Harry's Place

This is a great idea. I hope very much many people will go.

May G-d forgive Deborah Fink.

by the Church of England vicar, in whose building the event took place.

What religious tradition is the COE descended from? It seems a curious mix of atheism and leftism. Does Stonehenge have anything to do with it? Crop circles?

What ghastly caterwauling.

YossiUK, the trouble is, He probably will. Now, if it was Allah (or Mohammed’s sock puppet, as Ali Sina calls him) then she’d be flayed and roasted alive.

I can’t stomach watching Deborah Fink. I have to force myself to read about her.

How long will this irreligious little left-wing sect continue to be Britain’s official church?

How long will this irreligious little left-wing sect continue to be Britain’s official church?

If you want a picture of the future, imagine Deborah Fink singing carols in your ear – forever.

“May G-d forgive Deborah Fink.”

Can one forgive self centered narcissistic idiocy?

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine Deborah Fink singing carols in your ear – forever.”

That’s another picture of hell.

Somehow I can’t imagine that any Muslim Imam would allow people to use his Mosque as a venue for people to perform a recitation of satirical verses based on altering the words of religious texts about the birth of the prophet Mohammed – even in support of the Palestinian cause.

When she was playing the piano I had an overwhelming urge to punch her really hard in the head and watch her fall off her piano stool! (unfortunately, it’s just a youtube clip) grr……Is she really a jew? REALLY?!

She sounds exceptionally stupid when she opens her mouth to speak (although sadly, she’s not a terrible singer).

An atheist conducting a carol service in a church….is she REALLY a jew?!

Not very tactful of her to speak pointedly to what *supposedly* happened 2000 years ago when speaking about the birth of baby Jesus.

I like the point where she says that what is happening today in Bethlehem is much more important than whay supposedly happened 2000 years ago. Of course, for Christians, the birth of Jesus eclipses all other events past and present in importance.

Such sensitivity. Such respect for her hosts!

Ami – snap! ;-)

What religious tradition is the COE descended from? It seems a curious mix of atheism and leftism.

Not wrong there. I was in contact with two Anglican priests while I was a student. One was on the council of the British end of the Christian Peace Council, a Soviet front organization, the other took his students to wonder at the feet of Yasser Arafat in Ramallah. Bleurgh.

Such respect for her hosts!

This part of the CofE, unlike the Evangelicals and Anglo-Catholics, neither of whom would dream of hosting such a service, couldn’t give a monkey’s whether Jesus was born 2000 years ago or not.

She has such a wonderful voice, such lyrical imagination and such a refreshing aversion to political cliche.

Well, with the bearded goat now running the C of E into the ground are you supprised?

This church is a joke, it stands for nothing – except White liberal guilt.

Give me Sarah Palin any day.. at least the woman has a spine.

***

I like the point where she says that what is happening today in Bethlehem is much more important than whay supposedly happened 2000 years ago. Of course, for Christians, the birth of Jesus eclipses all other events past and present in importance.

Such sensitivity. Such respect for her hosts!

To say nothing of what’s actually happening to Christians in Bethlehem today at the hands of those very people Deborah and her ilk weep over. You’d think maybe someone in that assorted little liberal troupe of CoE goblins would point that out.

Five settlement rings. Four falling bombs. Three trench guns. Two trampled doves. And an uprooted olive tree.

Okay. Now I know what’s going on in the Middle East.

Thank you Deborah for exposing those lies about french hens and partridges.

It IS completely different now.

Criticise Israel get label anti-Semitic. Again. Plus ca change.

The most important part of the life of Jesus on earth was his death and resurrection, not his birth. Allowing this stupid little event to take place at all would revolt most Christians although, perhaps, such groups as the Friends (Quakers) and Unitarians would go further.

The woman’s an idiot without a doubt, but what’s your point? She is one of so many idiots of all stripes, both left & right, and her behaviour in this video, egregious though it may be, hardly merits her inclusion in the pantheon of antisemites. To be honest, it’s this kind of insignificant rubbish that detracts from the genuinely important stuff Harry’s Place does.

Who Cares?! is absolutely right. Look, the woman is silly, but also totally insignificant. What is the point for HP to act as her echo chamber? I mean, some idiots are significant, dangerous and deserve attention: Atzmon and Greenstein come to mind. But Deborah Fink? Why bother, let her make a m0nkey of herself while we maintain dignified silence.

Good point. Although she was on CNN.

CNN? maybe Deb Fink has got a singing tour booked?

and if so, will TheIrie be the Roadie?

More to the point, why juxtapose this with old European anti-Semitism and more holocaust denial. These are completely unrelated. You may disagree with Fink, but this is not anti-Semitism. This really shows your shallow political abuse of what should be a serious matter. Anti-Semitism is reduced to shrill rhetoric. But this is nothing new of course.

Fink is a joke, as are Atzmon and Greenstein, in that most people regard them as deranged idiots. It is sad that the vicar of this church allowed this disgusting, sad and pathetic performance to go ahead. It is a return to the stereotyping of Jews in the medieval mystery plays: he should be ashamed of himself, but won’t be. The lack of a response from the church leadership is evidence of the debasement that anglicanism has suffered. Its not very different from the Green party or the Lib-Dems in this regard.

TheIrie, you need to review the EUMC definition. If you are able.

The juxtaposition does at first blush seem tenuous. In the circumstances I beg your indulgence to repost the comment I made on an earlier thread, as it contains a salutory demonstration of more sinister agendas the ill considered antics of Fink and co end up furthering, even if Fink is not motivated with the same animus. Dolus eventualis, is the relevant principle in Roman Dutch law.

The service at St James reported here:
http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2008/12/lightning-rod-f.html?cid=141048278#comments

In the comments on the times site, there is a link to
http://seismicshock.blogspot.com/2008/11/amos-trust-and-new-theological.html
Here we learn that Just peace on their site boast:
“These ‘alternative’ carols were composed by Just Peace UK after an idea from Rev. Garth Hewitt of the Amos Trust whose first stanza of ‘O Little Town of Bethlehem’ is being used here.”
seismic shock tells us firstly, that Garth Hewitt is reportedly related and closely associated with one Ibrahim Hewitt of Interpal. (The comments about this on this site are instructive.) As is his colleague at Amos trust, the Rev Sizer. Sizer’s theology is of the viciously antisemitic supersessionary school which after 2000 years of rhetoric fuelling Jewish persecution is thankfully largely on the wane among Christians today. But Sizer’s writings have, according to this link from seismic, attracted many far right admirers of the Judenhass school:
http://www.zionismontheweb.org/blogs/index.php?blog=9&p=367&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
Where you find among these admirers..
“And then Israel Shamir, (alias Schmerlin, Robert David, Vassili Krasevsky and Jöran Jermas), so anti-Semitic that even Palestinians objected, also advertises a book by Sizer, and includes his site among a list of links – along with Holocaust revisionist sites, Jewish Tribal Review and an article from Aaargh.”

