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	<title>Comments on: On Islamic antisemitism</title>
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	<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/</link>
	<description>Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don&#039;t want to hear</description>
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		<title>By: Elliott A Green</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/comment-page-3/#comment-256458</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliott A Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/#comment-256458</guid>
		<description>Carlo Panella too supplies information showing that Islamic Judeophobia did have more in common with Christian Judeophobia than either Bernard Lewish or Daniel Pipes acknowledge, with all due respect to them. In his &lt;i&gt;Il &quot;Complotto Ebraico&quot;: L&#039;antisemitismo islamico da Maometto a Bin Laden&lt;/i&gt; [Torino 2005], Panella shows three early manifestations of the Jewish Conspiracy notion in Islam: 
1) When the Qur&#039;an and Hadith describe alleged Jewish plotting in Medina against Muhammad; 2) a perhaps imaginary Jewish plotter who allegedly did much to bring about the schism with the Shi`at `Ali [the Shi`ah]; a poster above mentions this supposed plotter; 3) the Shi`ite version  which claims a Jewish plot to split the Shi`a into Seveners and Twelvers. 

So the paranoia based on Jewish Conspiracy notions goes back to the origins of Islam. Panella&#039;s argument supports that of Moshe Sharon regarding the early and theological nature of Islamic Judeophobia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carlo Panella too supplies information showing that Islamic Judeophobia did have more in common with Christian Judeophobia than either Bernard Lewish or Daniel Pipes acknowledge, with all due respect to them. In his <i>Il &#8220;Complotto Ebraico&#8221;: L&#8217;antisemitismo islamico da Maometto a Bin Laden</i> [Torino 2005], Panella shows three early manifestations of the Jewish Conspiracy notion in Islam:<br />
1) When the Qur&#8217;an and Hadith describe alleged Jewish plotting in Medina against Muhammad; 2) a perhaps imaginary Jewish plotter who allegedly did much to bring about the schism with the Shi`at `Ali [the Shi`ah]; a poster above mentions this supposed plotter; 3) the Shi`ite version  which claims a Jewish plot to split the Shi`a into Seveners and Twelvers. </p>
<p>So the paranoia based on Jewish Conspiracy notions goes back to the origins of Islam. Panella&#8217;s argument supports that of Moshe Sharon regarding the early and theological nature of Islamic Judeophobia.</p>
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		<title>By: Elliott A Green</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/comment-page-3/#comment-256447</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliott A Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/#comment-256447</guid>
		<description>In my recent article in Midstream magazine, of which long excerpts appear at the link below, I go into these issues. 

http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2008/10/forgotten-oppression-of-jews-under.html

Prof. Moshe Sharon [born in Iraq, by the way] writes that the Muslims/Arab-Muslims felt special hatred for the Jews because of the conflict between Muhammad and the Jews of Medina as related in the Hadith, among other reasons. Sharon cites the medieval Baghdadi author al-Jahiz to support this opinion. So I would have to reject Bernard Lewis&#039; view, with all due respect to him, and say that there is indeed a theological aspect to Muslim/Arab Judeophobia that goes beyond the mere hatred of dhimmis. Further, numerous witnesses testify that Jews were at the bottom of the barrel in Arab-Muslim society generally, particularly in the Levant, in Syria, Israel, Egypt. On the other hand, Lewis is probably right that the Ottoman Empire may have favored Jews over Christians at certain times and places.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my recent article in Midstream magazine, of which long excerpts appear at the link below, I go into these issues. </p>
<p><a href="http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2008/10/forgotten-oppression-of-jews-under.html" rel="nofollow">http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2008/10/forgotten-oppression-of-jews-under.html</a></p>
<p>Prof. Moshe Sharon [born in Iraq, by the way] writes that the Muslims/Arab-Muslims felt special hatred for the Jews because of the conflict between Muhammad and the Jews of Medina as related in the Hadith, among other reasons. Sharon cites the medieval Baghdadi author al-Jahiz to support this opinion. So I would have to reject Bernard Lewis&#8217; view, with all due respect to him, and say that there is indeed a theological aspect to Muslim/Arab Judeophobia that goes beyond the mere hatred of dhimmis. Further, numerous witnesses testify that Jews were at the bottom of the barrel in Arab-Muslim society generally, particularly in the Levant, in Syria, Israel, Egypt. On the other hand, Lewis is probably right that the Ottoman Empire may have favored Jews over Christians at certain times and places.</p>
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		<title>By: "HPBNP"=BNP</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/comment-page-3/#comment-255716</link>
		<dc:creator>"HPBNP"=BNP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/#comment-255716</guid>
		<description>Indeed, the West is full of millions Muslims, more than Jews, in fact. The Islamic world is almost entirely empty of Jews.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, the West is full of millions Muslims, more than Jews, in fact. The Islamic world is almost entirely empty of Jews.</p>
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		<title>By: "HPBNP"=BNP</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/comment-page-3/#comment-255670</link>
		<dc:creator>"HPBNP"=BNP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 07:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/#comment-255670</guid>
		<description>“Muslim anti-semitism is a drop in the ocean compared to the rampant Jewish Islamophobia we see in our mainstream media”

