Harry's Place

Otto Jespersen is trying to make a point in these monologues, and the text should be judged in context. It shouldn’t be taken in isolation.

Spoilsport.

Does Juan Cole speak Norwegian? I think we need some clarification.

More traditional deflection tactics on display at MPAC UK where a post on the site discusses the film ‘The Boy in Striped Pajamas.’

According to this MPAC UK post perhaps the only Holocaust deniers are the Zionist State.

“That’s about as sophisticated”

No, it is even less. It is seriously fucked up.

Yes, it’s in bad taste. Yes, it’s a joke. You know what — humour is very often in bad taste, for examples have a look at Sickipedia.

If you think people shouldn’t have a right to say sick jokes, you’re evil and comtemptible. If you think people should have that right, what’re you complaining about?

“One cartoon showed an ultra-Orthodox Jew engraving “thou shall murder” into an alternative Decalogue”

I think that the subtext is that some Christians resent the Jews for inventing the morality that now they have borrowed. It is like envy of the father. Resentment and fear of the Jews is, as someone once said, hardwired in Christian theology.

“If you think people shouldn’t have a right to say sick jokes, you’re evil and comtemptible”

If you think anybody will fall for your trolling attempt, you are sadly mistaken.

The correct response to an offensive joke is silence, an embarrassed cough and a changing of the subject. Judging from his Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Jespersen_(comedian)), he’s a serial controversialist and also, not very funny (thought perhaps Norwegian humour does not translate well), so I’m loath to give him the oxygen of publicity.

P.

Further to Paul’s comment, at least Jostein Gaarder can write.

Among Jespersen’s other stunts, he has a) burned the American flag, b) burned the Old Testament, and c) after expressing his distaste for the Prime Minister, invited Olaf Palme’s murderer to Oslo.

In other words, he’s probably blogs for Norges Huffingtonposten.

Well it’s obvious to me that antisemitism in Europe, Norway in this case, uses the Arab Israeli confict in order to mitigate its own guuilt about the Holocaust.

By blaming Jews (Zionists) of atrocities they can then say that they too are as bad and that therefore they had in coming.

If you think anybody will fall for your trolling attempt, you are sadly mistaken.

“Shut up in the name of freedom of speech” isn’t the bestest troll evar, no.

Here is an article in Haaretz which addresses the same issues:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1042960.html

“The Jihadi as Nazi, from 9/11 to Mumbai” By Bradley Burston

“Asked what was different about the victims of the incident, another doctor said: “It was very strange. I have seen so many dead bodies in my life, and was yet traumatised. A bomb blast victim’s body might have been torn apart and could be a very disturbing sight. But the bodies of the victims in this attack bore such signs about the kind of violence of urban warfare that I am still unable to put my thoughts to words,” he said.

Asked specifically if he was talking of torture marks, he said: “It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood,” one doctor said.

The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: “Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again,” he said.

For the whole of my adult life, it irked me when my fellow Jews would routinely and without compunction, accuse anti-Zionists of being anti-Semitic, and conflate anti-Israeli sentiment with the Nazis.

I felt that the latter eroded the memory and the magnitude of the Holocaust, and that the former was a slightly more elegant way of telling people with whom one took issue, to shut the hell up.

Only this week did I realize my error.”

Otto Jespersen’s humor is the humor of the Cossack. Meant to further dehumanize him by degrading his memory.

“diverting attention from the real problem, which is Israel’s well-documented and incontestable abuse of Palestinians”

: There was a pseud avant gard composer given reverent space on the Today programme this morning where we heard the results of ” a sound that reflects the use and abuse of power” He declared that Palestine was the defining issue of our time.
ONe of his previous works derives much of its musical content from human skin, hair, bones; another used witty culinary metaphors to attack not just giant food companies but also the death penalty, body fascism and war in Iraq.

I think I almost prefer the jokes.

On a tangent: Sophie’s World A brilliant book, or a load of bollocks? I’ve never read it; should I?

(I really am getting very little reading done these days; I have Homicide: Life on the Streets on my bedside cabinet, a book almost as big as said cabinet.)

P.