As the blogger there concludes:
“As I have said before, I suppose Sizer didn’t ask to be included in these rabidly anti-Semitic and White Supremacist sites, but perhaps he might ask himself why they like him so much. After all, he likes us to think that he is not anti-Semitic, merely anti-Zionist.”

TheIrie, one would have hoped that, after all these years on HP, you’ll develop more sensitivity to history and its meanings.

Deborah Fink is not an anti-Semite, she is just a silly girl. But she willfully, like a small child trying to shock the grown-ups, is using imagery that, during the ages, was associated with the worst of Christian anti-Semitism.

Imagine a demonstration against, say, criminality in a Black American suburb, in which participants wear white sheets and hoods. And then perhaps you’ll see how distasteful it is.

ami – very interesting. The anglican church appears to be somewhat out of step with the rest of the public sector in regard to its diversity policy

ami – very interesting. The anglican church appears to be somewhat out of step with the rest of the public sector in regard to its diversity policy

If I hadn’t seen it I wouldn’t believe it.

Jewish Trotskyists grovelling and davening on their bellies in front of Christian antisemites in a church.

This is really the Jewish critical tradition. Don’t you remember Marx putting on an Easter Passion in Victorian London about Jewish capitalism?

I recall Rosa Luxembourg bringing the radical Jews together at Warsaw Cathedral to draw attention to the evil of Jewish pornography and the yiddish subversion of European morality.

Don’t you remember Trotsky’s Christmas midnight mass in St Basil’s to subvert the Jewish Patriotic War of 1914?

And Abram Leon’s Witsun Parade at Auschwitz in 1944, when the Jewish Underground made the point that it was the terrible injustices of Versaille, encouraged by the mainstream Jewish leadership of Europe, which had led to the current understandable but mistaken upsurge of antisemitism.

ahh Muffin, don’t waste your breath, TheIrie has completed his training as a living replacement for Osmium and he’s unlikely to change now :)

and I should say that, in all fairness to Roadies, most of them have greater mental flexibility and wits than TheIrie will ever have

Andrew seeks to ignore racism, quelle suprise.

“Finally, here is Deborah Fink, singing carols “asajew” in a Church, at an event that has been sponsored and defended by the Church of England vicar, in whose building the event took place.”

Rev, Charles Headley does not ‘own’ this church. There are 3 other members of this particular church’s clergy.

You’ll also note that Rev. Headley is vice-chairman of the Progressive Christianity Network, whose tagline is ‘where contemporary thought and understanding matter as much as scripture and tradition’. No doubt an organisation which would find many advocates on this forum.

The carols were written by, according to the Church Times, a Jewish parody-writer.

I’m not quite sure how anti-Israeli carols which the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Carey, has condemned, fit into the prevailing narrative here of anti-semitism.

No doubt for some, it’s one small step…

“Since the Second Vatican Council, and in particular, the Declaration of Nostra Aetate, things haven’t been that bad, theologically speaking.”

The assertion that the section dealing with Jews in the Nostra Aetate declaration was somehow a mild improvement in terms of doctrine strikes me as weaseling. At least you’ve provided a link to the fairly comprehensive Wiki.

Let me be clear: I find the assumption that somehow Christianity exported anti-semitism to the Middle East and co-opted the Palestinians fallacious.

Debbie Fink commenting on Just Peace:

It really pays to be controversial. I can¹t think of any other events which have had so much media coverage. It is interesting that the right-wing media are more interested than the left-wing. The important thing is, it¹s opened up debate and has challenged right-wing Jewish and Christian bigots who are more worried about the church hosting these carols than the situation that has provoked them….(Mmm, this reminds me of something else I once said…..).

I guess she is referring to the time when she referred to the State of Israel as a satanic state and the resulting furore led her to having to quit voluntarily of forcefully her position on Jews for Justice for Palestinians.

Fink has so far this week had two posts removed by Yahoo for Abuse. She is utterly deranged. I am told that she is about to have a third removed.

The CNN clip you posted David has 20 seconds of Geoffrey Smith criticising the sham carols. In fact he recorded 5 minutes of material. The other side got 8 times as long in the broadcast.

Astonishingly The Times today publishes a letter from Fink that seems to say that Jews can’t be antisemitic:

There have been two articles recently (Michael Gove, Dec 1 and Ruth Gledhill, Dec 2) about the alternative Nine Lessons and Carols held at St James’s Church, Piccadilly, last week, neither of which explain why we put on this event.

The event was put on as a wake-up call at a time of year when much of the Western world focuses on Bethlehem, without knowing that it is surrounded by an apartheid wall. Having sung these carols out of doors for six years, we felt that it was time to sing them in an apt, affordable, acoustically good and aesthetically pleasing venue and by doing so, hoped to reach a wider audience. Many churches agreed to hosting the carols but St James’s, which is also a well-known concert venue, was the most suitable.

***As some Christians fear accusations of anti-Semitism, it was important for Jews to be involved in the event. Michael Gove omitted to mention that the event was organised by Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods, otherwise how could anyone believe his claim that the event is anti-Semitic? *** Far from being anti-Semitic, the carols are a protest against Israel’s inhumane occupation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Crying out for justice in this way is a very Jewish and Christian thing to do. Israel’s behaviour, and ignoring what is going on, is not.

“Many churches agreed to hosting the carols ..” is a misprint. It should be “Many churches refused to host the carols ..”

Fink seems to model herself on Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, the late unlamented Iraqi Minister of Information.

“They are nowhere near Baghdad. Their allegations are a cover-up for their failure”

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5281591.ece

interestingly, Ms. Fink signed her self as “Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods”, which if you follow that leads to http://www.bigcampaign.org/index.php?page=jews-for-boycotting-israeli-goods

as Ruth Tenne stated previously: “In order to challenge the stronghold Israel has on Palestine and its fledgling economy, a group of Jewish and Israeli residents in Britain was set up as a subsection of the campaign undertaken by Boycott Israeli Goods – BIG (www.bigcampaign.org.uk) . “

http://www.jai-pal.org/content.php?page=510

Engage covered it before, see http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=981

“In the Middle Ages, it came to be believed that, as a result of speaking these words, all male Jews were cursed by a sort of menstruation-like affliction. The only cure was drinking the blood of a Christian.” – David T.

