Harry's Place

Hmmm. I’d be very careful about eliding the distinction between the anti-semitic abuse he and other Jewish football figures have suffered and abuse/criticism (in fact I’d be clear about the difference between the two) that he’s suffered for not being Morinho and being perceived as not having what it takes to manage at the highest level of European club football.

I would not claim to understand the mindset of the average Chelsea fan, but I’d guess that the majority of those criticising him are doing so because he’s not Mourinho, not because he’s Jewish. (I’d also be pretty confident in asserting that nasty terrace chants are generally indicative of vicious morons being deliberately hateful rather than any particular interest in geopolitics or history)

If the point is that dealing with contemporary anti-Jewish prejudice and the murderous historic legacy of antisemitism means he’s well equipped to shrug off vulgar abuse from the terraces, then: yes, of course.

Interesting article, yet strangely lacking in context about a city (I emphasise city as opposed to the UK as a whole) where one set of fans glorify in their perceived Jewishness, while others, for years, baited them with songs and chants glorifying the gas chambers. Nasty nonsense, of course, yet this has all but died out since London became the cosmopolitan mix of Russian billionaires, African soccer stars, South American emigrés and every other culture under the sun.

To me the abiding memory of Moscow wasn’t not the dignified demeanour of Avram Grant or his distraught captain, but rather the procession to receive medals after the game. One was lead by a footballing hero, revered as much for his shooting skills as his once-laughable hairstyle. The other was headed by a man who’s only obsession seams to be financial domination, a turncoat whose loyalty to a club is only measured by his paycheck.

Chelsea are loathed for many reasons, but Avram Grant isn’t one of them.

Football hasn’t been the same since the Chelsea Headhunters all got jobs in Recruitment Consultancies

(I am NOT expecting anyone across the Atlantic to understand this reference)

The “logic” of modern football encapsulates much of the least-charming aspects of our culture: the cult of celebrity, worship of brand names, infatuation with money, playground-style bullying, the basic inhumanity of blood-baying mob… (As somebody who loves football enough to have wanted both ManU and Chelsea to lose, I hasten to say that this is balanced by the sheer skill and artistry of players at their best, the total commitment and the very real human drama.)

Avram Grant received scorn and (often antisemitic) abuse because (1) he isn’t Jose Murinho, and (2) he is not a charismatic, greater-than-life bully a la Murinho or Ferguson. I wouldn’t read too much into any antisemitic aspect of it. Had Grant been Chinese, there would have been anti-Chinese abuse. Had he been red-headed, there would have been a red-head abuse. This is the logic of incited mob, latching into any perceive difference or “weakness” as a focus for abuse.

So let us not seek antisemitism where there is none (even if the underlying sentiment is hardly better than antisemitism). And, concurrently, let us acknowledge the considerable dignity that Avram Grant displayed, to his eternal credit, in this difficult situation.

Awful joke Venichka.

Are we being told here that Chelsea lost the Champions’ League because of anti-Semitism?

Football hasn’t been the same since the Chelsea Headhunters all got jobs in Recruitment Consultancies

Unfortunately, their jobs mean that they can still afford season tickets and their far right politics haven’t totally diminished. They are part of a small minority of Chelsea fans who don’t like Avram Grant because he is Jewish.

There is a larger minority of Chelsea fans who don’t like Grant because he is not Jose Mourinho, and who express this feeling in antisemitic language. There’s definitely been an increase in antisemitic chanting at Chelsea this season.

I think the idea that the media’s attitude towards Grant is driven by antisemitism is wrong, but I do think they’ve treated him badly.

Steve

Antisemitic chanting towards Spurs fans has certainly not died out, if anything it is more common nowadays than it has been for some years. Also it is not limited to people shouting “yiddo” back and forth but includes quite nasty stuff about Jews, Auschwitz etc.

Just to say that I have no idea what any of this is about.

Antisemitic chanting towards Spurs fans has certainly not died out, if anything it is more common nowadays than it has been for some years. Also it is not limited to people shouting “yiddo” back and forth but includes quite nasty stuff about Jews, Auschwitz etc.

Hmmm. It certinaly still happens, but rarely in a coordinated way. Random shouts from imbeciles, mostly with the very occasional reprise of “Gas a Jew”.

The joke (if there can be a joke where such things are concerend) is that 99% of Spurs fans won’t even be Jewish. They feign a superficial Jeiwsh affilliation and some moronic opposing fans then taunt them about this with references to Auschwitz, etc.. The 35,000 Spurs fans than get irate about this, even though they have no family connection whatsoever to the death camps and, outside of White Hart Lane, no desire to be associated with Judaism or any extension thereof.

It’s nuts.

Considering Ben felt it necessary to explain ‘Chelski’, I’m not sure anyone here does, a Dhaithi

From what I have read, Grant is sort of irrelevant… I mean, the heavy weight Chelsea players (Terry, etc.) are the real “coach”. True or false, I don’t know, but ex football players said that (and I have to assume that they didn’t fabricate this story). Don’t forget that when you have a lot of talent (and trillions bring you players with a lot of talent) playing is just easy and natural. The task of a coach is more vital when the squad is weak. No talent = tactical, team work must do the job (and that’s the coach’s job).

