humanity even though he was a slave owning, thieving, sex slave using, murdering, polygamist paedophile.

8. Seeking to ethnically cleanse its enemies.

It’s not Hamas, it is another group.

Nah, it’s a few of them. If you knew anything about Palestinian politics you’d know that it tends towards the schism as much as the British far-left does. You know that Monty Python joke about the “Palestinian Liberation Front”? Closely based on reality.

Hamas have offered peace, decades of the stuff So Hamas have done nothing, nothing whatsoever that in any way makes them other than peace-loving representatives of the Palestinian people. They have done nothing whatsoever other than holding out an olive branch. Is anyone expected to take you seriously?

This mockery doesn’t detract from the fact that they have offered peace.

Disgusted that many in the country would cheer this departure.

Hm…There were quite a few Jews at the protest, you know…

Those settlers are their because of varying reasons. Some are people who could not afford the high house prices, and so moved to cheaper homes in the settlements.

Why can’t you accept the notion of these Jews living as law abiding citizens of Palestine?

So these colonialists will really be up for that?

Peace in our times, life in the Soviet Union really is a true workers paradise. Down with the Imperialist Lackeys. And, after all that, still you get it all so very wrong.

Sweetheart, you’ve made a presumption. A presumption that has lead you deeply mislead. Read my blog for my politics, and here’s a promo: I’m not any kind of Leninist, least of all a Marxist-Leninist (i.e. Stalinist).

As a committed socialist, I think James’ rose-tinted support of Hamas a betrayal of the Palestinian people in general and the Palestinian people is a disgrace. As I say, not the first time you have got it wrong.

Well either f off or tell us exactly how a movement which supports the following is not totalitarian:

I think both of you have (wilfully or otherwise) staged a deep misinterpretation of my viewpoint. I don’t think Hamas are a lovely bunch of Jew-huggers. I think that they are the democratically elected government of Palestine and our best hope for peace.

Why? It takes nationalists to build a nation. If you want an independent Palestine (and I’m overwhelming my internationalist side here to argue “You should”) then Hamas are the only option. You think that the corrupt kleptocrats of Fatah are up for it?

Sure, they love the idea of being in charge of building the Palestinian nation. They could steal billions if you left them in charge of that project.

I consider Hamas’ politics to be utterly foul, but there’s no other organisation in Palestine that can turn it from a stateless slum into something better. Sorry. If you can think of any other group then please do name them.

You can’t tell what their intention is until they attack the police. This makes it rather tricky to “Extract” them since if it’s obvious who they are there are usually a few dozen cops beating you to it…

What absolute bullshit! When you see an asshole screaming in a cop’s face, that means he/she is an asshole and needs to be pulled back. It’s not brain surgery…

“So these colonialists will really be up for that?”

Some of these Jews would and some would not, those that are not willing to be law abiding citizens of Palestine, would have to leave.

Many settlers have expressed their desire to stay in a future Palestinian state if and when it is created, because they value the sanctity of where they are living more than the “state” they are living in.

Just look at the example of Rabbi Menachem Froman.

But you seem to believe that even Jews that are willing to live in Palestine should be evicted.

I think this sums up the situation quite well:
“I know you really wanna know whos
coming thru leaving bloodstains and residues,
Sorry homeboy, but your flow sounds used,
Got to pay your dues,baby you know the rules”
Ehud Olmert,commenting on suggetions that he is not the baddest mack-daddy on the mid-east side.

Wow …. wouldn’t it be wonderful if you useful-idiot members of Islam’s rentacrowd made the same kind of stink about the genocide in Darfur. You might really achieve something and actually save some innocent lives instead of condemning Palestinians to more misery under Hamas.
And – just by the way … why not go out and get yourselves a job.

What absolute bullshit! When you see an asshole screaming in a cop’s face, that means he/she is an asshole and needs to be pulled back. It’s not brain surgery…

Have you been to a lot of protests, Boogski?

Some of these Jews would and some would not, those that are not willing to be law abiding citizens of Palestine, would have to leave.