If Kåre Willoch thinks claims that antisemitism is alarmingly prominent in Norway are a deflection tactic aimed at diverting attention from Israel’s abuse of Palestinians, wouldn’t it make sense for him to try to minimise antisemitism so that people wouldn’t be able to use it to divert attention from Israel’s abuse of Palestinians?

But you frequently find with people who want to highlight Israel’s abuse of Palestinians that although they’re aware of the “traditional deflection tactic” of highlighting antisemitism, they don’t seem that bothered about trying to make sure there’s as little as possible of it to highlight. Sometimes they even hang around with antisemites, which strikes me as really silly, given that they know that people are going to use that fact to divert attention from Israel’s abuse of Palestinians.

As a gentile, I note with alarm and a considerable degree of shame, the manner in which anti-semitism has returned to European societies.

My own grandfather witnessed survivors of Bergen-Belsen at the end of WW2, and in any rational society we could hope that the horrors of the Holocaust would have made open anti-semitism unacceptable in public fora.

What distresses me most is the manner in which people from the political left, who historically struggled against racism, now are the most likely culprits of either Holocaust down-playing or promulgating Protocols of Elders Lite, where all you need to do is substitute the word Jew for Zionist, and it is acceptable to promote ideas that spawned a genocide.

Sophie’s World A brilliant book, or a load of bollocks?

A load of bollocks, but most revealing of the mentality of Norwegian progressives, who like to think of themselves as the most enlightened people in the world. Of course, given the regular arse-licking that progressives in other countries give them viz a viz their supposedly wonderful social system, their conceits are understandable.

Fabian from Israel: “If you think people shouldn’t have a right to say sick jokes, you’re evil and comtemptible”; If you think anybody will fall for your trolling attempt, you are sadly mistaken.

Either you’re in favour of free speech, or you’re not. Which is it?

Suffolk Booy: As a gentile, I note with alarm and a considerable degree of shame, the manner in which anti-semitism has returned to European societies.

Europeans are people, and people are (by and large) bigots. Therefore you’d expect plenty of Europeans to be bigots.

I very much doubt if “anti-semitism” (a stupid expression, “hatred of Jews” owuld be better) ever went away. It’s wrong, but no more wrong than hatred of any other ethnic group.

shriber: Well it’s obvious to me that antisemitism in Europe, Norway in this case, uses the Arab Israeli confict in order to mitigate its own guuilt about the Holocaust.

Oh for fucks sake, don’t be rediculous. Norway isn’t responsible for the holocaust, that was Germany.

But then again, you seem to want to lump all Europeans together as the same. Isn’t that racist of you?

“On a tangent: Sophie’s World A brilliant book, or a load of bollocks? I’ve never read it; should I?”

Read whatever you want.

Sophie’s World however postulated the 19C antisemitic thesis that the Greek world was the complete opposite of the “Semitic” oriental world.

The book in this sense gives credibility to traditional antisemitism.

I read the book when it first translated into English and found it nauseatingly simplistic.

I wasn’t surprised then by the subsequent Jostein Gaarder’s attack not just on Israel but on Judaism.

Either you’re in favour of free speech, or you’re not. Which is it?

This is hopelessly simplistic bollocks though, isn’t it. You can oppose people being arrested for Holocaust denial, but still oppose their being given time on national TV. You can support the right to make, sell and buy pornography but still oppose it being broadcast on BBC1 at 7pm (although I admit it would be preferable to the One Show). You can support someone’s right to make tossy comments on the internet without it obliging you to host them yourself. Nobody’s an absolutist about free speech, because it’s a silly and ill thought out position to hold.

Read whatever you want.

I was seeking opinions, not approval. I’m wary of mass adulation of literary-lite books; for instance, I thought “The Lovely Bones” was tosh, utter tosh, and can’t believe Peter Jackson is wasting his time on it when he could me making a “Halo” movie with the South African chap who did the short Alive in Jo’burg.

P.

Cabalamat “Oh for fucks sake, don’t be rediculous. Norway isn’t responsible for the holocaust, that was Germany.”

For fucks, sake Norway collaborated with Germany. Where do you think the expression “Quisling” comes from?

And Cabalamat trying to limit the Holocaust to Nazi Germany is like trying to limit Communism to Russia. A lot of people in Europe and around the world supported and support its ideology.

