Harry's Place

Mrs Pangloss is quite scared of dogs, although she’s getting a little better. Wants a cat though.

One fun activity to be had in Clissold Park is watching Hassids trying to retain composure while clearly wanting to run like hell away from the nasty unclean dogs.

Hundal is such a pseudo-liberal ignoramus. He gets worse with each passing week.

He has become so sure that he speaks for ‘brown people’ (to use his phrase) that he’s given up switching on his brain before posting. All self-indulgent waffle and knee-jerk posing.

Right now there is a cat laid out on my desk a few inches in front of my keyboard, and a dog on the floor beside my chair, which is the same most days.

They are both very clean.

Hundal is such a pseudo-liberal ignoramus. He gets worse with each passing week.

What Sunny actually says is that if Muslim shopkeepers don’t want to display the notice then that is their right. Hardly an outrageous sentiment.

Lets set up a religion which regards robins as unclean. Then we could really make a fuss about all those Christmas cards.

That’s quite an important public message they’re refusing to put up Andrew. To refuse they should have a good reason not some made up absurd nonsense that’s not even a religious requirement.

I notice some wedding registrars are refusing to conduct civil partnerships because they say their consciences don’t allow it. Do you think that’s OK as well ?

“One fun activity to be had in Clissold Park is watching Hassids trying to retain composure while clearly wanting to run like hell away from the nasty unclean dogs.”

I walk my dog in Clissold Park every day.

I find that ultra-religious types are terrified of my tiny border terrier puppy. Unfortunately they manifest this terror by shrieking and running around. Shrieking and running around is about the most exciting thing is a border terrier puppy’s life, so she chases after them.

The people who seem to be most frighened are Muslims wearing religious garb, and Haredi Jews. Muslims, I appreciate have this ritual cleanliness problem with dog saliva. Jews, as far as I know, don’t have any religious issue. My guess is that, because the Haredis are too busy praying to have dogs, they don’t know how to deal with them.

Normal Jews and Muslims seem generally positive towards dogs: particularly the Kurds.

Registrars are paid to perform civil partnership ceremonies and should be sacked if they won’t. Shopkeepers aren’t paid to display police posters, they do it (or not) as a gesture of goodwill.

BTW Sunny on this is really losing the plot,even his PP acolytes seem to think he’s gone barmy – http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/2118#comment-123236

He seemed quite sensible once now its apparent he’s just another idiotic race baiter and identity politics self promoter.

It’s a registrar’s job to conduct civil partnerships. Shopkeepers have no particular duty to display notices on behalf of the police or anyone else.

But if they refuse to do a simple public service because of an absurd made up “offence” that only a extreme Islamic fundamentalist would find valid then in my view they should be looked at askance and condemned at the very least.

Are photographs of dogs unclean, or just dogs themselves.
Are photos of prawns allowed in a kosher kitchen?

I read Sunny’s twisted view of the doggie poster scandal earlier, and actually his flat-earther post is whackier than the Muslim who made the fuss about a puppy in the first place.

How can the Daily Mail be blamed for this? Are people actually suggesting the Daily Mail should not report this story?

I suppose the HP’s motto of “liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they dont want to hear” stretches to the Daily Mail or are they exempt from this lofty principle?

This whole image is deeply troubling to me.
You can tell you’re getting old when even the police dogs look like puppies.
So, please tell, is the dog trained to answer the phone; presumably all of Tayside’s police officers are busy on ‘emergency’ calls? Or is the dog itself about to make the call? (If so, would not large button dial be easier on the paws?).
Perhaps it is not a police dog at all, but is ringing to confess having stolen the police hat? If so, surely by the priorities of today’s police forces this would require an emergency call?
Or is the dog simply relieving itself on the police hat, perhaps in a pavlovian response to an incoming call? If so, is this now an arrestable offence in Tayside given that police force’s high regard for the musings of ‘hard-line clerics’ (your quote above)?
Does the old fashioned style of the phone suggest that you may have to wait a long time for anyone to answer? Or that poor people who cannot afford new phones should only use the non-emergency phone-line?
More constructively, would it not just be easier for every local authority, police force and college in the country to ask its local mosque, church, synagogue and temple to approve all publicity before it is published? If that worked well, it could be rolled out to other publications and thence to the private sector also.

Here’s an analogy for you then Andrew : how about if some Christian fundamentalist refused to display a public information poster about a nearby hospital on the grounds that there was an HIV clinic there and he/she abhorred homosexuality.

You’d rightly condemn such an idiot wouldn’t you ?

Jews, as far as I know, don’t have any religious issue: I tried to look this up, and became bogged down in arcane debates between different Rabbinic views and rulings, with the anti views on the lines of dogs being frivolous distractions. On the whole, on balance, it seems dog owning is allowed. But along the way there is repeated mention of the barking of fierce dogs (i.e. not all barking) being liable to cause miscarriage. So keep your dog away from pregnant Haredi women, David T. Maybe someone (Judy?) can enlighten further.

Imagine my delight when I learned that Zorastrianism dedicated whole books to discussing the proper treatment of dogs. Imagine my despair when I discovered this was the humane treatment, and not smearing them in treacle and binding them to ant hills.

What Sunny actually says is that if Muslim shopkeepers don’t want to display the notice then that is their right. Hardly an outrageous sentiment.

What Sunny actually says is the literary equivalent of gossamer. That is, absolutely no substance and which can be claimed to have been anything when, on touching, it vanishes. And Sid is a prat.

MMN, I might think he was a bit of an idiot. I’d probably think he may be a bigot. I would still say it should be up to him whether he wanted to display the poster. If he was refusing to serve homosexuals in his shop it would be different.

The thing is though that religious objections to certain animals, whilst we may consider them silly, harm no-one, whereas the same can’t be said about prejudice against homosexuals. Therefore the two cases would not quite be equivalent.