I doubt they would. Look how hard the IDF had to work to get them out of Gaza…

Many settlers have expressed their desire to stay in a future Palestinian state if and when it is created, because they value the sanctity of where they are living more than the “state” they are living in.

But you seem to believe that even Jews that are willing to live in Palestine should be evicted.

Quite honestly…Their best bet is to GTFO and let the bad vibes die down, wait until things are a little more chilled and the scenery is safer. That’ll come, if a separate Palestinian state is allowed to develop. May take a while, but it’ll come. Hopefully.

And – just by the way … why not go out and get yourselves a job.

Sure, once the degree’s done.

Why? It takes nationalists to build a nation. If you want an independent Palestine (and I’m overwhelming my internationalist side here to argue “You should”) then Hamas are the only option. You think that the corrupt kleptocrats of Fatah are up for it?

You think Hamas are Palestinian nationalists?

Have you been to a lot of protests, Boogski?

Nope. Been to one when I was with the IBEW. Funny. No assaults. No arrests. No destruction of property.

That’s the way adults do it, James.

Mattwales:

You don’t expect Israel to have higher standards than other countries? No, nor do I. But I know for sure that it has lower standards than any other so-called democracy; and that its tendency to resort to occupation, violence and manipulation of the media, always playing the victim, and always acting on ‘humanitarian’ grounds’, for the ‘good of the people of Gaza’ against whom Israel has ‘no ill will’ is a disgrace. Yes, I’m sure the families of the 800 dead Palestinians are seething against Hamas for all that bloodshed. Israel was forced to bombard Gaza night after night for the Palestinians’ own good. The refusal to allow western journalists into Gaza is further evidence that Israel can’t play fair in the media arena, let alone the military one.

I won’t tax you too much Matt. You’re clearly underqualified to talk on this subject, given your spelling of Palastine (sic); and it’s very hard to have a serious arguement (sic) with you either.

You think Hamas are Palestinian nationalists?

Islamist nationalists, insofar as that’s possible.

And I note that you haven’t named an alternative group that is 1) Widely supported by Palestinians and 2) Not bound to steal all the money anyone gives them. That’s fairly telling.

Nope.

Well please don’t pose as an authority on these things, then. :) It’s tricky, so far as I can tell. People don’t just shout-shout-shout-punch, that’s not quite how it works. The police often initiate proceedings through making a baton&shield charge, as I was witness to myself last night when some of us were just standing there (kept apart from the protest proper by a shield wall) and the police backed us down the road seemingly because they just wanted to stretch their legs.

Been to one when I was with the IBEW. Funny. No assaults. No arrests. No destruction of property.
That’s the way adults do it, James.

Yeah, there were a lot of children in the crowd. They didn’t cause a lot of trouble, though. I don’t really see what age has to do with this?

Yesh. I have only posted here twice, if memory serves. And each time it was to insult that contemptable gobshit Morrisey. And was under ther name of Pete, as opposed to Pete999.

However, I just wanted to say that this is an excellent post. It exposes the scum who use these marches to suggest that they are somehow part of the mainstream when they are really tossers of the highest order.

As well as this I just wanted to mention that the chap who posts under the name of Benjamin is an arse. I mean, yes Gaza faces horrors, and so does Israel, but in the face of all that this guy posts nothing but bland inanities and seemingly deliberatly contrary positions simply for the sake of it.

Other than that, this is the best HP thread theres been in a long while, many sensible comments and a distinct lack of the extremists who tend to dominate here.

Good stuff.

Maven: “I can’t do any more hyperbole at the moment”

How about telling the losers to go and get a fucking job and stop being a bunch of parasitical nihilistic tosser scum?

Absolutely disgusting. I rather wish the police might have cracked a few fascist scumbags’ heads a little more forcefully. That’s the only language they understand, it would seem to appear.

James,

It seems to me a dose of common sense is all you need when it comes to protesting. Is it really that complicated? Why not give the police a wide berth? You can still shout idiotic slogans and dance around like morons.