Your view is one way of diminishing the importance and meaning of the Holocaust. Antisemitism was an is a universal ideology which has even, because of European antisemitic propaganda, penetrated into Japan a country which had very little experience with Jews:

“Antisemitism in Japan”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Japan

This article relies heavily on the book

“Jews in the Japanese Mind: The History and Uses of a Cultural Stereotype.”
By David G. Goodman and Masanori Miyazawa
Free Press.

http://www.amazon.com/Jews-Japanese-Mind-Cultural-Stereotype/dp/0739101676

Which is reviewed here:

“The Japanese and the Jews”

http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=4114

What do you think a book titled “Jews in the Norwegian mind” would look like?

“I was seeking opinions, not approval.”

Right.

Sorry Paul Moloney, didn’t mean to condescend.

[Quote] I’ve never read it; should I?
Don’t bother. If you really want to read something about the subject, Bertrand Russell is still your best bet.

Racist bigoted humor should be allowed. So should fiery arson driven Islam inspired protests of it.

For fucks, sake Norway collaborated with Germany. Where do you think the expression “Quisling” comes from?

Oh for fuck’s sake. The Quislings were a tiny group propped up by 500,000 German troups. When a damaged Brit bomber, thinking it was over the sea, dopped it’s load on downtown Bergen killing scores of children, Norwegians didn’t blink. They knew what they were all about. I’ll take the late King Haakon over the late Duke and Duchess of Windsor any damn day.

Either you’re in favour of free speech, or you’re not. Which is it?

Why have you only popped up to support free speech when it is achingly unfunny anti-semitism? And why are your efforts at supporting free speech dedicated to silencing Jespersen’s critics?

I can’t say I have any time for Nordic (or any other type) “progressivism”: although I have long had the impression that Norway is a lot more conservative, Christian, and moral and generally decent and admirable (even in terms of fiscal rectitude) than the other more debauched and hedonistic and morally relativistic states of the region. (Strangely was just discussing this the other day)

And it’s record in international relations in recent decades, attempting not always entirely successfully to bring together and force often wholly unreasonable parties (whether in the middle east or Sri Lanka, particularly) into some kind of compromise or at any rate negotiations – - frankly is second to none, and, well, to say wholly admirable maybe appears to imply the perfectability of human nature, but as damn near to that as possible. More so than any other European country that I can think of anyway.

(Still, one can look at the degree of support that a rather nationalistic party sometimes described as being of the “far right” has there, and has had for some time: and wonder if it is success is due to its sensible anti-EU stance, or if there more malign aspects to its appeal)

And, oh, as for cultural matters, “Kristin Lavransdatter” – my god, that’s what I call a novel. The country also has the funkiest road signs in the world – a schoolgirl with a ponytail, a man crossing the road wearing a hat looking as though he is dancing.

So, drawing conclusions about a nation on the basis of one wilfully provocative and offensive “comedian” or a number of political cartoons that may or may not have questionable elements – please, leave that to the Daily Mail. And, frankly, anyone who uses the offensive and moronic expression “Livingstone Formulation” is quite clearly trying to close down debate and really reveals themself as not worthy of being taken seriously.

If you think people shouldn’t have a right to say sick jokes, you’re evil and comtemptible. If you think people should have that right, what’re you complaining about?

Cabalamat Sometime earlier

Listen mate, I think you miss the point that was subtly being made by Ben Cohen. So I will highlight it for you:

All of this is illustrative of a wider point. These days, racist jokes about blacks and other minorities are largely – and correctly – regarded as an embarrassment, the preserve of failed comedians performing to inebriated audiences in seedy clubs. But transfer these same themes to Jews and all of a sudden, they acquire a delicious sense of toying with the forbidden. What is reactionary becomes radical, what is stupid and insulting becomes pathbreaking. Thus does the gutter enter the lofty heights of the salon.

If someone could tell me how to “quote” with indent etc, that would be nice.

“If you think people shouldn’t have a right to say sick jokes, you’re evil and comtemptible”

If you think anybody will fall for your trolling attempt, you are sadly mistaken.
Fabian from Israel 3 December 2008, 3:34 pm

Seems to me that you just did :)
Fabian from Israel: “If you think people shouldn’t have a right to say sick jokes, you’re evil and comtemptible”; If you think anybody will fall for your trolling attempt, you are sadly mistaken.