Because, like, nothing sympathetic about Muslims or Islam is ever written or said in our media, whereas the media of the Islamic world is full of books, articles and programs sympathetic with Jews or Israel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Muslim anti-semitism is a drop in the ocean compared to the rampant Jewish Islamophobia we see in our mainstream media”</p>
<p>Because, like, nothing sympathetic about Muslims or Islam is ever written or said in our media, whereas the media of the Islamic world is full of books, articles and programs sympathetic with Jews or Israel.</p>
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		<title>By: Black Voter</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/comment-page-3/#comment-255659</link>
		<dc:creator>Black Voter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 05:35:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/#comment-255659</guid>
		<description>Ivan,

&quot;When did Mo the bandit destroy the Banu Quarish ? 1500 years later. enough time for moral standards to have improved.&quot;

Possibly. But when you consider Europe even after the Reformation, Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution still managed to fight two World Wars and embark on the largest genocide of all time, and I dont even have time to Wiki went happen in the Soveity Union, it would take more tham time for moral standards to have improved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ivan,</p>
<p>&#8220;When did Mo the bandit destroy the Banu Quarish ? 1500 years later. enough time for moral standards to have improved.&#8221;</p>
<p>Possibly. But when you consider Europe even after the Reformation, Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution still managed to fight two World Wars and embark on the largest genocide of all time, and I dont even have time to Wiki went happen in the Soveity Union, it would take more tham time for moral standards to have improved.</p>
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		<title>By: Yusuf Ibrahim Tadros</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/comment-page-3/#comment-255336</link>
		<dc:creator>Yusuf Ibrahim Tadros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/#comment-255336</guid>
		<description>I know, I know.  I just wrote that in the heat of the moment.  Consider having a flick through (via Google Scholar) the Yitzhak Nakash text and search for Abdullah bin Saba’, an almost certainly fictional crypto-Jewish character - there&#039;s no more proof that he existed than Muhammad, who is often associated with Shi&#039;a genesis.

Another area of enquiry could be the ongoing work into establishing the nature of the Jewish and Christian influences on Muhammad: was a toxic mixture of Nestorian Christology and apocryphal Jewish mysticism responsible for the often violently anti-Semitic motifs in which much of the Qur&#039;an is couched...did purported early Madinan converts to Islam hailing from the Jewish tribes and consequently referred to collectively by Allah as the Hypocrites, have a significant impact on Muhammad&#039;s mistrust and eventual hatred of the Jews...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know, I know.  I just wrote that in the heat of the moment.  Consider having a flick through (via Google Scholar) the Yitzhak Nakash text and search for Abdullah bin Saba’, an almost certainly fictional crypto-Jewish character &#8211; there&#8217;s no more proof that he existed than Muhammad, who is often associated with Shi&#8217;a genesis.</p>
<p>Another area of enquiry could be the ongoing work into establishing the nature of the Jewish and Christian influences on Muhammad: was a toxic mixture of Nestorian Christology and apocryphal Jewish mysticism responsible for the often violently anti-Semitic motifs in which much of the Qur&#8217;an is couched&#8230;did purported early Madinan converts to Islam hailing from the Jewish tribes and consequently referred to collectively by Allah as the Hypocrites, have a significant impact on Muhammad&#8217;s mistrust and eventual hatred of the Jews&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mikey</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/comment-page-3/#comment-255301</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/#comment-255301</guid>
		<description>Yusuf,