The coach has a very important task in the mega big squads though: “do not — repeat — do not destroy the expensive toy. Just let them play. Talent should prevail”.

“What went wrong for Chelsea”

As for the Premier league: you CANNOT win every year.
As for the Champions League (or KO League): it is a lottery.

My next door neighbours named their pet spaniel after the (nickname of) manager of the local team (Southend Utd): I presume as a sign of affection, but I’m not sure.

the majority of those criticising him are doing so because he’s not Mourinho, not because he’s Jewish.

If one calls Barak Obama a nigger because one disagrees with his foreign policy, that is racism. Using race as a means to cause damage is how this stuff works.

The joke (if there can be a joke where such things are concerend) is that 99% of Spurs fans won’t even be Jewish

Few Cleveland Indian fans are actually native americans.

Supporters of athletic teams choose to identify with the massacred and oppressed so that they can always feel to be the underdog.

I suspect Grant’s lack of popularity is primarily driven by these 4 factors:

- he’s not The Golden One (or whatever else Jose calls himself these days)
- the media love a bad guy
- Mensch or not, he seems to have all the charisma of a brick
- Roman himself seems somewhat indifferent to him (bizarrely considering how good friends they are).

There has been both racists and Jews in football for donkey’s years. He might be on the receiving end of some racism but I don’t think that makes him an exception.

I would agree with Greg. There are no doubt some Chelsea fans who are racist, anti-Semitic scum, but I think the majority of his detractors would have a downer on him even if he was a coach called Andy Grant from Bermondsey.

Maybe ‘6-06′ on Radio 5 Live is not the best forum for gauging what fans are like, but what strikes me about the Chelsea fans I listen to is that they sound like the ‘Viz’ character Spoilt Bastard. They were competing for the Premiership title, they got to the Champions League final, and all they could do was complain about how shit Grant was, and how everyone wanted Mourinho back.

They really do not deserve success. The idea that trophies are won more by hard work, team spirit and discipline than through roubles seems not to have occurred to the crowd at Stamford Bridge. I hope that Grant walks, the team falls out and Abramovich finds another plaything to lavish his millions on. Then the ‘Chelski’ fans will have something to whine about.

I’ve been to White Hart Lane (the Spurs stadium) a fair few times this season and almost always sit near the away fans, and I have to say that I haven’t heard any anti-semitic abuse. This is in itself quite surprising because of the Spurs fans extremely overt identification with Jewishness. It’s certainly much less than say, anti-catholicism or anti-scouse-ism, the latter of which seems to be regarded as completely acceptable.

Regarding Avram Grant, anti-semitism must be a factor for a vanishingly small number of people. There are plenty of reasons to dislike him, such as the facts that he’s completely out of his depth and only got the job because he’s mates with a certain Russian billionaire. This is the downside of your club being run by someone who regards it as their plaything (the upside being Drogba, Lampard et al).

I agree with the sentiments of the article, but the last para is mawkish in the extreme:

Grant, standing bolt upright, clasped a sobbing John Terry, the Chelsea captain, to his shoulder, like a tender father with his son. In that moment, Grant seemed impervious to the foul abuse heaped on him. “Avram, you’re a mensch,” I said to myself.

Er… He’s just doing what I’ve seen countless managers do in penalty competitions.You are really over-analysing all that.

“This is the downside of your club being run by someone who regards it as their plaything”

Yeah, Chelsea’s form has really taken a nosedive ever since.

What a load of cack. Still, it’s good to know that Grant hasn’t entirely wasted the cash he spent on that expensive PR firm.
Grant’s a competent coach. He’s ground out some decent results playing the same horrible style of football, with the same cynical gang of mercenaries and divers put in place by his predecessor. But he’s no tracksuit Dreyfus. Some of his unpopularity is down to anti-Semitism, but a lot has to be due to the preposterous sense of entitlement Chelsea’s fans have now acquired.

“As the Manchester United players leapt for joy around the pitch, Grant, standing bolt upright, clasped a sobbing John Terry, the Chelsea captain, to his shoulder, like a tender father with his son.” That’d be the same John Terry, who’d snuck behind Carlos Tevez and gobbed at him during the game. And incidentally wants to be England captain again. Maybe if he wants to make a stand for decency, he could start in his own backyard.

I’ve no love for Man United, but at least they play watchable football, and while they have their fair share of brats, seeing people like Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes receive medals has got to be better than Lampard, Drogba or Ashley Cole.

As regards the extent to which antisemitism is involved (any instance of antisemitism should be condemned) I don’t know for sure. It’s probably low, although I don’t follow the ins and outs of Chelsea a great deal. I suspect if Grant gets the chop its because there are better managers floating about and the boss has got very deep pockets.