Either you’re in favour of free speech, or you’re not. Which is it?
Cabalamat 3 December 2008, 4:18 pm

Ok, Cabalmat, but I am unsure how Fabian’s comment attempts to limit anyones free speech, other than to suggest that other commentators should not respond to your loaded and ill-informed question

If someone could tell me how to “quote” with indent etc, that would be nice

Joe – use blockquote tags

Cabalamat, stop showing your ignorance; Norway was indeed complicit in the Holocaust, as was every European country except Denmark.

Every, you ask? The UK, you ask? Well, see Sir Martin Gilbert’s work, about Auscwitz and the Allies.

I can’t say I have any time for Nordic (or any other type) “progressivism”: although I have long had the impression that Norway is a lot more conservative, Christian, and moral and generally decent and admirable (even in terms of fiscal rectitude) than the other more debauched and hedonistic and morally relativistic states of the region. (Strangely was just discussing this the other day)

My ties to that country are deep, my mum being an immigrant from there. It’s hardly a Christian country any longer. It is not so much moral as moralistic. I remember watching in amazement a CNN report years ago about a Norwegian environmentalist and the lengths he went through to save fresh water. He actually lived on a Vestland fjord, surounded by glaciers and streams. The rainiest place in Europe, in fact. A perfect example of Scandinavian piety and obliviousness to humor.

Sorry Venichka, what are “blockquote tags”

Norway is also the Wet Wet Wet of the UN Human Development Index, having finished top for six consecutive years from 2001 to 2006 (Iceland knocking it off the top spot in 2007, à la Whigfield in September 1994).

Philo-Semitic,

By that logic, so was the US.

Where did Raul Wallenberg come from?

mesquito “Oh for fuck’s sake. The Quislings were a tiny group propped up by 500,000 German troups”

This is simplistic.

Norwegian antisemitism antedated the occupation. After WW1 Jews were subject to government restrictions.

“Though the Jewish minority was small and widely dispersed, several anti-Semitic stereotypes took hold in popular literature in the early 20th century. In such books by the widely read authors Rudolf Muus and Øvre Richter Frich, Jews are described as obsessed with money and sadistic. In 1920, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was published in Norway under the title “The New World Emperor”.

Norwegian attorney Eivind Saxlund published a pamphlet “Jøder og Gojim” (“Jews and Goyim”) in 1910, which was characterized as “anti-Semitic slander” by many in the media. This characterization led Saxlund to sue for libel in 1922, (he lost the case), but earned him the admiration of the newspaper The Nationen, which praised Saxlund for fighting “our race war.” “

http://blog.holocaustresearchproject.org/2008/11/19/norways-jews.aspx?ref=rss

Now, most Norwegians weren’t active supporters neither were they active resisters. And the majority of the relatively small number of Norwegian Jews didn’t survive the occupation.

As in France the Norwegian police assisted the Germans in arresting Jews.

Norway wasn’t Denmark. Moreover the continued presence of antisemitism in Norway didn’t come out of nowhere.

Where did Raul Wallenberg come from?

From Sweden and his family was heavily involved in trade with Nazi Germany. Raul himself had lived in Mandate Palestine in the mid 30’s and came to know many Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany.

I haven’t heard it but as I get it the context was supposed to be about how media super wash us with unimportant nonsense in war like headlines while war in e.g. Congo get a couple of short paragraphs on page 15. May it was about the giraffe baby in trouble in a Norwegian zoo that media whipped up a frenzy about this autumn and dwarfed any other news.

These days, racist jokes about blacks and other minorities are largely – and correctly – regarded as an embarrassment, the preserve of failed comedians performing to inebriated audiences in seedy clubs. But transfer these same themes to Jews and all of a sudden, they acquire a delicious sense of toying with the forbidden.

To me this is the key. Ever so gradually it becomes OK to be antisemitic. It starts with the flag of the USA having Star of David instead of stars and the permissible boundaries of attacking Jews because people have discovered that you can use a synonym “Zionist” and its supposed to be neutral. Although “Zionist” can mean “Tony Blair” it also means “Jew” when you examine contexts.