It seems to me that if some shop keepers didn’t want to put up a card advertising the police it might not have been the dog part that they found most disturbing. Maybe it was the institution they didn’t want to support.

The story pitched the way the media and this councillor pitches it sounds like rubbish to me – but there may actually be a rational kernal to this story. I’d quite like to hear from one of these “offended” shopkeepers to hear what they have to say *for themselves* rather than having everyone else speaking for them and making them sound like morons.

Although obviously I’m not ruling this out – they might be morons, but as far as I’m concerned the jury is still out.

By the way, if I was having a civil partnership I would not want a homophobe conducting it so I’d be perfectly happy with them refusing as the alternative might be the registrar spoiling my big day.

What Sunny actually says is the literary equivalent of gossamer. That is, absolutely no substance and which can be claimed to have been anything when, on touching, it vanishes.

So why are people here complaining about it?

“Are photos of prawns allowed in a kosher kitchen”

It depends. I’m no halachic authority, but I’ll have a pop. I don’t think it would affect someone’s private kitchen, because as long as they’re keeping the standard laws (milk separated from meat, etc.) the food should be good to go.

However, if you are selling food (as a manufacturer, restaurateur or caterer) you require certification from one of many rabbinates (and religious Jews can take their pick of to follow). This certification would involve an inspection and it would come down to the discretion of the rabbi involved (or perhaps he would refer it). I think the approach to these issues tends to be quite arbitrary, and can involve factors beyond whether the food itself is kosher – and quite likely, a pay-off.

For instance, you won’t find a kosher restaurant that’s open on Shabbat, although you’ll find plenty of people who are not ’shomer Shabbat’ (observant of the Sabbath) but who keep kosher. I don’t think any rabbinate would approve such a venture because it would encourage people to break the sabbath, even though no laws of kashrut need necessarily.

I also remember some years ago, a chocolate manufacturer in Israel running a promotional tie-in for one of the Jurassic Park films, which involved placing a dinosaur logo on the wrappers. As everyone knows, dinosaurs have never existed, and such a promotion could only encourage a view counter to the world having been created by G-d in seven days. The company in question was promptly ordered to cease the promotion or face having the kashrut licence removed from all its products. It complied.

I hope that answers your question, however inaccurately.

That’s funny. I’d assumed that the Muslim dog thing came from an earlier Jewish dog thing. Will have to ask her indoors about it again. I’m sure she’s probably explained it all to me already.

Oh, come on, Andrew. You must have asbestos cheeks! People are complaining because he, like disingenuous idiots, spreads disigenenuity and reduces serious political discussions to the level of a food fight at St. Trinians, and, despite claiming to want a serious Internet debate of X, quickly resorts to name-calling and bare-faced denials of his clearly visible previous statements.

Or am I missing something in your late comment?

Although PP does have a four minute edit option. Why can HP not?

Fine Andrew – so for you, anyone can refuse to put up a public information poster for any made up “religious reason” they like and you would never condemn their action.

In this instance however we have also a person speaking for a religious group complaining about the posters. Imagine some Christian bigot spokesman doing the same in my analogy situation and the authorities backing down and apologising due to “sensitivities”. Would that be acceptable ? I think not – you would be outraged.

I remember being told that one should not eat bacon flavoured crisps, because it might encourage a desire to eat bacon.

Of course, this is nonsense. It is nonsense because:

(a) As far as I can tell, the a good chunk of the kashrut rules stem from some sort of closed shop monopoly that the priests in Jerusalem had over the meat slaughtering industry*

(b) Is god really supposed to be concerned with issues such as “is a turbot kosher”? If so, this is a god with a form of autism**

(c) God actually doesn’t exist and the religious texts from which these laws are derived are incoherent nonsense.

* c/f beth din, kashrut, dinosaurs on chocolate bars, etc.

** I’ve heard it suggested that these pernickty rules are all about “not being a slave to your passions”

i’d like a visible “recent comments section”

I nearly missed Alec being offered out by the anti semite John Wight.

It is rather pathetic. This is not a Muslim country thank God and we should not care about whether Muslims are offended by dogs or not.
The best way to stop more terrorist attacks would be to show we are not going to back down i.e. not grovel to Muslims. And of course less Muslim immigration.

HOWEVER

I would like to recommend to all Muslims and Jews, fabulous new Bacon Salt:

http://www.baconsalt.com/

“We’re Justin and Dave, the two guys behind Bacon Salt™ and this is our improbable bacon-flavored story. Who are we? We’re just two regular guys who love grilling and football on Sunday afternoons, eating until we can’t get off the couch and of course, the taste of great bacon. And it’s our dream to make everything taste like bacon.

http://www.baconsalt.com/ourstory.php

And here’s the great thing. Bacon salt is suitable for vegetarians! Yes, it contains no actual bacon.

What happens if you put baconsalt on salty bacon? What then, David? WHAT THEN?

Pangloss:

My recollection is that there is a proscription against keeping dogs in one’s home (and against lingering in latrines, and all sorts of other places as well). I saw it years ago in either the Shulchan Aruch or another such book my father had in his library.

Apparently the councillor who complained is a bit of an exhibitionist, and there is not an awful lot of support for his posturing. Most Muslims just want to earn bucket loads of cash and get on with life, not involve themselves in petty arguments with their neighbours and customers. I know there was a taxi driver who refused to carry a guide dog for the blind, but he was fined. I think a lot of fnon-Europeans don’t like the British havit of keeping pets, but tough luck. It’s what we do.