This is not in Scripture. Christ says no such thing – nor do Christians if indeed they profess the Faith.

“This part of the CofE, unlike the Evangelicals and Anglo-Catholics, neither of whom would dream of hosting such a service, couldn’t give a monkey’s whether Jesus was born 2000 years ago or not.” – hasan pristina.

If it is part of the CoE. One church in this diocese is in ‘limited’ congregation with its bishop because he, unlike they, is not homophobic. But people have the right to criticise the CoE (or Israel’s policies for that matter). It is the violence or spitefulness of those expressions which is to be deplored.

When I was knee high to a grasshopper I was made to sing ‘Onward Christian Soldiers Marching as to War’ and much other nonsense. Hewn from slate-quarrying Methodiists who had no windows in their temples I was made aware of the trodden path. I refused to follow it, I refused to drink from the well’s dark waters of being unable to think for myself; and therefore the attempted brainwashing of the faithless child did not succeed, even though I had won the silver coin, a sixpence, for being the first in Sunday School to learn by heart a piece of religuous doggerel.
The many temples to illiteracy and obedience that once littered the slopes of Yr Wyddfa in places like Bethel and Salem and heard harmonious singing three times on Sundays now stand silent and neglected; as beacons of hope for a future we can all enjoy together.
The video? It’s old hat. Schoolboy level. If that’s the best they can do there’s nothing to worry about. It will go away. It will pass.

In two weeks’ time there will be an Israeli Street Market in NW London. Come and buy your Chanukah, Christmas and late Diwali presents. Israeli craftspeople are coming to sell their wares.

Where – Outside Waitrose, Temple Fortune, NW11

When – 14-16 December 10.30am – 5pm

Please forward this to your friends. How better to respond to the would-be boycotters than for all the stalls to sell out …

Surely that’s from the Day Today, the voice over certainly sounds like Colaterly Sisters…

Asajew I will have to come to the Israeli Street Market and sing my deranged songs

Here is what Gove (nice but dim) wrote on this:

“One thing that has sent me ballistic this week is the decision by St James’s Piccadilly to host a special service in which the words of traditional carols have been rewritten to convey an anti-Israeli message. The service is part of a broader campaign to encourage the boycott of goods from Israel, much as we once boycotted goods from South Africa.

Apart from pointing out that declining to buy things on the ground that they’re made by Jewish people is not, historically, a good road to go down, I am staggered that people should equate a democracy struggling to preserve human rights in the face of terrorist assault with the apartheid regime. And I am speechless at a church’s collaboration with this festival of anti-Semitism. So I shall use another’s words and ask that they be forgiven, for clearly, they cannot know the enormity of what they do.”

This is worse than David’s effort. “declining to buy things on the ground that they’re made by Jewish people” … “festival of anti-Semitism” Unbelievably dishonest. Once again, criticism of Israel is equated with anti-Semitism. How can he look at himself in the mirror after writing that. Moron.

Maybe Lenin is right, and its people like Gove and David who are the real anti-Semites.

Jerusalem Post carries a good article on the exhibition / book launch at the Gallery. Its at:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702419936&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

“asSajew” why is D Fink singing Xmas carols at all?

PS I’ll be at the NW11 Street Market

Yes TheIriot you are right.

David is a moron.

Lenin is right.

Criticism of Israel is dishonestly equated with anti-semitism.

Now go away you nasty, vacuous, little creep.

Matt

One last shameless plug for book & gallery. See at Engage:

http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/index.php

I think that I’ll just have, TheIrie, to take it once for all that Modernity is right and you are a cause lost to reason. But, here is a last try.

You are a despicable creature, TheIrie. Worse than the lowest of the low, The Evil in its full manifestation, a human slug. Compared to you, a demented neo-Nazi paedophile Chelsea supporter is a monument to humanity and reason.

I see, you don’t like that? Once again, a criticism of TheIrie is equated to anti_Iriism. Unbelievably dishonest!

Matthew was a jew – anyone who thinks that his gospel is meant to attack all jews must be stupid. After all the founders Peter etc of Christianity were Jews and they never renounced their jewish heritage. Of course racism is stupid

George – Matthew’s not the problem, its those Christians that came along later interpreted and explained his work that found Jew hatred so appealing/useful.

The problem, in a nutshell, was that Jews were VERY VERY unpopular after the two revolts against Rome.

So were Christians – partly because they were “subversive” but partly because they were obviously essentially Jews.

Accordingly, the early Church put a fair amount of effort into proving that they weren’t Jews, after all.

Come Constantine, and the New Testament had to be read to ensure that Rome didn’t get the blame for killing its own Patron God – which wouldn’t really have done at all.

So, obviously, his blood be on us…

Interesting, George Orwell. Does this reasoning also apply to the appalling Deborah Fink? Matthew was a 1st Century A.D. Messianic Jew, so any assumption that he thought as we in the 21st Century do is just stupid.

If anyone feels they would like to complain to the Archbeardy of Canterbury about this racist jackanapery, his address is

Lambeth Palace
London
SE1 7JU

Fink waxed very indignant about Gove in one of her witterings, that he had written in support of Israel – and he is NOT EVEN JEWISH! (Her block capitals) So for her if you speak asajew you should be anti Israel. If you are notajew, it is a cheek for you to speak pro Israel. If you speak for Israel and are Jewish, well then, I guess you speak as thewrongkindofjew.

In, the U.S. there is a “Christian” group called Sabeel. They push the line that the “ZioNazis, ” are killing Jesus Christ again, as incarnated in the Palestinians. Lots of leftish Protestant and Unitarian Universalist churches here sponsor their talks.

“Matthew was a 1st Century A.D. Messianic Jew, so any assumption that he thought as we in the 21st Century do is just stupid.”
I think it is reasonable to think that he did not hate all jews – he was one. Most people do not hate their own race.

If it is part of the CoE. One church in this diocese is in ‘limited’ congregation with its bishop because he, unlike they, is not homophobic.

St James Piccadilly describes itself as part of the Diocese of London. Even churches with ‘flying bishops’ are still part of the Anglican Communion.

If you wish to complain to the boss of Mr Headley and the people at St James Piccadilly, complain to the Bishop of London, the Rt. Revd. Richard Chartres here.

Maybe Lenin is right, and its people like Gove and David who are the real anti-Semites.

Once again, the same old Livingstone Formulation.