Well, I suppose if they mean Jew then why not say Jew. Why not be explicit about Jew. Arab tv gets away with it – why not me?

The not so subtle “Jew York” and the outing of Jews whenever an Islamist is somehow affected by an external action “There must be a Jew somewhere”.

Its sickening and I don’t know what the Parliamentary Commission on Antisemitism is doing about it.

As I pointed-out elsewhere. even the BBC will use “Jewish Settler” where they won’t use “Islamic terrorist” or associate a Muslim with any acts of violence.

Venichka:

“And, frankly, anyone who uses the offensive and moronic expression “Livingstone Formulation” is quite clearly trying to close down debate and really reveals themself as not worthy of being taken seriously.”

No close downs debate, but raise the standard of debate.

It’s those people who accuse anyone who criticizes their bigotry of trying to close down debate that closing down debate.

Shriber, I have no doubt that Norway, like the rest of Europe, was shockingly bigoted in the early 1900s. But to call the whole nation a bunch of collaborators is gross slander. They made the same compromises with occupation as the Danes and the French.

I make no apologies for Noreweigian racism. (My grandmother thought a 1949 visit by Louis Armstrong was Apocolyptic.) But the quislings were a discrete group which was rounded up and punished after the war.

Now it could be argued that the masses of Norwegians resisted Nazi calls for racial solidaity because of their loathing for the German Race, but that’s another matter.

“As I pointed-out elsewhere. even the BBC will use “Jewish Settler” where they won’t use “Islamic terrorist” or associate a Muslim with any acts of violence.”

Indeed but they do use “Jewish terrorist” when talking about right wing Jews who actively fought the British occupation of Palestine in the 40’s.

Some of them of course were terrorists and so are the Muslims and Arabs who kill civilians terrorists.

mesquito. this isn’t about you. And no one called all Norwegians collaborators. We are talking about official policy and official condoning of antisemitism.

no, shriber. You said:

For fucks, sake Norway collaborated with Germany. Where do you think the expression “Quisling” comes from?

Norway was in roughly the same position as my Grandfather. He was reponsible for a wife and three small children, and had German soldiers quartered in his house for five years.

Venichka and others: as an American I believe in free speech

Let’s make a deal, then.

You can have the right to make dumb unfunny antisemitic jokes and I have the right to call you a scumbag and moronic antisemitic douchebag . How is hat?

mesquito “no, shriber. You said:

For fucks, sake Norway collaborated with Germany. Where do you think the expression “Quisling” comes from?”

Please Mesquito, Norway is a metonym. It’s like saying the White House to mean the current administration.

Again this isn’t about you.

There are 1200 Jews in Norway. 1200! The 0.3% of the population. Almost nothing.
Nevertheless, in national TV a lousy “comediant” thinks it is funny to imply that fleas and lice are worth more than Jews. And this as the “clincher” joke.
This guy would shit himself before making a similar joke about Muslims.
I really wish him the worst.

Norway was in roughly the same position as my Grandfather. He was reponsible for a wife and three small children, and had German soldiers quartered in his house for five years.

Really?

shriber: For fucks, sake Norway collaborated with Germany. Where do you think the expression “Quisling” comes from?

As others have pointed out, the vat majority of Norwegians didn’t collaborate with the Germans.

And Cabalamat trying to limit the Holocaust to Nazi Germany is like trying to limit Communism to Russia. A lot of people in Europe and around the world supported and support its ideology.

Don’t be silly; the number of present-day Europeans who want to gas all the Jews is insignificant and they have no realistic chance of getting power in the forseeable future.

In the 1990s the Israeli government asked the German government not to let Russian jews to emigrate to Germany. They did this because many Russian jews were migrating to germany instead of Israel; do you really think this would have been the case if Europeans on the whole hated Jews? Of course it bloody wouldn’t.

Joe: If someone could tell me how to “quote” with indent etc, that would be nice.

Try using the blockquote tag…

like this

Lit Crit:

Really?

What the hell is yout point?

“If someone could tell me how to “quote” with indent etc, that would be nice.”

I do it like this: (blockquote)…..(/blockquote)

But instead of parentheses I use ’s

greater than/less than signs, I mean.