&lt;blockquote&gt;For me, this quote taken with those scholars, the scrappy research and anti-Christian polemic motif of this piece (no doubt it was childishly chosen for such a purpose…ho ho ho), sums up the dangerously amateur proposition of the author.&lt;/a&gt;

I can assure you that I did not write this piece as a piece of anti-Christian rhetoric.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yusuf,</p>
<blockquote><p>For me, this quote taken with those scholars, the scrappy research and anti-Christian polemic motif of this piece (no doubt it was childishly chosen for such a purpose…ho ho ho), sums up the dangerously amateur proposition of the author.</p>
<p>I can assure you that I did not write this piece as a piece of anti-Christian rhetoric.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Yusuf Ibrahim Tadros</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/comment-page-3/#comment-255274</link>
		<dc:creator>Yusuf Ibrahim Tadros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/#comment-255274</guid>
		<description>To highlight just how far back contemporary Islamic invective against other religions and Jews in particular stretches outside of the canonical texts, consider the anti-Shi&#039;a polemic surounding Abdullah bin Saba&#039; in: 

Ibn Hazm&#039;s &#039;Al-Fisal fi&#039;l-Milal w&#039;an-Nihal&#039; 
http://www.almeshkat.net/books/archive/books/mell-nehal.zip

Yitzhak Nakash&#039;s &#039;Reaching for Power: The Shi’a in the Modern Arab World&#039;
http://scholar.google.com.eg/scholar?hl=en&amp;q=author:%22Nakash%22+intitle:%22Reaching+for+Power:+The+Shi+%E2%80%98a+in+the+Modern+Arab+World%22+&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oi=scholarr</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To highlight just how far back contemporary Islamic invective against other religions and Jews in particular stretches outside of the canonical texts, consider the anti-Shi&#8217;a polemic surounding Abdullah bin Saba&#8217; in: </p>
<p>Ibn Hazm&#8217;s &#8216;Al-Fisal fi&#8217;l-Milal w&#8217;an-Nihal&#8217;<br />
<a href="http://www.almeshkat.net/books/archive/books/mell-nehal.zip" rel="nofollow">http://www.almeshkat.net/books/archive/books/mell-nehal.zip</a></p>
<p>Yitzhak Nakash&#8217;s &#8216;Reaching for Power: The Shi’a in the Modern Arab World&#8217;<br />
<a href="http://scholar.google.com.eg/scholar?hl=en&amp;q=author:%22Nakash%22+intitle:%22Reaching+for+Power:+The+Shi+%E2%80%98a+in+the+Modern+Arab+World%22+&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oi=scholarr" rel="nofollow">http://scholar.google.com.eg/scholar?hl=en&amp;q=author:%22Nakash%22+intitle:%22Reaching+for+Power:+The+Shi+%E2%80%98a+in+the+Modern+Arab+World%22+&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oi=scholarr</a></p>
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		<title>By: Yusuf Ibrahim Tadros</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/comment-page-3/#comment-255243</link>
		<dc:creator>Yusuf Ibrahim Tadros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/#comment-255243</guid>
		<description>&quot;Whilst it is true that the Koran has some negative comments about Jews, from the time it was written until the 19th century, antisemitism, as we understand it, was not a noted Islamic quality.&quot;

For me, this quote taken with those scholars, the scrappy research and anti-Christian polemic motif of this piece (no doubt it was childishly chosen for such a purpose...ho ho ho), sums up the dangerously amateur proposition of the author:

To claim, relying almost entirely on Lewis&#039; name and a couple of quotes, that a brief survey of &#039;Islamic texts&#039; has led these scholars and yourself to this unescapable conclusion is risible; to assert that contemporary Islamic anti-Jew polemics and apologia have somehow crystallised as a result of European Christian influence is a whopping great deduction.