The assertion that the section dealing with Jews in the Nostra Aetate declaration was somehow a mild improvement in terms of doctrine strikes me as weaseling.

Nostra Aetate has facilitated a great improvement in the behaviour of the Catholic Church, though recent comments about a Papal visit to Israel being depended on destroying memorials at Yad VaShem shows that there is still a long way to go.

However, this particular outrage has been facilitated by members of the CofE, particularly the part which has revived the mediaeval anti-semitic doctrine of supercessionism. This is deliberately aimed at wiping out the kind of progress in Anglican thinking parallel to Nostra Aetate.

“Matthew was a 1st Century A.D. Messianic Jew, so any assumption that he thought as we in the 21st Century do is just stupid”

There is no evidence at all that Matthew *was* anything beyond question-begging gospel-quoting. The evidence that he existed is absent. The evidence that he did not exist is persuasive. As it is with Jesus. Be careful when you assign historical truths to mythic chimera. Think Zeus and Goldilocks and then realise the idiocy of ascribing any historical reality to these fairy-tale figures.

Accordingly, the early Church put a fair amount of effort into proving that they weren’t Jews, after all.

Including, but not limited to, changing the day of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

So, once again, George, why does this not apply to Deborah Fink? She does not have the excuse of having a 1st Century A.D. mindset, but has been exposed to exactly the same education system and perceptions as the rest of us.

Belm, fair enough. I was in a dottled state when I wrote that, and meant to emphasise that the author of the Gospel was almost certainly not the Evangelist.

I can only assume, to judge by the arabic letters, that the poster above comes from the Mid-east.

Islam is predicated on falsifying Christian ( and Jewish) scripture, and one of those falsifications lay in denying that Christ was crucified, died and ressurrected.

The poster suggests that just such a thing happened by employing the word ‘again’.

If this was put out by Hamas or any other islamist outfit, then those outfits are blaspheming Islam and committing a very grevious sin by suggesting that Christ’s crucifixtion really happened.

Mohammed would not like that, and would probably have their tongues cut out!

And leaving aside Matthew, Mark, Luke and John a moment, David T. misses the target somewhat by not elaborating on the flight of Christians from Bethlehem ( and elsewhere in the region), a massive exodus that has very little to do with the Israeli occupation.

TheIrie wrote:

“Maybe Lenin is right, and its people like Gove and David who are the real anti-Semites.”

sadly, TheIrie, you might be taken in by the SWP’s favourite blogger, Richard Seymour’s vacant and long winded intellectual dross but it does not really work when compared with what the SWP actually DO

1. remember that the SWP hosted an ant-Jewish racist for FOUR years

2. that’s four years of supporting Gilad Atzmon’s essentalising of Jews

3. some four years after being told by Jewish Socialists that Atzmon had some nasty and strange racist views, the SWP kept supporting him

4. and as far as the SWP leadership is concerned, nothing went wrong

so, now you would have us believe that the SWP are somehow “expert” on antisemitism?

well, yes, they are good at pandering to it, fairly nimble at defending it, but no, when they faced it at their premier yearly event, Marxism xxxx, they were just complicit with it.

But as you know, pointing out Muslim genocidal racist rage is an insult on Islam and must be met with arson, rioting and death threats. Inshallah.

All I can say is that billions of Christians have to thank the Jews for killing Christ, if you accept that argument for a moment.

No Crucifixion – No Christianty.

Probably Jesus would have made them all Jews had he lived and taught his beliefs.

Then, if you believe that everything is God’s will then whoever killed Christ was an agent of God’s will – and so blameless.

Why does this bit of screaming obvious logic not appeal to some of them?

That may or may not taint Jewish-Christian harmony.

I have seen Muslim posters (yes I’m 100% sure) try and dig at Jews for being “Christ Killers”, and yet Islam doesn’t accept Jesus as the Son Of God or that he rose from the dead.

As a non-religious person (as created by God to be so) I don’t really get the intensity of belief in this.

Doh!!!! John P, sorry, you covered the same ground and I posted before I read yours.

Hope you forgive me. I did appoint you Admiral of The Fleet somewhere in a thread that time forgot ………… on a lone distant planet……………… in another galaxy……………. a creature stirs from its slumber ……………… (Cue “Thus Spoke Zarathustra”)

Re: so and so was a 3rd,5th,7th century Jew/Muslim/Christian who said…and sother uch remarks;
The writings of 2,000 years ago should always be read on the basis that the people who wrote them believed, I mean really believed, no question about it, some very odd things: eg. that the planet they were living on was circa 5,000 years old (max) and that the potential life span of a planet and its human inhabitants could be measured in (by today’s standard) tiny 1,000 year units and that the end must therefore be nigh. They had no comprehension of a planet billions of years old, let alone millions of years old. We, as people living in enlightened times, must always keep ‘the facts’ in our minds lest we also go astray.

Muffin – “I think that I’ll just have, TheIrie, to take it once for all that Modernity is right and you are a cause lost to reason.” Well, confront me with reason, and I’ll try to respond. But, Gove’s words are the most transparent equation of criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism that I can remember in a long time. There is no escaping that – the charge of anti-Semitism is there in black and white. David’s juxtaposition of ancient Christian anti-Semitism and holocaust denial with Fink’s stunt is the second most transparent effort to deflect criticism of Israel I can remember. This is so obvious, half a dozen HP commenters even acknowledge it.

Astonishingly The Times today publishes a letter from Fink that seems to say that Jews can’t be antisemitic:

BRAZEN BERTIE

They can be, although in this case, I’ll settle for objectionable idiot. Mel Philips (whom I’d imagined her to be ages with until seeing this) has columns in newspapers, and doesn’t have to settle for letter writing. Even Tony Greenstein gets onto the Guardian’s website. However, she is more than the insignificant objectionable idiot others have called her, surely? She retains a spoiling public presence which cannot be attributed to this blog.

Not very tactful of her to speak pointedly to what *supposedly* happened 2000 years ago when speaking about the birth of baby Jesus.

AMI

Yes, I noticed that. This should set her apart from Nicholas Donin or, even, Gilad Atzmon who have embraced Jew-hating belief systems. She remains convinced that her being Jewish brings a special right to be heard. It’s fantastic confusion mixed with self-aggrandizement.

David’s juxtaposition of ancient Christian anti-Semitism and holocaust denial with Fink’s stunt is the second most transparent effort to deflect criticism of Israel I can remember.

If you’d stopped after the first clause in that sentence, I’d have been forced to agree with you. Thank you for carrying on, and getting the co-opting in of Jew-hatred imagery mixed up with criticism of Israel.

