Comments on: The Left, Israel and the “Holocaust” in Gaza http://hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/ Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don't want to hear Fri, 10 Feb 2012 05:42:11 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: paul maleski http://hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/comment-page-4/#comment-275915 paul maleski Sat, 03 Jan 2009 21:50:22 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/#comment-275915 Gulag Gaza Jew CHEKA boss Moses Uritsky, and kosher; Genrik Yagoda, Laverenti Beria, Apfelbaum et al. butchered Russian Slavs by the million. Few contemporary do-gooder journalists in the West wrote a word on the subject; there were some exceptions, valiant Robert Wilton's attack on the jew, after they had murdered the Romanovs, is one example. Israel is a terroist/criminal state, it is essential that independent news reporters, witness the atrocities being committed in Gulag Gaza. Otherwise, we will have another Sabra or Shatila. Judaism is the most barbaric religion on the planet. Gulag Gaza
Jew CHEKA boss Moses Uritsky, and kosher; Genrik Yagoda, Laverenti Beria, Apfelbaum et al. butchered Russian Slavs by the million. Few contemporary do-gooder journalists in the West wrote a word on the subject; there were some exceptions, valiant Robert Wilton’s attack on the jew, after they had murdered the Romanovs, is one example. Israel is a terroist/criminal state, it is essential that independent news reporters, witness the atrocities being committed in Gulag Gaza. Otherwise, we will have another Sabra or Shatila. Judaism is the most barbaric religion on the planet.

]]> By: clayton levine http://hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/comment-page-4/#comment-275851 clayton levine Sat, 03 Jan 2009 20:06:31 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/#comment-275851 There is no excuse for war crimes! Fellow Worker Lee, I wanted to start off by saying that I am a regular reader of your column in the Industrial Worker and a frequent visitor to LabourStart. I am dismayed that you are defending the indefensible actions of the Israeli military, rather than aknowledging the human rights catastrophe of F-16s dropping tons of explosives onto the most densely populated place on earth. Gaza is a ghetto in the classical sense, home to some 800,000 children. What Israel is doing is collective punishment, which is a war crime. This most recent pre-election massacre isn't about Hamas or quassam attacks. It is about winning an election and reinflating the shamed ego of the Israeli military which was defeated in Lebanon in 2006. The occupation of Gaza never ended - Gazans have been suffering under a brutal, almost total shut off of water, fuel, food, and medicine since Sharon's "disengagement." FW Lee's clumsy attempts to tear down leftist straw men, as well as his strained historical comparisons fall on their face. Gazans are not Nazis or Germans. Israelis aren't the British being bombed in WW2. I am curious, why do you feel the need to defend Israel's blatent violations of international law? What is next, an editorial condemning Israeli draft resistors? As an American Jew, as a former Zionist, and as an industrial unionist, I have been silent for too long. I can't be silent in the face of this latest conflict, which is not a war, but is a massacre. I urge all unionists to educate themselves about the situation and to have the moral courage to stand against the war crimes being perpetrated by Israel. There is no excuse for war crimes!

Fellow Worker Lee,

I wanted to start off by saying that I am a regular reader of your column in the Industrial Worker and a frequent visitor to LabourStart. I am dismayed that you are defending the indefensible actions of the Israeli military, rather than aknowledging the human rights catastrophe of F-16s dropping tons of explosives onto the most densely populated place on earth. Gaza is a ghetto in the classical sense, home to some 800,000 children. What Israel is doing is collective punishment, which is a war crime.

This most recent pre-election massacre isn’t about Hamas or quassam attacks. It is about winning an election and reinflating the shamed ego of the Israeli military which was defeated in Lebanon in 2006.

The occupation of Gaza never ended – Gazans have been suffering under a brutal, almost total shut off of water, fuel, food, and medicine since Sharon’s “disengagement.” FW Lee’s clumsy attempts to tear down leftist straw men, as well as his strained historical comparisons fall on their face. Gazans are not Nazis or Germans. Israelis aren’t the British being bombed in WW2.

I am curious, why do you feel the need to defend Israel’s blatent violations of international law? What is next, an editorial condemning Israeli draft resistors?

As an American Jew, as a former Zionist, and as an industrial unionist, I have been silent for too long. I can’t be silent in the face of this latest conflict, which is not a war, but is a massacre.

I urge all unionists to educate themselves about the situation and to have the moral courage to stand against the war crimes being perpetrated by Israel.