Alec, I disagree with you about Sunny. I don’t visit PP much but Liberal Conspiracy is one of the better leftish sites I have seen and I agree with a lot of what he posts there, and I certainly think he is one of the good guys. But then certain writers do rub some people up the wrong way, intentionally sometimes, and and if some people here disagree with me it’s no big deal – he can defend himself if he chooses.
I just though it odd that given there is so much insubstantial and disingenuous stuff posted on the internet why people here seem so concerned with what Sunny has to say in particular.

What happens if you put baconsalt on salty bacon? What then, David? WHAT THEN?

You will have sinned against the great god of healthy eating and Patricia Hewitt will punish you.

Fine Andrew – so for you, anyone can refuse to put up a public information poster for any made up “religious reason” they like and you would never condemn their action.

I might certainly think they are being silly but no, I’m not going to “condemn” them unless you can show that their actions are actually likely to cause any harm. It’s not that I think they are right, I just don’t think it’s important enough to get bothered about.

In this instance however we have also a person speaking for a religious group complaining about the posters. Imagine some Christian bigot spokesman doing the same in my analogy situation and the authorities backing down and apologising due to “sensitivities”. Would that be acceptable ? I think not – you would be outraged.

Yes I would. I also think that the Dundee police are being ridiculous in aplogising for the poster. It’s still not quite the same though – I happen to think that bigotry towards homosexuals (whether by Christians or Muslims) is a rather more serious matter than religious attitudes towards certain animals.

“You will have sinned against the great god of healthy eating and Patricia Hewitt will punish you”

Help! I’m being infantilised. Someone call Claire Fox!

Andrew, people are complaining about Sunny because he’s thick, and sometimes comes around here to peddle his confused concept of freedom of speech.

He cannot distinguish between someone’s right to refuse to place an innocuous postcard in their shop, and the unreasonableness of either their doing so, a politician complaining about said postcard, and the police’s ludicrous capitulation.

Similarly, in a case of two instances of offence being taken, Sunny is neutral on whether the offended have reason to feel so – so he can make no distinction to be made between refusing to promote terrorism or refusing to display a picture of a puppy.

Likewise, he thinks that criticism of the giving of a platform to a theocratic dictator amounts to an attack on the right to give such a platform.

He’s completely incapable of distinguishing between the right to hold a peaceful protest and the right to shout ‘fire’ in a theatre.

Most of all, he’s good value: it’s hilarious to see how he’ll wiggle his way out the logical knots he ties himself up in. Usually it involves lying, by saying he was only joking.

None of this is good I think.

Sunny is absolutely right that they have ‘a right’ to complain. But I don’t think anyone denied that. People are dismayed not because someone had the right to complain, but because someone did. Having the right to do something doesn’t automatically make it sensible or reasonable. The reaction follows from the response being UNreasonable and senseLESS, not from whether thre was a right to react this way. IN that sense, Sunny’s argument is a red herring.

“I remember being told that one should not eat bacon flavoured crisps, because it might encourage a desire to eat bacon.”

Well, thank G-d for “smokey flavour“!

Andrew, I used to concur a lot with Sunny, but, can’t quite put my finger on when, he’s become a momumental tit. Mato grosso as they say in Brazil. His facial hair has impacted, and is strangling his brain.

Much of the stuff on the Interweb thing is indeed vapid, but it knows it’s vapid. When you claim to be seeking an intelligent discussion, and the barge into any discussion demanding apologies for a war the speaker never supported or shouting “looser” and “boring” or, when completely tarred ‘n feathered, claiming to have been only joshing, you do sort of set yourself up for ridicule. HP is more likely to concern itself with another British political blogger which it sees going over to the twat side than it is with a local Californian political blogger, say, or one which discusses knitting. Stands to reason.

I recently asked a religious friend whether he really believed that G-d cared if there was a little rennet in the parmasan on his pasta. He said that he did.

I don’t know why, but it surprised me.

What is really getting up my nose is the way the likes of Councillor Asif start pouting about their sensibilities being upset over a non issue like this, then claim it is a concern of their wider “community” (community =New Labour speak for ethnic groups, usually Moslem, containing known grievance-mongers who cry racist or islamophobic at every imagined slight and so have to be placated by the authorities), then Asif goes on to whinge about diversity advisors not being consulted (diversity advisor =New Labour speak for jumped up policeman assigned to liaise with the grievance mongers in the said community to avoid charges of racism or islamophobia against the police).

Incidentally I read that there is a suspicion that Asif leaked the story to the press himself, to show himself in an imagined good light.

Also, as Modernity has pointed out, Sunny gets very animated about approval of professional toddler, Deborah Fink, being prevented from interupted an Israeli cultural event and shouting down a megachiroptera at children, and is now getting very animated at disapproval of taking offence at a picture of a dog.

He’s a seriously fucked-up kid.

Let me see if i have this
No muslims kicked up a fuss except a man named mohammed who is a muslim.

Sounds like a muslim kicked up a fuss to me.

Megachiroptera?

“Megachiroptera”

From the 10th Godzilla movie, iirc

1- “”"”Both dogs and cats are vectors for disease. “”"”

so are humans! My sister contaminated my dog with fungae because she had this irritating habit of using my dog as a carpet, rubbing her feet on his skin.

it took me 4 years and lots of money to cure the dog, because the vets didn’t find what was the source of the problem.

finally I went to my old vet and he said: does anyone in the family has any problem of fungae on the feet? my mother almost died of shame when I remembered about my sister.

then the vet prescribed medication both for the dog and my sister.

they both healed.

2- Dogs and Islam, cats and catholicism

I have a black cat.

in some periods of my country’s history, this would be enough to have me burnt alive in Rossio, Lisbon’s main square, where the ‘holy inquisition’ held their ‘autos de fé’

http://stuffgodhates.wordpress.com/2008/05/10/20-cats/

one of these days I will be forced to wear a burka not to offend oversensitive white people who may be afraid that my mini-skirts offend muslims????

what kind of dope are these people using? they really should complain with their dealer…

I nearly missed Alec being offered out by the anti semite John Wight.