Maven,

“Well, I suppose if they mean Jew then why not say Jew. Why not be explicit about Jew. Arab tv gets away with it – why not me?”

I doubt Arab tv plays a part in their rationalisation. Maybe they know that they would meet disapproval if they said Jew.

“The not so subtle “Jew York”

Ditto al-BBC.

These kinds of jokes is why I no longer watch South Park. Maybe I am not a complete free speech proponent but some things just shouldnt be in the public realm. I actually think pornography should be illegal.

Indeed but they do use “Jewish terrorist” when talking about right wing Jews who actively fought the British occupation of Palestine in the 40’s.

Fuckwit!!!

They use “Jewish Settler” TODAY – but as Antisemitic scum I doubt you care. The deliberate bait switch to something completely different is a common messageboard tactic.

This attempt at a joke is not even remotely funny.

Irrelevant analogy alert:

Cabalamat: “Don’t be silly; the number of present-day Europeans who want to gas all the Jews is insignificant and they have no realistic chance of getting power in the forseeable future.”

You willfully misread my comment and then drew a self serving conclusion.

“In the 1990s the Israeli government asked the German government not to let Russian jews to emigrate to Germany. They did this because many Russian jews were migrating to germany instead of Israel; do you really think this would have been the case if Europeans on the whole hated Jews? Of course it bloody wouldn’t.”

The reasons for this are complex. The majority of Soviet Jews emigrated to Israel.

You conclusion that this means that “Europeans” don’t hate Jews is nonsense.

Since the emigration of the Jews to Germany antisemitism has been on the rise, especially violent antisemitism.

Try reading this:

“Anti-Semitism and Ethnicity in Europe”

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3446931.html

Maven, what the fuck are you talking about?
Have you been reading my posts?

Let me repeat what I said so that even Maven will understand:

She said above:

““As I pointed-out elsewhere. even the BBC will use “Jewish Settler” where they won’t use “Islamic terrorist” or associate a Muslim with any acts of violence.”

I agreed and I pointed out that TODAY the BBC when talking about the pre 1948 Jewish revolt against the British occupation does use the word “terrorist” when talking about Jews who fought the British.

This is another sign of BBC antisemitism.

What the hell is yout point?

The point being that all the Scandinavian countries were enthusiastic followers of eugenics long before the Nazis arrived, and long afterwards, as my link to a scholarly work explains. To get into some idiotic argument over whether Norwegians are goodies or baddies because some may or may not have collaborated during the occupation kind of misses the bigger picture, what what?

The point being that all the Scandinavian countries were enthusiastic followers of eugenics long before the Nazis arrived, and long afterwards

Yeah, but Abba!

“The point being that all the Scandinavian countries were enthusiastic followers of eugenics long before the Nazis arrived, and long afterwards, as my link to a scholarly work explains. ”

Leftism and eugenics are literally joined at the hip, whether it’s in Scandinavia or the United States. I’m no big fan of Norway and Norwegians– God knows mum is glad to be out –and consider them neither goodies nor baddies. And they may be racists to the core, for all I know. But their contempt for things that aren’t Norwegian certainly includes Germans, and they were less collaborationist than many, if not most.

Following discussions such as this really does make me wonder which countries, if any, the protagonists would consider to have a blemish-free history with no hints of the biological racism and social Darwinism of the 19th and 20th Centuries.

There is such a thing as incremental scale. I am fairly sure Norway didn’t implement her version of Plan T4, which is what is being implied here. Sterilizing designated ‘undesirables’ is not a policy to be repeated or looked at through misty-eyes, but nor is it comparable to official policies of exterminating them. At around the same time, the U.K. was removing tens of thousands of foundlings to populate the hinterlands of Australia and so on, and Ireland was consigning sexually active girls to god-awful boarding homes.

To start prattling on about one country which, amongst others, sterilized individuals or didn’t treat all inhabitants with the same enlightened attitude we do now kind of misses the bigger picture, what what?

At around the same time, the U.K. was removing tens of thousands of foundlings to populate the hinterlands of Australia

The UK was doing that in the 1970s?

Because it wasn’t until then that Scandinavian eugenic policies were finally stopped.