]]> By: Yehuda Erdman http://hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/comment-page-4/#comment-275345 Yehuda Erdman Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:29:05 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/#comment-275345 I thought Eric had written a well argued case trying to introduce some balance. It is just plain amazing to see how much depth of feeling there is in just a selection of the very large number of comments above. Clearly though many of the comments are fueled by the authors existing pre-conceptions, which inevitably denies more reasoned arguments. Let me state my views which are that Hamas asked for a military response from Israel by refusing to renew the ceasefire, and no one should now be surprised that they got what they deserved. The big question is what comes next, and if anyone bothers to read the English language versions of Israeli papers like Haaretz on the net, they will see that Israeli society and politicians are deeply divided on this. Here is the hallmark of a true democracy, which encourages public participation in these momentous issues. By the way the Supreme Court in Israel has ordered that more journalists must be allowed into Gaza to report what is going on. Personally and together with colleagues in Meretz either in the UK, USA or Israel we assert that Israel should very quickly unilaterally restore a ceasefire. The reasoning is that a ground offensive will be messy, unpredictable in outcome and difficult to end decisively. The precedent in Lebanon War II showed that the fighting there actually strengthened Hitzbulah, and despite the fact that Israeli forces actually hit them very much harder than Hitzbulah admitted, they were still able to claim a propaganda victory. Many like myself also argue that the economic blockade of Gaza has been a strategic mistake and should end completely. I thought Eric had written a well argued case trying to introduce some balance. It is just plain amazing to see how much depth of feeling there is in just a selection of the very large number of comments above. Clearly though many of the comments are fueled by the authors existing pre-conceptions, which inevitably denies more reasoned arguments.
Let me state my views which are that Hamas asked for a military response from Israel by refusing to renew the ceasefire, and no one should now be surprised that they got what they deserved. The big question is what comes next, and if anyone bothers to read the English language versions of Israeli papers like Haaretz on the net, they will see that Israeli society and politicians are deeply divided on this. Here is the hallmark of a true democracy, which encourages public participation in these momentous issues.
By the way the Supreme Court in Israel has ordered that more journalists must be allowed into Gaza to report what is going on.
Personally and together with colleagues in Meretz either in the UK, USA or Israel we assert that Israel should very quickly unilaterally restore a ceasefire. The reasoning is that a ground offensive will be messy, unpredictable in outcome and difficult to end decisively. The precedent in Lebanon War II showed that the fighting there actually strengthened Hitzbulah, and despite the fact that Israeli forces actually hit them very much harder than Hitzbulah admitted, they were still able to claim a propaganda victory.
Many like myself also argue that the economic blockade of Gaza has been a strategic mistake and should end completely.

]]> By: Yehuda Erdman http://hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/comment-page-4/#comment-275344 Yehuda Erdman Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:29:02 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/#comment-275344 I thought Eric had written a well argued case trying to introduce some balance. It is just plain amazing to see how much depth of feeling there is in just a selection of the very large number of comments above. Clearly though many of the comments are fueled by the authors existing pre-conceptions, which inevitably denies more reasoned arguments. Let me state my views which are that Hamas asked for a military response from Israel by refusing to renew the ceasefire, and no one should now be surprised that they got what they deserved. The big question is what comes next, and if anyone bothers to read the English language versions of Israeli papers like Haaretz on the net, they will see that Israeli society and politicians are deeply divided on this. Here is the hallmark of a true democracy, which encourages public participation in these momentous issues. By the way the Supreme Court in Israel has ordered that more journalists must be allowed into Gaza to report what is going on. Personally and together with colleagues in Meretz either in the UK, USA or Israel we assert that Israel should very quickly unilaterally restore a ceasefire. The reasoning is that a ground offensive will be messy, unpredictable in outcome and difficult to end decisively. The precedent in Lebanon War II showed that the fighting there actually strengthened Hitzbulah, and despite the fact that Israeli forces actually hit them very much harder than Hitzbulah admitted, they were still able to claim a propaganda victory. Many like myself also argue that the economic blockade of Gaza has been a strategic mistake and should end completely. I thought Eric had written a well argued case trying to introduce some balance. It is just plain amazing to see how much depth of feeling there is in just a selection of the very large number of comments above. Clearly though many of the comments are fueled by the authors existing pre-conceptions, which inevitably denies more reasoned arguments.
Let me state my views which are that Hamas asked for a military response from Israel by refusing to renew the ceasefire, and no one should now be surprised that they got what they deserved. The big question is what comes next, and if anyone bothers to read the English language versions of Israeli papers like Haaretz on the net, they will see that Israeli society and politicians are deeply divided on this. Here is the hallmark of a true democracy, which encourages public participation in these momentous issues.
By the way the Supreme Court in Israel has ordered that more journalists must be allowed into Gaza to report what is going on.
Personally and together with colleagues in Meretz either in the UK, USA or Israel we assert that Israel should very quickly unilaterally restore a ceasefire. The reasoning is that a ground offensive will be messy, unpredictable in outcome and difficult to end decisively. The precedent in Lebanon War II showed that the fighting there actually strengthened Hitzbulah, and despite the fact that Israeli forces actually hit them very much harder than Hitzbulah admitted, they were still able to claim a propaganda victory.
Many like myself also argue that the economic blockade of Gaza has been a strategic mistake and should end completely.