So did I, Tim. Fortunately, Sackcloth was there to tell me it wasn’t collywobbles.

by the way, conservative christians don’t like my mini skirts either. they say they are indecent! (I really don’t like to discriminate between fundamentalists… )

Well Alec we are going to have to get you in training if you are going to be a contender against this boy:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/72/196122212_11e3ce6cdf.jpg?v=0

Which hoedown is that photo from?

Why that’s the famous: “Edinburgh Stop the War in Lebanon Protest.”

Those with too much time and too little life will find 38 more here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/schemieradge/196122212/in/set-72157594208717504/

Tuck my t-shirt in, and I’ll be a contender.

Wait till he’s stopped pissing on the cause he espouses.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/schemieradge/196121979/in/set-72157594208717504/

More demonising of Muslims on the BNP lite site Harrys Place
I and the vast majority of Muslims dont care a bit about this poster or issue but find one Muslim to quote and you can again Der Sturmer us.

Minoan
“How can the Daily Mail be blamed for this? Are people actually suggesting the Daily Mail should not report this story?”

Yes its a total non story only promoted by hate mongerers
Your mates at the BNP are already using it to get morevotes and move closer to a Muslimrein UK
hppp://www.bnp.org.uk/2008/07/2793/

[Link to fascist website defanged - admin]

I am sure Me is Bob Pitt.

Me = Sonic^10

So me – you also condemn the police to giving into this race baiting religious zealot fool ?

Excellent – we’re all in agreement.

As to the “demonising of Muslims” I don’t see that here. David T went out of his way to explain how most Muslims condemn this idiot. Can you explain please ?

Or are you just another foaming at the mouth victim playing cretin ?

A muslimrein UK Sounds fucking great to me chum.

The sooner the better.

Oh dear.

The idiots are out in force this evening.

Phil, me – perhaps you could take this somewhere else?

Phil and “me”,

Fuck off, the both of you.

Although rather amusingly some of the BNP commentators think Dundee is part of England.

Brainless fascists.

I’ll take this as tacit approval for Phil, but not Me, from HP, Neil.

I was against the idea of Shariah Courts – until now!

I now realise what a great idea they would be and provide great employment opportunities in Muslim communities.

Each town creates at least one Shariah Court which are all linked nationally by the Internet. It would operate by e-mail and issuing Fatwa’s on the website.

In large cities there might be one such Shariah Hi Tec office per borough.

Whenever anyone thinks about doing absolutely ANYTHING they look to see if there is a Fatwa about it already or they e-mail their questions into Shariah Central. You know the stuff “Would it be OK to take the family to see Raid on Entebbe at the Roxy?” or “Would it offend anyone if my wife wore a backless and strapless number to a wedding?”

I can just see all the servers with names of Prophets. Answers are delivered by a huge cartoon animate with head covering and long beard who they insist must be on 70% of your screen.

The image wil be known as Big Al.

Now if anyone see that effing George Orwell nicking my idea let me know and I’ll sue!!!

Is it actually in the Koran that dogs pollute moslems if they so much as look at an image of one, or is it another example of the absurd ab reductio interpretation of some obscure Koranic text?

And if so which branch of Moslem in the UK believes this? Presumably Mr Asif’s as he appeared to think there was widespread support for his views in Dundee which is why he took it up with the Chief Constable and why Tayside police (god help us) apologised.

I assume shops run by Moslems who share his views won’t sell any product with an image of a dog on it. What a strange world Mr Asif and his friends must inhabit – and Sunny Hundal too.

Personally I wouldn’t mind if Councillor Asif visited Århus Denmark and lectured some of the young turkish and palestenians guys about muslim non ‘use of dogs’ . It’s rather wellknown that dogs are being kept for dogfightning in their part of the city.
The problem with muslims is that there is so much confusion among them about what is allowed, and what is not, and that they waste our public sphere with trivial discussions.
But of course you shouldn’t underestimate the problems they encounter while living in a non muslim country.
MCB f.ex have to use resources to review the teaching of guide dogs
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3087362.ece

me – there are reports coming in that Asif himself placed the story in the press as he assumed it would increase his profile and popularity with his constituents.

One must assume, if it is true, that many of them share his views about dogs and have told him so. Else why would he think wringing an apology out of the police was a cause for praise and congratulations?

I see the poster @me as someone who not even MPAC UK can tolerate. I feel intuitively he’s a Muslim because of the great interest in Jews and Zionism that he can’t seem to get right.

Look, nothing wrong with being a Muslims Islamist. Plenty of Jews posting here (I guess) and a few Zionists.

I like posters like “me” because they are SO easy to take the piss out of and for every point they try to score they lose two for their cause. Unlike MPAC UK we don’t seem to ban posters or block their IP addresses – which is why HP is a great blog.

David T, we might find the laws on Kashrut outdated and quaint but I respect anyone who wants to keep Kosher. I agree that the laws are outdated but so can many other customs be outdated.

These quaint customs, ceremonies and festivals are what keeps Judaism strands together.

I treasure thoss strands myself even if I don’t choose to follow them. Isn’t that the mode of modern Jews? A pick n mix approach to take the best of it and drop what isn’t convenient?

(a) As far as I can tell, the a good chunk of the kashrut rules stem from some sort of closed shop monopoly that the priests in Jerusalem had over the meat slaughtering industry*

Kosher dietary laws are obviously designed to separate Jews from non-Jews and to discourage intermarriage. Its harder to sleep together if you can’t eat together.

I’ll take this as tacit approval for Phil, but not Me, from HP, Neil.

No, they can both fuck off. I thought I made that clear. Especially Phil. With brass knobs on.