“The point being that all the Scandinavian countries were enthusiastic followers of eugenics long before the Nazis arrived, and long afterwards”

I seriously don’t blame them.
http://mickhartley.typepad.com/blog/2008/11/swedish-dance-bands-of-the-seventies.html

The UK was doing that in the 1970s?

Just about.

well, here’s a problem for those who would attack nearly all Scandinavian countries, simply on the basis of the views of a few individuals, it does not tally

one example, the inspiration for eugenics was NOT from a Scandinavian country, rather it was a Brit: Francis Galton.

in fact, many Brits and Americans were keen on eugenics, including but not limited to: HG Wells, Teddy Roosevelt, Alexander Graham Bell, etc

that’s leaving aside the mass sterilizations that apparently went on in America and other countries, before the 1960s

so it is far better that you deal with the individual’s arguments rather than try to indict whole nations on some spurious grounds

I should have added this link:

http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/

Modernity, you forgot Marie Stopes.

To start prattling on about one country which, amongst others, sterilized individuals or didn’t treat all inhabitants with the same enlightened attitude we do now kind of misses the bigger picture, what what?

Sorry, was Britain in the 1960s, or priest-befuddled Ireland, being held up as enlightened countries with social models to emulate? Because the purpose of pointing out the political shortcomings of Scandinavia was to riducule those socialists who like to puff up all things Nordic, not engage with your legion of strawmen, Alec and Modders.

Sorry, LitCrit, who here was holding Norway as a model par excellence to emulate? That’s right, no-one! In fact, the whole pissing competition started with you scoffing at Mesquito whose mother, as I recall, was actually in (?) Bergen when the school was obliterated.

What were you saying about straw-men?

Mesquito is spot on and Shriber displays at worst ignorance, at worst simplistic reading of history.

There was after WW1 a significant extreme right-wing movement in Norway (and in Denmark, BTW), with unbridled anti-Semitic views: not just Quisling but also Knut Hamsun (a better author than Jostein Gaarder, but with even more despicable views). But it was always confined to the fringes, away from the polite society (which, in Scandinavia, is oh so very polite and proper). Norwegians, overwhelmingly, proved their mettle under the occupation, in one of the most heroic resistance movements in Europe.

At the centre of Trondheim stands the local Methodist church. Trondheim which was one of the two largest U-boat bases, swarming with Wehrmacht and Kriegsmarine goons. Go to that church and look up a small plaque on the wall. It is in Norwegian but, hey, any local will translate: during the Occupation the attic of this church served as the secret Trondheim synagogue. Jews, invariably hidden by local Norwegians, will assemble there in secret each Sabbath for a service. This, Shriber, is not an anti-Semitic country, collaborating with the Holocaust, and if there is an iota of honour and decency in you, you should take this back.

“In fact, the whole pissing competition started with you scoffing at Mesquito whose mother, as I recall, was actually in (?) Bergen when the school was obliterated.”

Indeed, she was. Her home overlooked the harbor.

I certainly don’t hold up Norway as some great example of anything, except maybe tedium.

One recurrent episode in my life is listening to lefty Americans, unaware of my antidiluvian politics, singing praises when I reveal my Norwegian heritage.

One recurrent episode in my life is listening to lefty Americans, unaware of my antidiluvian politics, singing praises when I reveal my Norwegian heritage.

I wouldn’t fall into that category, but I do say that some of the most perfect English is spoken by Norwegians. I have, on more than one occasion, been told by Norwegians, it sounds awful.

“I wouldn’t fall into that category, but I do say that some of the most perfect English is spoken by Norwegians. I have, on more than one occasion, been told by Norwegians, it sounds awful.”

They do pretty well, but Mom, after 50 years in America, still confuses her v’s and her w’s like Samuel Weller. (“Dinner will be ready when it’s ready, you wultures.”)

One reason the younger folk’s English is so good is because it is the most common language of instruction in the universities (easier and cheaper than translating all the textbooks and materials.)

One reason the younger folk’s English is so good is because it is the most common language of instruction in the universities (easier and cheaper than translating all the textbooks and materials.)

Not really. There is exceedingly high correlation between dubbing of movies into the local language and lack of English proficiency. In Norway virtually nothing is dubbed, not even Disney cartoons, hence kids are exposed to English well before they go to university.

