Fair enough Andrew, there is obviously a lot of room for interpretation in the comment. Personally I took it to mean the whole metropolitan commentariat because let’s face it bias againt Israel is certainly not limited to the liberal left.

Support the guerillas, the armed struggles against oppression. Support the Soviets, support the Sandinistas, support the Maoists, support Mengistu, the FLN, support Ghadafi, support the IRA, support the PLO.

Nevermind that guerillas rapidly and inevitably turn into mere criminal gangs with loony ideological justifications. It’s the loony ideological justification we support too. Even if it means mentally turning the world upside down, we prefer it that way.

Nevermind that every single historical ‘armed struggle’ has meant a shit storm of death and when such armies have won the population finds itself under far worse circumstances. Whether in Spain, Algeria or China, South America, Africa or Asia guerilla armies and revolutionaries of all stripes have proved that they are incapable of providing even basic material needs, let alone the freedom which is the currency of the human soul. They are simply never government material which is why they all fail in that regard. This is more tragically pertinant to the Palestinians more than anyone else I can think of and is the reason they are in another shit storm now.

End the armed struggle and the shit storm ends too. And no amount of self-serving Marxist pseudo-science in conflict/peace studies will change that.

The Palestinian armed struggle has led to nothing but death and despair for the Palestinians and that is the harvest they will continue to reap until they stop sowing.

That supporters like the Irie justify and twist and turn against the easily verifable factual time-line demonstrates not their support for Palestinians to live in a vibrant and productive country (which cannot be done whilst all political and religious life is turned to war) but his or her undiminished support for armed struggle even when that brings the inevitable shit-storm.

One day soon, if it has not already, the penny might drop for the Arab states but it never will for The Irie or that ilk.

Indeed.

“Like what, j.r.? I adress every serious comment.”

TheIrie, you have been asked many times whether you think Hamas would ever reject its charter. The question is at the heart of any sensible analysis of why the current conflict is taking place, what should be done to stop it, and what can be done to bring peace to the region.

By ignoring the question, you are being dishonest with yourself.

For what it’s worth, I agree your comment that:

“I believe that stability is the root of peace. If Hamas stop firing for long enough, if Palestinian democracy is strengthened, not undermined, then they will eventually lose elections, and, I hope, a progressive government will evolve in their place. My strategy for Hamas, is not to support their goals, but to support any action they are prepared to take on the path to peace.”

Your answer to my question will clarify your views as to whether your if onlys will ever come to be, and indeed whether you think that Hamas will ever take any actions on the path of peace.

Peace will come, if they want it.

theIrie, didn’t Israel achieve peace with Egypt and Jordan after establishing military superiority? Would the North be quiet if it wasn’t for military superiority?

if Palestinian democracy is strengthened, not undermined, then they will eventually lose elections

How is Palestinian democracy to be strengthened by allowing Hamas to cement its grip on power, arm and increase the terror on its own citizens and Israel?

On the 13th of December Israel were saying something quite different. Whether the negotiations are direct or not is not as important as actually agreeing to ceasefire. If that had been agreed before the Israel attack all the better but whilst Israel is explicitly on record saying they are attempting to negotiate, at that time, HAMAS is not.

Hamas needs conflict to justify its existance. Peace will mean having to…..get a real job! I’m not being trivial – people become conflict junkies and without the conflicty their lives have so much less meaning in their eyes and therefore the conflict becomes a very necessary sub concious crutch to lean on.

Come back at 3pm for more cod psycho analysis…….!

Really? I would take it to mean the commentariat of the Metropolis (which would go quite beyond the London press.) I am not sure at all where you get the bit about it meaning “liberal-left opinion” from.

With this kind of thing I tend to go by the source of the comment to an extent. Guardian/Indie-reading liberal-left bruschetta-munching metropolitan middle class types are a regular bête-noir of HP, so I took this to mean what Marcus was referring to, especially as it was in relation to a piece in the Indie. If he actually meant the commentariat of the Metropolis in general then I stand corrected but in that case it seems to me that their views are too diverse for his comment to be particularly meaningful.

meh – “My point is simple; since Israel are on record as being willing to negotiate as of December the 13th my point is simply that HAMAS should have taken them up on that.” Israel explicitly will not recognised the right of Hamas to exist, and have never said they would enter direct negotiations. If you watch the news, I think you’ll find that the whole world is calling for a ceasefire (except of course the US), but Israel refuses. This seems rather hard to reconcile with your view that Israel are willing to negotiate.