Until you and the scholars you cite can demonstrate that Islam did not definitively spring from a complex admixture of Judaeo-Christian influences, your whole premise is flawed: why, one could just as easily claim that Judaism itself sowed the seeds for contemporary Islamic bigotry.

I am totally unconvinced, not the least because of the literature in which I have been immersed these past years dealing specifically with Islamic textual criticism; I&#039;ve yet to see any works of note in this discipline key to understanding Islam&#039;s dogma by these fellows.  Perhaps you yourself have surveyed the thousands of texts in Arabic, the vast majority unavailable in translation, and determined the extent and origins of Islamic Jew-hatred?  Surely you&#039;ve built up a credible body of pre-Young Turk Christian anti-Semitic texts with which to compare them?

No offense is intended here to you or any of the authors you cite.  Indeed, I really ought to have read the works of these chaps to get a feel for where you&#039;re coming from.  My reaction is partly because of the frothing anti-Christian tropes on display here from people who would identify with Jewish ethnicity but consider themselves agnostic or atheist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Whilst it is true that the Koran has some negative comments about Jews, from the time it was written until the 19th century, antisemitism, as we understand it, was not a noted Islamic quality.&#8221;</p>
<p>For me, this quote taken with those scholars, the scrappy research and anti-Christian polemic motif of this piece (no doubt it was childishly chosen for such a purpose&#8230;ho ho ho), sums up the dangerously amateur proposition of the author:</p>
<p>To claim, relying almost entirely on Lewis&#8217; name and a couple of quotes, that a brief survey of &#8216;Islamic texts&#8217; has led these scholars and yourself to this unescapable conclusion is risible; to assert that contemporary Islamic anti-Jew polemics and apologia have somehow crystallised as a result of European Christian influence is a whopping great deduction.</p>
<p>Until you and the scholars you cite can demonstrate that Islam did not definitively spring from a complex admixture of Judaeo-Christian influences, your whole premise is flawed: why, one could just as easily claim that Judaism itself sowed the seeds for contemporary Islamic bigotry.</p>
<p>I am totally unconvinced, not the least because of the literature in which I have been immersed these past years dealing specifically with Islamic textual criticism; I&#8217;ve yet to see any works of note in this discipline key to understanding Islam&#8217;s dogma by these fellows.  Perhaps you yourself have surveyed the thousands of texts in Arabic, the vast majority unavailable in translation, and determined the extent and origins of Islamic Jew-hatred?  Surely you&#8217;ve built up a credible body of pre-Young Turk Christian anti-Semitic texts with which to compare them?</p>
<p>No offense is intended here to you or any of the authors you cite.  Indeed, I really ought to have read the works of these chaps to get a feel for where you&#8217;re coming from.  My reaction is partly because of the frothing anti-Christian tropes on display here from people who would identify with Jewish ethnicity but consider themselves agnostic or atheist.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Scholar</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/comment-page-3/#comment-255174</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Scholar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/on-islamic-antisemitism/#comment-255174</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;No, it doesnt sound like anti semitism. It sounds like tribal justice. Especially when you consider that, had the tables been turned, the same would have happened to the Arabs...&lt;/i&gt;

Sure it would have.  I mean thank God Mohammad committed genocide first!

Whew imagine if he hadn&#039;t.  Something bad might have happened.

&quot;Black Voter&quot; if you haven&#039;t been called a fucking monster yet today, let me be the first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>No, it doesnt sound like anti semitism. It sounds like tribal justice. Especially when you consider that, had the tables been turned, the same would have happened to the Arabs&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Sure it would have.  I mean thank God Mohammad committed genocide first!</p>
<p>Whew imagine if he hadn&#8217;t.  Something bad might have happened.</p>
<p>&#8220;Black Voter&#8221; if you haven&#8217;t been called a fucking monster yet today, let me be the first.</p>
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