“In Norway virtually nothing is dubbed, not even Disney cartoons, hence kids are exposed to English well before they go to university.”

If that were the case, I’d be speaking Spanish like Ricardo Montalban.

C’mon, Mesquito… What is the proportion of Spanish cartoons/movies you’ve seen before the age of five, say? In Norway toddlers are virtually immersed in English.

Moreover, returning to your original argument… Almost everybody in Norway speaks English, but surprisingly small minority studied at university. (There are just four “real” universities in Norway and they are all quite small.) Moreover, it is only in sciences and engineering that textbooks are mostly English – in humanities and social “sciences” they are in Norwegian. At a stretch, much less than 5% of Norwegian population is exposed to English textbooks at a university.

Sorry, LitCrit, who here was holding Norway as a model par excellence to emulate?

One recurrent episode in my life is listening to lefty Americans, unaware of my antidiluvian politics, singing praises when I reveal my Norwegian heritage.

“What is the proportion of Spanish cartoons/movies you’ve seen before the age of five, say?”

Oh, about 99%.

Once or twice I may have seen a American cartoon at a movie theatre, but it’s likely I never went to one at that age. Teevee was all Spanish, including my favorite: Lupe De Loop.

What the hell is your point, Lit Critter?

wadytron: …….Israel’s abuse of Palestinians.

Come out of the cave you share with islamofascists you ignoramus.
Go read ex Palestinian Terrorist Walid Shoebat and start your daily ablution of having been brainwashed with lies of islam, islamofascists. Turds like you are a danger to society.

The unhinged commenter-of-the-day award goes to…

Lotus!

I do it like this: (blockquote)…..(/blockquote)

Thank you for a useful and helpful answer

Sorry, LitCrit, who here was holding Norway as a model par excellence to emulate?

lotus: go back and read wardytron’s (correct spelling) comment ver. very. slowly. Aloud to yourself, if it helps to illuminate the nuances and ironies. Then replace your dentures backwards so you can re-ingest your crude intemperate words.

These days, racist jokes about blacks and other minorities are largely – and correctly – regarded as an embarrassment, the preserve of failed comedians performing to inebriated audiences in seedy clubs.

In this world, however, not the alternative universe in which you live, racist cartoons of Muhammad were published in a Danish newspaper and not only they were not considered an embarrassment, but their authors were hailed as freedom of speech heros.

By the way, the joke about the fleas and lice made me laugh a lot. It’s a poignant satire of the sacredness of the Holocaust. Way to go, Otto Jespersen!

The Hasbara Buster wrote:

“By the way, the joke about the fleas and lice made me laugh a lot.”

of course, it did, just as the jokes at Stormfront probably send you into fits of giggles

we would expect nothing more from you.

If my information is right the point was that the world and media focus to much on the whereabouts of fleas and lice and not so much of real issues.

Probably not a new phenomena, as it seems there was no big outrage in Europe in the 1930’s about Nurnberg race laws, kristallnacht and concentration camps for undesirable social and political elements in the German society. At least not worse than that it as late as 1938 was possible to make the Munich pact with Nazi Germany and the big powers in Europe joined and crushed the Czechoslovakian democracy. Czechoslovakia wasn’t even allowed to participate in Munich and they where threatened by Britain and France that it would have consequences if they resisted, Czechoslovakia had mobilized more than one million men. Czechoslovakias foreign gold assets in Britain was readily handed over to Germany. Way beyond appeasement. Well not really all assets was handed over due to Churchill’s protests.

By the way, the joke about the fleas and lice made me laugh a lot. It’s a poignant satire of the sacredness of the Holocaust.

Actually it’s not. It’s a brainfart from a non-Jew who goes on about the Holocaust far more than Jews, and who, quite possibly, believes the gas-chambers were delousing rooms.

“In Norway virtually nothing is dubbed, not even Disney cartoons, hence kids are exposed to English well before they go to university.”

I do believe they dub cartons for small children, but then for the older audience it’s translated by sub texts. But at least in the public service channels they have a obligation to make a good share of Norwegian programs and especially for children. In commercial channels it’s probably mostly American programs. Overall a very large part of fiction programs is in English.

I do believe it helps a lot to listen to English and read it in your language. And of course the kids get English education in school from roundabout 9-10years of age.