“More demonising of Muslims on the BNP lite site”

So,”me”, go back and re-read the following, which had already been stated right at the start of this post:

“And the reason it is pathetic is not because we are caving in to “Dhimmitude”, as the more unhinged commentators suggest, but because the very community that is suggested to be offended is not in fact offended”

Are you a fucking moron, or just a fuckless moron?

“Kosher dietary laws are obviously designed to separate Jews from non-Jews and to discourage intermarriage. Its harder to sleep together if you can’t eat together”

So the real reason why British food is such crap, is to keep immigrants and foreigners from intermarrying with us?

HP never ceases to dismay me. BNP this, BNP that, we love the BNP!

What are you on about?

This post is about three things:

1. Idiots who seek to police, or be seen to Police, what is acceptable to communities, when evidence seems to suggest there is no problem.

2. Institutions who are too quick to apologise on the basis of such complaints, for fear of being viewed as racist.

3. Those, like the Daily Mail and their readers, who will use such incidents to demonise a whole community in a bigoted fashion or to suggest that society is under the sway of Islamists.

My position on the BNP is that they are racist bigots who will exploit such incidents to their own advantage. That does not mean such incidents should not be discussed. In fact, it makes it essential that such incidents are examined to ascertain what the facts are.

In this case, there appears to have been no widespread complaints from the Muslim community, and the whole circus developed from the actions of a single Labour Party member, and a Police force who did not have the guts to stand up to a ridiculous accusation/concern. This has been reported as “Muslim outrage”, which it is patently not.

I am not sure what point you are making about the BNP and HP. I oppose the BNP, as do all the other contributors to this blog. It is also not clear to me why you consider that I gave tacit support to Phil, when I explicitly told him to fuck off for posting his “muslimrein UK” comment.

Phil

“A muslimrein UK Sounds fucking great to me chum.

The sooner the better.”

What exactly is it about Harry’s Place that attracts posters like this…

Yes, but it also attracts posters like yourself and Sonic, Benji, and TheIrie.

The BBC’s Have your say, The Telegraph, and Comment is Free also attract repugnant nutjob commentators.

Must be the ying to your yang, Me.

Well actually Cllr Asif claimed he had been approached by shopkeepers locally who felt unable to support the police campaign because it used an “unclean” dog in its imagery and publicity, and said that he was reflecting their views back to the police and the Chief Constable.

It is hard to know who looks the more stupid, Cllr Asif for blowing up a cloud of dust over this or the Police and their “diversity awareness” team for their daft knee jerk reaction.

But it is clearly not just the complaint of one man but a small vocal group of local Dundee Moslems. The story is not therefore the invention of the Daily Mail even if you deplore how it has been covered.

This really is stupid you know. Lots of religions require women to cover their heads, (not just Moslems, orthodox jews, plymouth brethern etc and regard it irreligious not to do so.) Would the same arguments have been advanced about a campaign featuring a bare headed woman?

Graham

“Chinese women are like dogs”

“What’s wrong with having Yvonne Ridley raped, It might knock some sense into her”

John Palubiski

“Anatolians are genetically inferior to European Turks”

“Gay’s spread AIDS wherever they go”

I repeat the question, what is it about Harry’s place that attracts these sorts of people

I didn’t know that Islam had negative views on dogs… That’s a big hit against it in my book! You learn something new every day.

And the reason it is pathetic is not because we are caving in to “Dhimmitude”, as the
more unhinged commentators suggest,
but because the very community that is suggested to be offended is not in fact offended:

So what you find offensive in the police reaction isn’t its caving into Dhimmitude, but rather that the offended Muslims weren’t offended? Conversely, if Muslims had had a good religious reason for being offended you would have found the apology justified?

HP also attracts race baiting scum like you “me”, it appears. Very unfortunate I know, but that’s what free speech is all about.

As a racist yourself (you think Muslims are so sensitive about robust criticism against their religion they can’t defend themselves rationally but instead have to rant on idiotically about “demonisation”) you and “Phil” are obviously made for each other.

So what you find offensive in the police reaction isn’t its caving into Dhimmitude, but rather that the offended Muslims weren’t offended?

Firstly, it isn’t caving into to Dhimmitude because the idea that there is Dhimmitude in Dundee is a fantasy perpetrated by right-wing nutjobs with no sense of perspective. Secondly, what I find annoying in the Police reaction is the fact they are so willing to save into complaints before actually gauging what the the real reaction is, and without actually judging if the material is offensive. Which it is not.

Conversely, if Muslims had had a good religious reason for being offended you would have found the apology justified?

No. There is nothing to apologise for given that dogs are a commonplace sight in the UK, and there is no intent to cause offense by the Police. We cannot run a sensible society if groups of any faith can go around inventing offenses against their sensibilities. If this is the mindset that diversity training is breeding, then it is actually having a counter-productive effect to that intended.

Hah. I go out for an evening to see Prince Caspian (it would appear processing power is cheap nowadays) and everything goes to the, err, dogs.

Just to throw fuel onto the fire, I do thoroughly approve of Mohammed’s attitude to cats.

It is important to note that “me” shares an IP address with a commentator named Tagnuzlsx, and has been taken to task about lying over comments made by Graham before now. This was posted by David T:

Apparently, it isn’t only Graham who hasn’t said “Chinese women are like dogs”.

According to Google, nobody has ever said this.

http://tinyurl.com/4ov2ta

Somebody has said “Anatolian people are fundamentalist muslims because they are genetically inferior”. It is Tagnuzlsx.

http://tinyurl.com/46jnvh

Honestly, you RCP-ers are so lazy. You could have had a go at Graham for attacking Boris Johnson, or John P for almost any part of the bollock he comes up with.

But instead, you’ve just made something up.