TheIrie,

shorter version:

so the SWP fucked up, big time, for FOUR years hosting an anti-Jewish racist and now you think that they are sages on antisemitism??

That is called changing the subject Mod.

TheIrie: For the last several years I’ve been confronting you with reason to little avail.

I don’t speak for Gove, I speak only for myself. And, as I’ve already written above, Deborah Fink is not anti-Semite, she is just a silly little girl. But this silly little girl is using imagery which, in history, has been associated with anti-Semitism.

Racism, TheIrie, has its own symbols, tropes and language. Anti-racists are aware of that and consistently keep their language and discourse away from these symbols, tropes and language. So, unless you are Ayman al-Zawahiri or John Pilger, you don’t call Obama “Uncle Tom” or “house slave” – this doesn’t mean that you are not allowed to criticise Obama, in case you didn’t notice. Likewise, it might be a good idea, in the case of Jews, to lay off Jesus, carols, crucifixion and all that stuff. (Ask yourself why so many pogroms happened round Easter.) Deborah Fink is not more an anti-Semite than John Pilger is an anti-Black racist, but like him she is happy to use racist imagery to provoke.

It is her right – as it is my right to regard this as distasteful. And this has absolutely nothing to do with the right to criticise.

Deborah Fink is an infantile exhibitionist who craves attention. Why give it to her?

TheIrie,

NO, it is NOT called changing the subject,

again, you are holding Seymour and the SWP up as having good ideas and insights on the topic of antisemitism

I am merely pointing out that they FUCKED up, major, on that very topic for four years

do you get the point? or shall I give you another example?

Poor Deborah.

She knows of no other way to express her Judaism or Jewishness than by writing and performing anti-Israeli or Zionist Jewish Christmas carols.

I.e. she knows of no other way to express her Judaism or Jewishness than by re-inventing traditional Christian anti-Judaism or Jewishness as neo-Christian anti-Israeli or Zionist Judaism or Jewishness.

The trouble is, she thinks or claims it is in nowise Christian, though it is, she says, in somewise Jewish.

She is confused. Like I said, a tragic figure, a Rahel Varnhagen.

Muffin – you seem to be saying that the Christian Church is synonymous with anti-Semitic imagery. That’s pretty offensive. It’s anti-Christian isn’t it (though, being anti-Christian is of course fine, not at all like being anti-Semitic). What you are saying then, is that to criticise Israel in a Church is anti-Semitic. Is that what you are saying? Can you be specific so that I can understand?

“Matthew was a jew – anyone who thinks that his gospel is meant to attack all jews must be stupid…”

Matthew was a follower of Jesus and a rebel against Judaism in much the same way as Greenstein and StinkyFinky are.

And haven’t you heard the saying that there is no advocate of virginity like a reformed whore?

No, TheIrie, it is not anti-Semitic to criticise Israel in a church (although I can think of more appropriate places). Yet, to criticise Israel using imagery that has been historically associated with Christian anti-Semitism is distasteful. Exactly, by the way, as using imagery of the Crusades to criticise Muslims, in particular in a church.

you seem to be saying that the Christian Church is synonymous with anti-Semitic imagery

I am saying that Christianity has been historically associated with prolonged and vicious anti-Semitism. This doesn’t of course mean that every Christian is an anti-Semite (certainly not nowadays), or that there was nothing but anti-Semitism in Christian–Jewish interaction. Those whose ears are made of flesh, not of tin, realise this and thread carefully.

TheIrie
People consider the “criticism of Israel” in the fink doggerel to be anti-Semitic because
(a) it is not based in fact or a balanced view
and
(b) it depicts Israel and Israelis in a negative manner that resembles the negative depictions of Jews in traditional anti-Semitism
and
(c) she holds Jews, not Israelis, responsible for the ‘crimes’ that she posits.

Please note that both points (a) and (b) are required to be present, as in this case, to demonstrate anti-Semitism. (c) is the icing on the cake. The filthy jew-hating christmas cake.

“I am saying that Christianity has been historically associated with prolonged and vicious anti-Semitism.” – well I completely agree, and that is exactly how I would put it. Its also worth noting that the modern Western system could be well described as based on “Judeo-Christian values” (as it often is), and that today in the West, rightly and happily, Christians and Jews get along quite nicely.

“Yet, to criticise Israel using imagery that has been historically associated with Christian anti-Semitism is distasteful.” OK, this is my problem. I don’t understand what “imagery” you are talking about. Can you explain?

TheIrie,

had you even attempted to read those books I suggested then you would have seen the poor taste and implications of that Christian imagery

whilst this might be less than perfect, you’ll at least get some flavour of the issue from the Centre for the Study of Historical Christian Antisemitism
http://www.hcacentre.org/TableofContents.html
and
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Christian.html

please, do try a read a bit

Mod – I understand Christian anti-Semitism is historically, and in some places still, very serious. I don’t think it is serious in the CofE. And criticism of Israel in a Church in London is certainly not evidence of it.

Now TheIrie’s back onto the histrionic tantrums.

Muffin – you seem to be saying that the Christian Church is synonymous with anti-Semitic imagery. That’s pretty offensive.

I hope you are reminded of this every time you accuse Europe of historically racist attitudes in the slave-trade, amongst others.

It’s anti-Christian isn’t it (though, being anti-Christian is of course fine,

Bleep, bleep, straw-man alert!

not at all like being anti-Semitic).

Well, it isn’t. Because Jews are recognized as a distinct ethnic group in ways Christians aren’t; and I won’t bother challenging you to finding a single historical example of Christians in Europe, this side of the year dot, being pursued in ways Jews have been. Because you can’t.

“Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children”

These sixteen words have throughout the ages brought more harm & hostility to Jews, then anything written in any Islamic religious texts. Even the Anti-Semitism generated by modern Zionism hardly registers as pea size compared to the Everest size amount of Anti-Semitism that have flowed from these sixteen word, but maybe if the Apartheid State of Israel was to last two thousand years, the pea might one day overshadow Everest; however due to the demographic “timebomb” the Apartheid State will be lucky to survive the next couple of decades, without collapsing like it’s South African predecessor.

TheIrie
You use the words “criticism of Israel in a Church in London”. You use words to twist the truth. This was not “criticism”. The doggerel being sung did not confirm to any normal definition of “criticism”. Mocking, demonising, abusing, these are all words which are descriptive of the event in question.

You abuse language in order to represent yourself and your fellow anti-Israel bigots as rational and reasonable. You are wasting your time.