]]> By: zkharya http://hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/comment-page-4/#comment-274752 zkharya Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:53:35 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/#comment-274752 "So you recognise the “legitimacy” of the same German state which implemented the Nazi policies?" No. I just said had it offered those in the Warsaw ghetto their own state in half historical Germany (or anywhere, really, probably), I doubt they would have refused to recognize the state that offered it to them. "and also, if they had been demanding Germany retreat from occupied territory and let htose it had exiled return to their lands, then yes, they would have been correct" You mean you've a had a chance to think about what I wrote and that, in fact, it makes sense? Sure. Well, the Germans hadn't been exiled from Germany, ever, and had conquered a vast empire beyond historical Germany, but I doubt the resistance fighters of the Warsaw ghetto would have refused a state in half of historical Germany, or anywhere, even, nonetheless. “So you recognise the “legitimacy” of the same German state which implemented the Nazi policies?”

No. I just said had it offered those in the Warsaw ghetto their own state in half historical Germany (or anywhere, really, probably), I doubt they would have refused to recognize the state that offered it to them.

“and also, if they had been demanding Germany retreat from occupied territory and let htose it had exiled return to their lands, then yes, they would have been correct”

You mean you’ve a had a chance to think about what I wrote and that, in fact, it makes sense? Sure.

Well, the Germans hadn’t been exiled from Germany, ever, and had conquered a vast empire beyond historical Germany, but I doubt the resistance fighters of the Warsaw ghetto would have refused a state in half of historical Germany, or anywhere, even, nonetheless.

]]> By: la mano de d10s http://hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/comment-page-4/#comment-274271 la mano de d10s Wed, 31 Dec 2008 04:54:04 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/#comment-274271 and also, if they had been demanding Germany retreat from occupied territory and let htose it had exiled return to their lands, then yes, they would have been correct and also, if they had been demanding Germany retreat from occupied territory and let htose it had exiled return to their lands, then yes, they would have been correct

]]> By: la mano de d10s http://hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/comment-page-4/#comment-274270 la mano de d10s Wed, 31 Dec 2008 04:53:01 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/#comment-274270 "I doubt any of them would have refused to recognise the legitimacy of a German state in return for one of their own in half of historical Germany." So you recognise the "legitimacy" of the same German state which implemented the Nazi policies? this tells us much about the inconsistencies of bourgeois liberal ideologues. “I doubt any of them would have refused to recognise the legitimacy of a German state in return for one of their own in half of historical Germany.”

So you recognise the “legitimacy” of the same German state which implemented the Nazi policies?

this tells us much about the inconsistencies of bourgeois liberal ideologues.

]]> By: zkharya http://hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/comment-page-4/#comment-274111 zkharya Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:39:20 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/#comment-274111 "No doubt Lee & co. would have condemned the violence of the fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto if they’d been around then." I doubt any of them would have refused to recognise the legitimacy of a German state in return for one of their own in half of historical Germany. “No doubt Lee & co. would have condemned the violence of the fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto if they’d been around then.”

I doubt any of them would have refused to recognise the legitimacy of a German state in return for one of their own in half of historical Germany.

]]> By: jane http://hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/comment-page-4/#comment-274110 jane Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:38:40 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/#comment-274110 The last bit of your post undermines the general thrust of your argument. If you want to argue that actual numbers are what we should be focusing on, then let's count the numbers of people killed in the past 60 or so years by all the regimes that have been involved in mass killings. We can then work out who are the most profligate offender. We can then keep a tally of who's the worst out of Hamas and the IDF. Simple! The last bit of your post undermines the general thrust of your argument. If you want to argue that actual numbers are what we should be focusing on, then let’s count the numbers of people killed in the past 60 or so years by all the regimes that have been involved in mass killings.

We can then work out who are the most profligate offender.

We can then keep a tally of who’s the worst out of Hamas and the IDF.

Simple!

]]> By: The Hasbara Buster http://hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/comment-page-4/#comment-274088 The Hasbara Buster Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:56:23 +0000 http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/12/29/the-left-israel-and-the-%e2%80%9cholocaust%e2%80%9d-in-gaza/#comment-274088 I will add though that the use of the word “holocaust” in respect of the current situation is abhorrent. I have just <a href="http://thehasbarabuster.blogspot.com/2008/12/gaza-food-for-thought-or-derision.html" rel="nofollow">argued as much</a> on my blog. I will add though that the use of the word “holocaust” in respect of the current situation is abhorrent.

I have just argued as much on my blog.

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