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/06/05/counterpunch-a-neo-nazi-magazine/

I am also no fan of John Palubiski, but your rewriting of his orginal comment to make it racist is somewhat suspect. Here is Mark T’s comment on your accusation:

Mark T, have you even read the original comment by Palubiski. The guy is a total racist.

Yes. Here it is -

Its [Istanbul’s] inhabitants are mainly the descendants of the Devshirme, and so the attitudes observed there are more akin to what one finds in Sofia, Belgrade or Athens.

Yes, total racist.

You twat.

Don’t make up things about what people say and expect to get away with it.

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/06/02/a-huge-piss-take/

by the way, conservative christians don’t like my mini skirts either. they say they are indecent! (I really don’t like to discriminate between fundamentalists… )

Good Work Comrade Franco!

I did have a hankering for a Markfein UK, many Marks annoy me and one, the dull grey blur that he is, is now seeing my ex. But I got over it and rejoiced in not being called Mark. Maybe Phillip should learn the beauty of manning the fuck up.

I think me might be Bob Pitt or Tuxglxx-blah-blah-blah, any other offers?

Graham deleted his misogynistic and racist posts about half an hour after he posted them, then furiously denied making them in the first place. Pretty silly of him really.

Graham deleted his misogynistic and racist posts about half an hour after he posted them, then furiously denied making them in the first place.

This is, of course, a lie

I suspect this obsessive paranoia against certain species, is ultimately derived from the hazards of eating them. In the oppressive heat of the arabian desert, pork would look like a fairly dangerous last resort. And under any circumstances, consumption of canines is potentially very dangerous. Antarctic expeditions were occasionally driven to killing and eating their huskies. Some of them were poisoned by doing so. Maybe this is the case with all carnivores, I just know we don’t usually eat them, probably for good reason.

Of course, the British take a similarly dim view of eating dogs, cats, hamsters, ponies, donkeys and budgies. One should never cook one’s friends. most expecially, one should never cook one’s childrens’ pets.

But there is absolutely no justification whatsoever, for some rancid chief constable to go cringeing on his knees to a bunch of professional bleaters who found a pretext for a hissy fit because of a puppy on a blimin postcard.

Every time a creep rushes to humiliate himself in this manner, he humiliates us all.

Also let us bear in mind that islam proscribes the depiction of all living creatures. Therefore we would have to do away with the coinage, the banknotes, and the postage stamps.

All of which the muslims found quite acceptable when they arrived here. In fact I have come across no reports of muslims refusing to accept Sterling in the UK.
Funny that…

I used to concur a lot with Sunny, but, can’t quite put my finger on when, he’s become a momumental tit. Mato grosso as they say in Brazil. His facial hair has impacted, and is strangling his brain.

That had me off my chair in chuckles. Perhaps Hundal gave up with the facial hair in order to concentrate on removing that which was preventing the sun shining out of his arse.

So what you find offensive in the police reaction isn’t its caving into Dhimmitude, but rather that the offended Muslims weren’t offended?

Firstly, it isn’t caving into to Dhimmitude because the idea that there is Dhimmitude in Dundee is a fantasy perpetrated by right-wing nutjobs with no sense
of perspective.
What perspective is appropriate for judging whether numerous small incidents similar to that represent isolated incidents or a broader phenomena which we may call Dhimmitude or more value neutrally asymmetric tolerance.
If more than 30 percent of Muslims regard accommodation of sharia norms concerning cleanliness and censorship as a condition for societal harmony, you can’t dismiss the entire debate over Dhimmitude as paranoia, since taking the said 20 percent of Muslims at their word must necessarily entail an appraisal of what they want from society and what they would do if they had the power to influence the political process.

Secondly, what I find annoying in the Police reaction is the fact they are so willing to save into complaints before actually gauging what
the the real reaction is, and without actually judging if the material is offensive. Which it is not.

Conversely, if Muslims had had a good religious reason for being offended you would have found the apology justified?

No. There is nothing to apologise for given that dogs are a commonplace sight in the UK, and there is no intent to cause offense by the Police. We cannot
run a sensible society if groups of any faith can go around inventing offenses against their sensibilities. If this is the mindset that diversity training
is breeding, then it is actually having a counter-productive effect to that intended.

I agree, but then even considering the real reaction in light of whether the judged material was offensive to Muslims is unnecessary and counterproductive since you thereby concede ground to those who claim that public service should be tailored not to offend Muslims. Either offensiveness matter or it does not, in which case even basing a rejection of the asserted offensiveness on an appeal to a prominent community spokesman is wrong.
Sensitivity training is stupid because it assumes that religious feelings is more deserving of sensitivity than nonreligious feelings. If a secular individual says he doesn’t like dogs and as a consequence thereof avoids any contact with the judged material, he is a nut, and no one would even argue over whether the “real reaction” of dog haters was based on a rational belief, but just because the alleged insensitivity flows from a religious source, you have to go to great length just in order to having the idiocy rebutted.

I knew this would happen one day: HP and Fox News collide precisely. This nonsense has just got an airing on Hannity and Combes…

Councillor Asif should in future think before he opens his mouth and creates negative stories about his community
True, but when a prominent Muslim makes such a complaint, as a Muslim, it carries with it an implicit threat of violence.

This is the intimidation effect of the backdrop of continuing violence, inspired by mainstream Islamic jurisprudence of the ilk of the Rushdie affair, the Danish cartoons business, the 7/7 atrocity, and much more besides. I suspect that’s what’s raising the hackles here amongst many of the kuffar.

It’s worth reflecting on the fact that Islam has been propagated as much – perhaps more – by the threat of violence as by actual violence since the time of Mohammed in the 7th century.

Benjamin,
You’ll find up to 100 diferent organisations covering the story.

True, but when a prominent Muslim makes such a complaint, as a Muslim, it carries with it an implicit threat of violence.