One question: do you agree with Fink that Israel is satanic?

Can you explain?

Jesus wept!

The story of Jesus, from the birth in the manger all the way to crucifixion, is the traditional fulcrum of Christian anti-Semitism, Jews being represented as the persecutors of the Messaiah. Yes, I know that this is not the only interpretation and that much (although not all) of contemporary Christianity doesn’t see it in this manner. But historically this is precisely how this was represented.

Not that long ago the very same CoE sponsored an official London Society for Promoting Conversion Among the Jews (http://www.jewish-history.com/occident/volume2/aug1844/shmad.html). I am not aware of similar societies for Muslims, or Buddhists, or animists, or whatsoever. Jews were historically at the bullseye of CoE and of other Christian denominations. And yes, Jews happens to be sensitive about it.

TheIrie wrote:

“Mod – I understand Christian anti-Semitism is historically, and in some places still, very serious.”

of course, YOU understand it**, that’s why you misread Muffin’s clear comments, time and again

that’s your problem you THINK you understand things, but in truth you have the depth of a spoon

try to re-read the thread with LESS of your customary literalism and without the dull slogans of dim witted SWPers echoing in your ears.

and do us all a favour, don’t assume that you KNOW something until you really do

please try to read a book once in a while.

—
**
that’s sarcasm

however due to the demographic “timebomb” the Apartheid State will be lucky to survive the next couple of decades, without collapsing like it’s South African predecessor.

Please describe how Israel is an ‘Apartheid State”/

Which demographic time-bomb? Doesn’t that have something to do with rekative numbers of people an all that?

Now you can see I am obviosuly stoopid and so don’t understand. Care to explain (so I can so thoroughly blow your arguments that you will have to cry) Of course, YOU know what you are talking about. Unless you are a parrot! Pretty Polly! Pretty Polly! Here have some cuttlefish while I change your Guardian.

something to remember: it is always best to ignore that type of Jew baiting

Muffin – this is nonsense. Its a Church in England in 2008. There is nothing remotely anti-Semitic about this carol service. Associating the story of Jesus with evil Jews is only done by idiots in history and probably some obscure modern day backwaters. This is contrived. And the criticism is of Israel. A state. Not Jews – a people. And the persecution by that state of Palestinian arabs is real, as you well know. This is why David and Gove cannot tolerate it.

Especially those posters who don’t even have the balls to adopt a standard moniker.

and I won’t bother challenging you to finding a single historical example of Christians in Europe, this side of the year dot, being pursued in ways Jews have been. Because you can’t.

Alec, the horrific treatment meted out to Balkan Christians by the Ottomans is quite comparable. That history has been muted since WWI, first because of the Soviet Union and the role Kemalist Turkey played in containing it, and then after WWII because we didn’t want to displease our Turkish partners in Nato.

In fact, I’d even say that some six centuries of Ottoman christaphobia resulted in more Orthodox deaths than european anti-semitism in Jewish deaths.

These sixteen words have throughout the ages brought more harm & hostility to Jews, then anything written in any Islamic religious texts.

Bullshit. Mohammed kicked off his ‘prophethood’ by wiping out the entire Jewish community of Medina, thereby making it entirely acceptable and moral for Muslims, no matter where they live, to have a go at Jews any time they like.

You can’t get worse than that.

Mosques all across the world churn out antisemitic tracts that make Hitler look like a candy-assed pansy.

You’re obviously unfamiliar with the conditions Jews live under in majority-Muslim countries or the existential threats Isreal has to live with on a daily basis.

And one has to wonder why the Jewish population of Europe, despite all the pogroms and antisemitism, was always so much higher than the Jewish population of the Muslim world.

Christian countries have even had Jewish leaders; Disraeli in England and Bruno Kreisky in Austria, for example.

Care to cite some equivalents in the Muslim world?

Yes, christian Europe was bad, but there’s worse.

Its a Church in England in 2008.

That’s right. It’s *a* church in England (which is also the Church of England). There are other Christian denominations. Are you going all Oxford Movement on us and suggesting the Church of England is the direct line inheritor of the original Christianity?

There is nothing remotely anti-Semitic about this carol service.

Of course there is. The degree to which it is is debatable, but an undertone there is. Have you listened to Fink’s interview? She links her decision to do so with the Nativity. Is she lying or mistaken, with only your superior insight to be trusted?

Alec, the horrific treatment meted out to Balkan Christians by the Ottomans is quite comparable.

Carefully, John, I was referring to Christian and then post-Christian ruled Europe, not territories on the continent of Europe (which would still exclude Armenians and Assyrians). Furthermore, I asked for treatment comparable to religiously-mandated antisemitism because denying violence against Christian populations would be pretty stupid considering the Reformation and the whole Eastern Orthodox jollyness.

Christian countries have even had Jewish leaders; Disraeli in England and Bruno Kreisky in Austria, for example.

Care to cite some equivalents in the Muslim world?

At least you admit you’re damning with faint praise. Those two examples occurred as part of the move to secularism. If I were so inclined, it would take me whole minutes to did up antisemitic-tinged attacks on Disraeli, at least.

I would then move on to the historical toleration of Jews in Islamic lands, and then name those involved with the Young Turk and various Arab nationalist movements of the early 20th Century. But I won’t, ‘cos it’d be meaningless.

TheIrie,

you probably look at the events and they leave you cold?

you don’t understand the fuss, why people might be a little bit annoyed at Deb Fink’s histrionics

that’s not because you are unintelligent, rather you lack the ability to see the world in anything other than 2 dimensions

so that’s why the SWP’s simplistic arguments resonate with you

and that’s why you constantly say “I understand that!”, only a minute later to remark “Can you explain that to me, again?”

in relation to this topic, you can’t appreciate that whilst YOU might not see anything insensitive about this performance that there are others who do find it tactless and vulgar

please just accept that there are subjects where you will never see the issue, no matter how long people spend explaining it to you

and try to recognize that others don’t see the world thru your limited mindset

I should add that whilst I may disagree with you on many issues, you do at least simulate discussion which is far preferable to the idiocy embodied in Maven and his mates.

Wasting my time with TheIrie’s faux puzzlement: Since I know you won’t take the trouble to work through the links at 12.04a.m 4th Dec: Fink and co have taken some of their lyrics from the Honorary Canon of the Cathedral Church of St. George the Martyr in Jerusalem, who is a member of the Amos trust, which encourages the use of these carols, and whose codirectorthe Rev Stephen Sizer is an avowed apostle of the most vicious brand of Replacement theology- the kind you acknowledge is historically, and in some places still today, very serious.