James –

You could be wiser than your years, but it sounds like you are intellectually younger than your years.

“I consider Hamas’ politics to be utterly foul, but there’s no other organisation in Palestine that can turn it from a stateless slum into something better. Sorry. If you can think of any other group then please do name them.”

So – you want to see an “utterly foul” movement take over the Palestinian and pursue their agenda of ethnically cleansing Jews from Palestine as they have ethnically cleansed from most of the Islamic world?

So could you name any other group in 1933 that could give back to the Germans their sense of self-respect and ascendancy in the world? No – neither could I.

What a pathetic non-argument.

We should hold all Palestinian representatives to account, just as we should hold Israeli representatives to account.

Ethnic cleansing, sectarianism, murder of apostates, oppression of minority religions, murder of homosexuals etc is simply not acceptable. End of story. When the Palestinians realise that, we will be able to have a peace settlement. Until they do we will have either truce or war.

Absolutely disgusting. I rather wish the police might have cracked a few fascist scumbags’ heads a little more forcefully. That’s the only language they understand, it would seem to appear.

Spoken like a true reactionary. You ought to be careful – you might discredit Harry’s Place!

Did you notice me mention that there were a lot of children in the crowd, by the way? Still keen on police brutality?

James,
It seems to me a dose of common sense is all you need when it comes to protesting. Is it really that complicated? Why not give the police a wide berth? You can still shout idiotic slogans and dance around like morons.

The police a wide berth? If you’d been at the embassy protest you’d understand why that is an absurd suggestion. Preposterous. It was impossible to get within half a street of the embassy without the police barricades cluttering your path.

James -
You could be wiser than your years, but it sounds like you are intellectually younger than your years.

Well, at least I know better than to use an ad hominem.

So – you want to see an “utterly foul” movement take over the Palestinian and pursue their agenda of ethnically cleansing Jews from Palestine as they have ethnically cleansed from most of the Islamic world?

Well hopefully the IDF would give the West Bank settlers much the same treatment that they gave those on the Gaza Strip.

So could you name any other group in 1933 that could give back to the Germans their sense of self-respect and ascendancy in the world? No – neither could I.

Bored of the Nazis now.

What a pathetic non-argument.
We should hold all Palestinian representatives to account, just as we should hold Israeli representatives to account.

Kids included.

I hardly think it’s fair to punish someone who wasn’t allowed to vote, if nothing else….

Ethnic cleansing, sectarianism, murder of apostates, oppression of minority religions, murder of homosexuals etc is simply not acceptable. End of story. When the Palestinians realise that, we will be able to have a peace settlement. Until they do we will have either truce or war.

You can bomb liberalism into someone?

Whoops!

“Kids included.”

Should have been a question, thus:

“Kids included?”

“Did you notice me mention that there were a lot of children in the crowd, by the way? Still keen on police brutality?”

Children were exposed to this sort of racism?

“Children were exposed to this sort of racism?”

Idk if they would really appreciate the meaning of the various flags David T so unproductively assembled. It’s not as if anyone held up a banner going “Go Home Kikes” or something…

The police a wide berth? If you’d been at the embassy protest you’d understand why that is an absurd suggestion. Preposterous. It was impossible to get within half a street of the embassy without the police barricades cluttering your path.

What the fuck did you think the barricades were there for? Aesthetic value? Just stop it already. Do you ram through construction barricades in your motorcar on the freeway as well? Of course not! Why? Because it’s dangerous. And stupid.

YossiUK:

Sari Nusseibeh has already said that nop Jews will be allowed to live in a Palestinian state. He wants it Jew free, like Jordan, Libya, Afghanistan, Saudi, Iraq (which has 5 Jews left) etc.

“Idk if they would really appreciate the meaning of the various flags David T so unproductively assembled. It’s not as if anyone held up a banner going “Go Home Kikes” or something”

Unproductive? I think it was rather helpful of him to provide us with this little montage, but I’m sure you’d rather we didn’t get to see them.