What, from a middle-aged Labour Party member.

Get a grip.

A friend lives in a part of Brum where there are a lot of well-to-do Asians, (how do we know they are wealthy? – you have to be to live there) and we have noticed that Sikhs do not appear to have a problem with dogs, indeed they regularly walk their (always large)dogs around the leafy roads. We have also noticed that when a taxi with a Muslim driver comes round, they do not appear to be made welcome. Indeed, we have heard Sikhs make frankly abusive comments. Whether there is a connection between these facts I do not know.

Neil D, remember Shahid Mailik, a Labour MP signing that letter – along with other prominent Muslims, after the London bomb.

From where I sit, that came over as more than a little coercive.

Have you watched the film Bend it like Beckham? When the Sikh heroine decides she wants to play football seriously, she tells her Sikh parents she has some bad news for them. They assume the worst, and respond: “You want to marry a Moslem?” There is no love lost between the two communities. The Sikhs I know, in Hounslow, regard themselves as British Sikhs with the emphasis on British. My Sikh friends in Hounslow tell me Bend it Like Beckham was spot on.

Just as an addendum really, I am having a new bathroom installed at present and with Bath Store screwing up our order, I had to go out with the builder, a Romanian, to check out alternatives. We got stuck in his van in traffic and were chatting. I asked him how long he had been here (4 1/2 years) and why the UK.? He talked very sombrely about just how soul destroying life had been in Romania under the Communists, for a bright ambitious young man. He said they lived in a ghastly block of shoddy flats, with no greenery in sight. The Ceausecus knocked down all their history. The education system was poor and even if you could get an education it only led to a soul destroying job. Everyone was spied on, there was no choice, no trust, no pleasure. He went into the army but was determined to get out and he wanted a better life for his son.

He chose London because there was less bureaucracy to start his own business and because he found the English in general and Londoners, open minded and welcoming to incomers in a way that other Europeans are not. He loves London, he likes the greenery and the wild life and even the urban foxes. He has now managed to bring his family over and is looking forward to his son getting a good education here. He thinks of himself as a Londoner now and he is keen to integrate into the community. Is it because he is a Christian, not a Moslem, or because he is from industrial Eastern Europe not rural Pakistan? Or both. I wonder.

I shop in a local muslim owned supermarket for dog food (and cat food as it happens), I take my dog a walk on a lead but keep the lead short when I see a muslim on the pavement approaching me, so they are not worried. I once intervened when two neighbour’s dogs got on to the road and an elderly muslim passing by was clearly bothered by them (I wasn’t happy with those damn dogs either I have to say and assured the man he was safe to carry on after I got them into the garden). I have seen muslim children grin at my dog and clearly would like to stroke it though as no child should stroke dogs they don’t know I am happy they don’t.

I always clear up should my dog shit on the street (she doesn’t much, thankfully) and as I believe animals carry disease I try to watch any health issues; I can remember though clearing up dog shit from football pitches before my son’s team went out to play on them, so it helps if we are all aware of animal waste.

So my view is here is a complex issue over pets, beliefs, social interactions, health care and general welfare. I don’t think anyone should be offended by a picture of an animal, and don’t understand why there is an “outcry” over such images unless there are other agendas such as free publicity, generating fear for political ends, or promoting a lack of understanding.

Only those crying out could tell us what really troubles them.

I am puzzled though why a dog appears on a postcard or poster from the police, unless it is to do with dogs directly. As I am a designer of such things, I wonder if it is the best choice of image with a telephone… Think I may have looked for something else.

“Antarctic expeditions were occasionally driven to killing and eating their huskies. Some of them were poisoned by doing so.”

And indeed, in meta-fictional circularity this was used as a another dog-related plot point in `New Tricks’.

The problem isn’t huskies, or even dogs: it’s the liver of certain carnivorous species. The same applies to huskies as to polar bears and seals: their livers accumulate vitamin A, which is poisonous in large doses. You’re OK provided you don’t eat the liver.

However, if you find yourself in the Antarctic with a rifle and a plentiful supply of .300 win mag ammunition, don’t revel in the limitless supplies of lean meat too much. A diet which is exclusively protein will probably result in nephritis: make sure you eat some of the fat as well.

“Antarctic expeditions were occasionally driven to killing and eating their huskies. Some of them were poisoned by doing so.”

And yet the Chinese and Koreans thrive on dog meat. As, at various times, have the ancient Greeks, the Swiss, the Aztecs and west Africans.

The taste of dog might not appeal and you might have cultural scruples about not touching it. Fair enough. But it can be eaten safely is you are so minded.

Indeed, when Paris was under siege during the Franco-Prussian war the citizens were reduced to eating dog. There are some pretty good accounts (Henry Labouchere, an Englishman despite his name, is recommended) of how they overcame their modern style squeamishness to eat dog meat. You get they impression they’d have preferred steak and chips, but they survived it nonetheless.

I find that ultra-religious types are terrified of my tiny border terrier puppy.

My dog-in-law, a border collie, loves putting his head through drapes of material and peeking through. He will do this to women wearing skirts, much to his owner’s chagrin (although drawing attention to this by shouting at the dog and pulling him away is possibly more embarrassing than the original incursion).

An elderly Muslim lady once came to visit, and she arrived wearing a long sari. We knew she disliked dogs, so we secreted the little critter. He managed to escape from where we had hidden him, and went straight for the lady’s flowing silken robes.

Fortunately we managed to grab him before he did his party trick. Ha, ha, silly dog, we said, apologetically hauling him away by his collar.

In the oppressive heat of the arabian desert, pork would look like a fairly dangerous last resort.

Apparently not so. Archaelogical evidence has found pig bones in non-Jewish settlements situated in the same environment, with no apparent increase in the mortality rate.