“At his website Sizer openly and unapologetically exhorts Christians to accept replacement theology and, on its basis, to repudiate Israel. He advocates:

1) a Marcionite separation of the Gospel from the Old Testament;

2) a reading of the Old Testament from a perspective that denies that modern Jews have any legitimate Jewish identity or continuing standing as the People of God (in opposition to Romans 11:1 and 29);

3) an affirmation that the present state of Israel and its citizens are not heirs to the Biblical Israel, and that because of the sins of the Jews, Israel has lost its covenant with God. That covenant has been transferred to the Palestinians, innocent victims of a demonized Israel;

4) a demonization of the state of Israel to prove the cancellation of the covenant;

5) an aiming of this campaign at evangelical Americans in order to suppress their support for Israel.

Sizer’s inflammatory writings meld warped, ahistorical sociopolitical “narrative” to heretical theology and blatant hatred of Jews — Judenhass. For example, he states that “a return to Jewish nationalism would seem incompatible with this New Testament perspective of the international community of Jesus.”
He claims: “The covenant between Jews and God was conditional on their respect for human rights. The reason they were expelled from the land was that they were more interested in money and power and treated the poor and aliens with contempt. In the United States, politicians dare not criticize Israel because half the funding for both the Democrats and the Republicans comes from Jewish sources.”
http://www.afsi.org/OUTPOST/2003SEP/sep8.htm

ami, thank you for drawing our attention to this scary dude and his sinister operation. As a matter of interest do you happen to know if Sizer has Jewish antecedents? Like Fink and Atzmon he has a particularly unashamed Judenhass which is often a mark of the self-hater community.

On Saturday at 2.30 Premier Radio wil broadcast a recorded debate on Christian Zionism. Stephen Sizer is one of the speakers. Geoffrey Smith (who appears on the CNN clip above, speaking out against the sham carols) is another.

Great work Ami!

Look what’s in the emails Sizer sends:

http://seismicshock.blogspot.com/2008/09/stephen-sizer-unintentional-anti-semite.html

Just one example:

#8228 US Government Condemns Unintentional Antisemitism

Here Sizer forwards material from http://www.rense.com, run by Jeff Rense. The article contains this gem:

“Today, evangelicals reflexively honor the code that, no matter how true an unflattering fact or opinion about Jews may be, it will not be repeated. As a result of a century of self-censorship, tens of millions of evangelicals live in a virtual iron curtain of exclusion of truth about Jews, Judaism and Israel. Taught to see, hear, and speak no evil of Israel, they subsist on a religious and political diet of Zionist-approved pablum.”

Stephen Sizer: “What I learned was that Palestine needed to be liberated from the Jews!”

http://seismicshock.blogspot.com/2008/09/stephen-sizer-what-i-learned-was-that.html

@Maven, yes you must be spectacularly stupid & ignorant;, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to educate those too far disconnected with reality to be reasoned with, but if you want to try to “thoroughly blow” & make “cry” the authors of these pieces, then who am I to stop you;
http://mondediplo.com/2003/11/04apartheid
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jan/14/comment
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0831/p11s1-coop.html

@Alec Macpherson, I thought it apt to adopt a moniker that really reflects what this blog is all about, lies & half-truths;

@John P, I sincerely hope that you’re a Yank, as I hate to think that you have gone through the British education system, and still have ended up as ignorant as you appear. Yes we all know how the Christian subject people suffered under the Ottoman Empire, we know about the Armenian Genocide, the mass murders of hundreds of thousands of Greeks & Assyrians, etc; but it seems that you know very little about the massacres & pogroms against Jews in Christian countries, staring from the time of Caligula & continuing even after Hitler committed the largest massacre in history, in Poland in the early years after WW2. So you may claim that more Christians died during the period of the Ottoman Empire, then during a two thousand year long track record of massacres, which included the biggest single crime in history, but nobody with any sense of history will take you seriously.

And careful, your obvious rabid Islamophobia has you actually even playing down Hitler’s Holocaust, adding the charge of anti-Semitism to your portfolio of bigotry. Do you know where the Jews found refuge after being persecuted & expelled from Europe, where they settled, co-existed peacefully & prospered for centuries, until that is, the rise of Zionism & the subsequent creation of the Settler State of Israel, yes, the Muslim Arab countries.

Your non-point about Jewish leaders in the Muslim World has already by answered by another Poster.

The CNN clip does not give the full version of the new words but let’s face it none of what it does show is factually inaccurate on the Israel/Palestine situation.

I had never heard of Deborah Fink or her initiative on the carols but thank you for bringing it to my attention

That’s ok, John.

It is quite clear that, ‘as a Jew’, Deborah is more interested in appealing to non-Jewish cultural Christians than to other Jews on this matter.

Which makes her a quasi-Christian preacher or, indeed, evangelist.

Which is fine, if that is what she wants to do, I guess. But when Deborah says it is a Jewish thing to do, but not a Christian, that suggests she is a little confused.

A half truth is worse than a lie,

“Do you know where the Jews found refuge after being persecuted & expelled from Europe, where they settled, co-existed peacefully & prospered for centuries, until that is, the rise of Zionism & the subsequent creation of the Settler State of Israel, yes, the Muslim Arab countries.”

And the other half of your truth (at least), is that Arab Muslims effectively ethnically cleansed almost all of ‘their’ fellow non- or anti-Zionist Arab Jews, mostly to Israel, because, when the chips were down, they regarded those same non- or anti-Zionist Arab Jews as de facto Zionist, because, after all, for most of Islamic history, Jews have been regarded as a people dispossessed of the land as a punishment for their rejection of Jesus and the prophets.

No, Half Truth, you’re a cheat who’s too shifty to use his regular posting name. It suggests you don’t enter discussion with full honesty.

@Zkharya, I refer you to my line “until that is, the rise of Zionism & the subsequent creation of the Settler State of Israel”. When you can comprehend what others write, and write what others don’t already know, feel free to enlighten me with your wisdom.

@Alec Macpherson, your strange obsession with my identity is truly suspect; even causing you to smear me as a “dishonest shiffy cheat” !! Goodness how desperately concerned you must be by little old me ! It’s almost flattering !

That the majority of other people who post here, are not using anything like real names, doesn’t concern you !?

The fact that David Toube, the low life that runs this Site, tried desperately to keep hidden his ID, despite doing exactly what you are trying to do now, in finding out people real names so to cause real trouble for them, makes me extremely suspicious that perhaps you are not who you claim to be.

