Comments on: In My Country There Is Problem…

By: Israelinurse

Israelinurse — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:21:31 +0000

As fascinating as all this Zionism/Socialism debate is (and I say this as one with 25 years of kibbutz membership under her belt)…I would seriously like to know if these far lefties who go on these “Free Gaza” marches really know who is behind these events. Don’t they realise that they are just being used by a terrorist organisation? When they walk under a “We are all Hamas/Hizbollah” banner do they mean that they condone the hanging of homosexuals, the repression of women, lack of free speech etc.? If not – and those sort of things weren’t compatible with socialism in my day – then why do they allow themselves to be used as propoganda?
Seeing people covering their faces with Kafiyas and throwing things on British streets is as offensive to me as seeing someone parading around in a Nazi uniform, but I guess maybe you have to have luckily survived 2 Intefadas to feel that way, so it’s lost on those using the “Free Palestine” campaign as their latest fashion accessory.
The anti-Semitic rage on Britain’s streets is at a terrifying level. What has to happen before Britain stands up and says “no more”?
All these socialists who claim not to be anti-Semitic now have a chance to prove it by taking control of the wilder elements within the Palestine Solidarity Campaign. Will they take up this serious challenge or continue being puppets?
Anyone interested in the socialist and zionist history of Israel’s establishment should try reading ” The Israelis – founders and sons” by Amos Elon.

By: Tevya

Tevya — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:42:29 +0000

Vildechaye, you’re right but cf Marek Edelman, who was one of leaders of the Bund and the Jewish resistance in the Warsaw ghetto, survived and fought with the Poles in the 1944 Warsaw uprising, stayed in Poland after the war (and after the pogroms of 1967) practicing as a doctor, and then became one of the leaders of Solidarity

By: vildechaye

vildechaye — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 05:07:08 +0000

spgb: I liked your marxism vs. zionism analysis re: European Jews. Unfortunately, you ended it before the key event — i.e. WWII holocaust. That changed the “dialectic” completely. The surviving Bundists (social democrats who believed Jews should integrate and be part of the working class) became Zionists too, as it became CLEAR that a Jewish state was needed to protect Jews, because the non-Jewish world had failed them.

After WWII, only a tiny percentage of the old socialists, even the hardline ones, believed the Marxist point of view you outlined any more. To overlook that is to miss the elephant in the room, i’m afraid.

In short, WWII made 95% of Jews Zionists, even if they stayed in other countries, assuming you define zionism as believing that Jews need their own state for protection.

This is clear to me, a son of holocaust survivors who would never even consider leaving Canada for Israel. That being said, I think the old socialist view you espoused died in the ovens. Too bad you can’t see that.

By: field

field — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 01:35:33 +0000

SPGB Gray –

“Piss poor writing on my part. Sorry”

That’s a start.

Now, if we could only get you to admit to “piss poor thinking” you might begin to make progress.

By: nodrog

nodrog — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:35:39 +0000

Jokes can be dangerous if people don’t get them. I know people who nodded approvingly at Alf Garnett’s rants.

By: spgb gray

spgb gray — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:31:17 +0000

How little you know of Denmark!

I live in a predominantly immigrant ghetto. The gangsta kids like bling, humvees, Snoop Dog and Tupac Shakur. What culture are we being threatened by, G? Word!

By: Josh Scholar

Josh Scholar — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:35:49 +0000

I suppose Denmark is a wonderful country in many ways, and more socially progressive than we are in the USA, but thank god I can’t imagine a similar situation arising here.

This shows how multiculturalism is a bad idea when applied to a hostile culture.

In the US we need to revive the “melting pot” idea. The idea that students should be molded into American values.

By: spgb gray

spgb gray — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:35:12 +0000

ah crap, crap, crap.

A friend mailed me and said I ballsed up above:

“if you think I believe in religious bollocks (Judas’s betrayel of Jesus after the Last Supper), then you are being silly. You are being even more silly if I use that old wives tale as a reason to get people saying Seig Heil, Wir wollen eine enderlosnung fur der jodische problem. Get a grip Field.”

I really must rephrase that to avoid (obvious) misunderstandings.

I don’t believe in any religion
I oppose the Nazis of then and the neo-Nazis of now

Piss poor writing on my part. Sorry

By: Tevya

Tevya — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:24:20 +0000

Fabian, funny with all this talk of Borochov that Sacha Baron Cohen grew up in Habonim Dror. Wouldn’t be surprised if he learnt the guitar singing Shir L’shalom at camp

By: field

field — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:03:48 +0000

“Is it racist to report that Jewish children in Denmark are being dissuaded from attending certain schools because of the current situation in Gaza?”

Yes, it’s got to be. How dare you!

But apparently it’s not racist to use a familiar trope of anti-semitism in criticising a Jewish supporter of Israel’s right to exist.