C. Hitchens and others have posited that the real reason for the pork taboo is an abhorrence of human sacrifice – a taboo that is also the possible origin for circumcision amongst other Jewish traditions.

Bill – The huskies are fed on stuff like whale blubber and liver which has already concentrated lots if nasties so they have very high concentrations in their bodies. Street dogs or farmed dogs will probably have had a fairly omnivorous diet.

Escaping from the chaos caused by the builders, and taking refuge in my dust coated study, I have just had time to look at the Times and noticed the following headline: “I will not let male bigots win: Muslim councillor tells of threats against her”.

More BNP trouble perhaps? No the threats against Hasina Khan, who is the only Muslin councillor in Chorley, are from local male muslims who object to her public role. She says she has been subject to a barrage of threatening phone calls, verbal abuse and insulting graffiti – “and now there are some streets I can’t even walk down”.

Mrs Khan said: “if I was a male Asian councillor then he would be treated as a hero. Because I am a woman I get the opposite treatment. They can’t understand my views and how the British culutre should be respected. It has been extremely hard for me and my family and if wasn’t for my British constituents, I don’t think I would have been able to get through it”. Mrs Khan said she would not give in to the threats.

Dukandar Irdris, the iman of the Dawat ul-Islam mosque in Chroley said she should bave taken her grievances to the elders instead of speaking out. He said as imam he could not forbid Muslim women from standing for election but he would be entitled to forbid his wife. According to the Times, “he said that because this in Britain you can tell anyone what to do”. Except for his own wife of course.

Ah that makes sense Field. From now on it’s organic and free range dogs for me, only.

“This is, of course, a lie”

No, you are lying.

2An elderly Muslim lady once came to visit, and she arrived wearing a long sari. We knew she disliked dogs, so we secreted the little critter. He managed to escape from where we had hidden him, and went straight for the lady’s flowing silken robes.”

Yes Ha ha ha, it’s funny when dogs harrass minorities and passers by.

When dogs come up and invade my personal space, I respond with a sharp kick. This discourages most of them. Sometimes the owners complain, but not too strongly because deep down they know they are the ones in the wrong because they are not controlling the dog properly.

Tagnuzlsx: “it’s funny when dogs harrass minorities”
: I agree with you that dogs not kept under control are annoying, but what Mrs Trellis didn’t mention was that the woman in question was the widow of the first black chief justice of South Africa, a very feisty woman who calls my husband, her late husband’s friend, brother, and she would laugh derisively at your calling her a minority, which she certainly does not regard herself as in SA.
Patronising git, always trying to make moral capital out of even the most banal situation.

And although she keeps her distance from dogs, she is used to being in homes where she lives where large vicious dogs are kept, not so much as pets but as guard dogs.

I love that story about Mohammad and the cat, peace be upon both of them. It shows a proper regard for cats. It makes me want to convert. Now if Jesus had only said, “Blessed are the cat lovers, for they show a fastidious taste and cursed are the dog lovers for their acceptance of an abased and sickening servility,” I would never have left the church.

Trivial? Unfortunately not.

Next time anyone in public service wants to use a dog in a photo, they will remember this and probably NOT use the dog.

And of course once everyone is being careful about showing pictures of dogs then it is easy to think there is something wrong with dogs and pet ownership.

That’s how a culture dies.

That how paganism would have begun dying in the late Roman Empire as it simply became unrespectable to believe in a multiplicity of gods.

field

Paganism began dying in the late Roman Empire when the State adopted Christianity and started legislating against paganism – cf. Theodosian Code.

You could have something similar happen if the Govt. decided to ban pictures of dogs because it could offend someone.

David T said, “Normal Jews and Muslims seem generally positive towards dogs: particularly the Kurds.”

That’s an unnecessarily insulting thing to say about the Kurds.

KB Player said, “I love that story about Mohammad and the cat, peace be upon both of them. It shows a proper regard for cats. It makes me want to convert.”

I would think that a cat-astrophe.

…what Mrs Trellis didn’t mention was that the woman in question was the widow of the first black chief justice of South Africa

Hence why we went to such lengths to keep the dog out of the way. I think our actions made him, a contrary sort, all the more curious to investigate the visitor.

You can solemnly inform a dog about all the various edicts, hadiths and observations by the pious regarding his dirty nature and spiritual uncleanliness, but it will carry on regardless, eating random clods of dried grass and gravel, licking pavements and sniffing other dogs’ bottoms. My father’s dog, a very well behaved Labrador bitch, attended my mother’s funeral. Halfway through, she decided that it was the perfect time to clean her fairy in the only way she knew how.

My cats, however, appreciate the respect Mohammed had for them. One of them has decided that the only place she can sleep is on my husband’s very expensive memory foam pillow, now at the end of the bed for her exclusive use.

Death of civilisation through getting rid of the hideous Churchill, that bulldog who is supposed to be interested in potholes in the roads and the grossly sentimental Andrex puppy! Bring it on.

My cats, however, appreciate the respect Mohammed had for them. One of them has decided that the only place she can sleep is on my husband’s very expensive memory foam pillow, now at the end of the bed for her exclusive use.

I always knew you and your feline overlords had impeccable taste.

When dogs come up and invade my personal space, I respond with a sharp kick.

Try that with my dogs and I’ll respond with a number of sharp kicks and punches. Just a friendly warning.

“Try that with my dogs and I’ll respond with a number of sharp kicks and punches. Just a friendly warning.”

The righteousness of the semi-tamed carnivore owners. “Don’t mind that he’s put his muddy paws all over your white skirt. He’s just been friendly. He’s a big softie he is.”

I’d like to let a semi-tamed polecat up your trousers Mr W and when you complain, tell you Mr Burrows is a sweetie, you know, and be all offended when you don’t react benignly to his overtures.