A half truth is worse than a lie

“@Zkharya, I refer you to my line “until that is, the rise of Zionism & the subsequent creation of the Settler State of Israel”. When you can comprehend what others write, and write what others don’t already know, feel free to enlighten me with your wisdom.”

It’s still only half the truth, half the truth: the reason why Arab Muslims identified non- or anti-Zionist Arab Jews with Palestinian, Israeli or Zionist Jews, is because they regarded Arab Jews as more nationally Jewish than nationally Arab. And that view pre-dated the birth of the state of Israel, because such a view is rooted in the pre-existing Islamic tradition that Jews are a people historically dispossessed as a punishment for their rejection of Jesus and prophets.

It is only half the truth to stress Islamic tolerance of Jews without mentioning historical prejudice, discrimination or occasional persecution, especially when critiquing the notion of Jewish national identity or aspirations given that they are based on notions not entirely dissimilar to those held by most Muslims for most of Islamic history.

Still lying, I see, Half Truth. You can be Krusty the Klown for all I care. All that matters is that you find one posting name (i.e. not necessarily your real name) and stick to it.

How do you know Alec Macpherson is my real name?

Still lying, I see, Half Truth. You can be Krusty the Klown for all I care. All that matters is that you find one posting name (i.e. not necessarily your real name) and stick to it.

How do you know Alec Macpherson is my real name?

The fact that David Toube, the low life that runs this Site, tried desperately to keep hidden his ID,

Haha, hilarious. Right from chastising me for a non-point you advertize the article author’s full name and deliver a personally abusive comment. You’re nothing but a hypocrite.

@Zkharya, Forgive me for being hostile to hair-splitting, straw clutching non arguments, but you are really are talking crap. Strangely enough it was not only Arabs, but also Arab Jews that regarded themselves as more Jewish than Arab (!); strangely enough it is not only in the Islamic tradition that Jews were sent into Exile by God, but also in the Jewish tradition (!), which is why many religious Jews are anti-Zionist & opposed to the existence of the State of Israel.

I never claim that there was absolutely no prejudice, discrimination or even occasional persecutions against Arab Jews before the creation of the State of Israel, but these are exceptions to the undeniable historical fact that the Jews communities that fund refuge in Arab countries after being expelled from Europe, prospered, lived in comparative safety, & therefore indeed thrived.

@Alec Macpherson,, Yet another one of Harry’s Horrids with a few planks missing; Hello ! It was me that stated that you calling yourself Alec Macpherson doesn’t necessarily mean it’s your real name. As to your assertion that I have posted under another name, well that is 100% totally wrong.

Your hypocrite smear again stems from you missing few planks; David Toube’s name is widely well known & freely available in Cyberspace, (credits to Richard Seymour for outing him long ago), and my description of him as a low-life was if anything a gross understatement, as he has a mountain of bad karma waiting to fall on him.

Half Truth,

“Strangely enough it was not only Arabs, but also Arab Jews that regarded themselves as more Jewish than Arab (!);”

Well, if that is what you think, I would have thought you would then grant Jewish nationalism an equivalence to Arab, including Palestinian Arab, nationalism. Do you?

“strangely enough it is not only in the Islamic tradition that Jews were sent into Exile by God, but also in the Jewish tradition (!), which is why many religious Jews are anti-Zionist & opposed to the existence of the State of Israel.”

It is also the reason why Jews have prayed and hoped daily for a restoration for nigh on 2000 years.

Well, I did say:

“It is only half the truth to stress Islamic tolerance of Jews without mentioning historical prejudice, discrimination or occasional persecution, especially when critiquing the notion of Jewish national identity or aspirations +given that they are based on notions not entirely dissimilar to those held by most Muslims for most of Islamic history+.”

And while the fact of Islamic comparative tolerance is true, it is still only half the truth.

@Zkharya,

“Well, if that is what you think, I would have thought you would then grant Jewish nationalism an equivalence to Arab, including Palestinian Arab, nationalism. Do you?”

Who is denying nationalism to anybody ? If you are referring to the opposition to an imposed Settler State on stolen land, than that’s a totally different matter altogether.

“It is also the reason why Jews have prayed and hoped daily for a restoration for nigh on 2000 years.”

Funny how you seem unaware that also according to Judaism, the Jews are actually prohibited by God to seek to end their exile and establish a state and army until the Messiah redeems them.

“And while the fact of Islamic comparative tolerance is true, it is still only half the truth.”

Goodness me ! Pedantic to the point of pointlessness; how do you want to verify the percentage of a general truth ? ! I assure you that any academic study into the Jewish experience of living in Arab countries pre modern Zionism, want quantify the tolerance factor as more than a “half truth”.

@Halftruth
“Well, if that is what you think, I would have thought you would then grant Jewish nationalism an equivalence to Arab, including Palestinian Arab, nationalism. Do you?”

“Who is denying nationalism to anybody ?”

So you do acknowledge Jewish nationalism is as legitimate as Palestinian Christian and Islamic? Good.

“If you are referring to the opposition to an imposed Settler State on stolen land, than that’s a totally different matter altogether.”

But Palestinian Christians and Muslims wanted to establish a state with most Palestinian Jews ejected and entry denied to the rest.

“It is also the reason why Jews have prayed and hoped daily for a restoration for nigh on 2000 years.”

“Funny how you seem unaware that also according to Judaism, the Jews are actually prohibited by God to seek to end their exile and establish a state and army until the Messiah redeems them.”

It is not forbidden for Jews to return to the land, nor is it forbidden for them to protect themselves against those who would drive them out, or prevent them entering if fleeing persecution, discrimination or worse.

“And while the fact of Islamic comparative tolerance is true, it is still only half the truth.”

”Goodness me ! Pedantic to the point of pointlessness; how do you want to verify the percentage of a general truth ? !

You’re the one who came up with “50%” of the truth being “more than 100% of a lie”.

“I assure you that any academic study into the Jewish experience of living in Arab countries pre modern Zionism, want quantify the tolerance factor as more than a “half truth”.

Not if you ask the majority of non- or anti-Zionist Arab Jews who were subsequently effectively driven out.
And, unhappy with just 50%, now who’s being a pedant?

“I assure you that any academic study into the Jewish experience of living in Arab countries pre modern Zionism, want quantify the tolerance factor as more than a “half truth”.”

I didn’t say ‘comparative tolerance’ was ‘A half truth’. I said it was ‘half THE truth’. Something can in and of itself be true, but in the context of something else, only half the truth contextually.

And I’ve read plenty of academic histories of the Jews of the Arab and Islamic world.