Just to say that I have no idea what any of this is about

Oh thank goodness. its not just me. As such, am not sure if the following is strictly OT:

In a debate on antisemitism in the Commons last week, someone asked whether someone could be anti-Israel but not antisemitic “and vice versa”. I am not sure how the vice versa works- can anyone think of an e.g? Except in a neonazi kind of way- i.e all Jews go and live in Israel. I once heard an iconoclastic lecture on Daniel Deronda arguing that Eliot was not really philosemitic – the proto Zionist line in the book was informed by the attitude- Jews don’t belong here and it would be better for all concerned if they found a home in Palestine.

The always excellent Simon Kuper wrote a book a few years back called Ajax, The Dutch, The War: Football in Europe During the Second World War which explored, among other things, the self-identification of Ajax as a Jewish football club – even though it has had very few Jewish players, directors or fans (much like Spurs, in fact). Even now, Ajax fans often wave Israeli flags at matches and opposition fans make anti-semitic chants.

Incidentally, I’m surprised no-one has raised in this context the alleged ingrained anti-semitism of mist Russians, as noted in this CiF piece.

is “Chelski” really used because of the recent Jewish connection? never even occurred to me; i assumed it was just the Russian thing.

Few Cleveland Indian fans are actually native americans.

Are they targeted with anti-Arapaho chanting as a result? I’m not sure the Spurs thing is analagous with supporters of other teams merely refelcting back part of the franchise branding. Tottenham Hotspur FC don’t promote themselves as Jewish; this has come directly from the fans. Those Indians fans would be dressing as Cowboys if they were living in Dallas (or maybe not, but you get the point?).

i assumed it was just the Russian thing.

It is.

I’m not sure the Spurs thing is analagous with supporters of other teams merely refelcting back part of the franchise branding.

Its a top down vs. bottom up difference for sure. But I’d guess that the original, historical intent was the similar.

No, I really haven’t a clue as to what this post is about.

As a Spurs season ticket holder I think I have some experience of these matters.

There is a sizeable chunk of Chelsea fans who are anti-semitic – ranging for Hitler enthusiastic neo-Nazis, to run of the mill racists, to those who think it is funny to sing songs about “foreskins”. I encountered such fans and such behaviour during and after the Carling Cup final this year – and have on a number of occasions at Spurs and away from football grounds over the years.

I also disagree with Brownie about the 99% of goyish Spurs fans. I am a Tottenham goy but support the team because my best mates (Jewish) Dad did. Of the Spurs fans I know (and OK I live in north west London) its probably around 50/50. In any event I would suggest the proportion of fans is at minimum 20%.

I dont mind Grant (and I didnt mind Mourinho) but how I laughed on Wednesday

“Back in the 1970s, many Chelsea fans were notorious for their thuggery.”

Mmm, the ’70s? Don’t you mean the 70s/80s/90s & the 00s?

Chelsea have always been unloved for a reason.

This sort of fan behaviour is inconceivable in the USA. Whenever I read this kind of stuff I wonder how Europeans have the chutzpah to incessantly criticize the USA. We are so much more civilised. And I wasn’t even born here.

this is no mystery at all.

http://www.anthropologymatters.com/journal/2006-1/suber_2006_myth.htm

go to the end of the text, and read the 3th paragraph counting from the end.

What went wrong for Chelsea? There are two views.

I’d say there was at least one more – the benefits of continuity under Mr F. Grant’s as good a manager as anyone but he survives at a club who think they can buy success. Give him another year and he’d win something but the way chairmen are these days its unlikely (although at least Abramovich isn’t quite as loopy as Thaksin Shinawatra.)

Melk

Well, you might not have to put up with the cretinous behaviour described in this thread, over in the States, but your murder rate makes the Europeans look like amateurs. Definitely not a mark of being more civilsed.

Pangloss, what I said is that there is an antisemitic explanation for why Chelsea lost.

The reason I had to explain the meaning of “Chelski” is that, while I’m a Brit, I work in New York editing a website – http://www.z-word.com – with a mainly American audience, which is where this piece was first published. Trust me, over here you have to spell these things out.

Of course it’s possible to debate Avram’s managerial abilities without reference to his ethnicity. But the fact remains that his ethnicity has been a central issue. Why is that? Who raised it first? Not Avram Grant, not Pini Zahavi, not any of the commentators – it was the wankers sending him death threats and singing antisemitic bierkeller chants at the games. It’s because of them that we’re having this discussion.

if there are still those who aren’t convinced, cast your minds back to Claudio Ranieri’s time at Chelsea. He made some dreadful mistakes, but I don’t recall any chants of “you’re a f–king wop”, “bolognese-guzzling bastard” or anything similar. Antisemitism, and racism more generally, is deeply ingrained in football culture, which is why Grant was vulnerable. Read a John King novel and you’ll see.

Yes, the antisemites are a small minority. But arguably those who would deny or play down its seriousness are a bigger problem.

I would think that most people who attack Grant for being Jewish probably aren’t real anti semites, in the same way that those who call the current Cardiff manager a child abuser don’t really think that either. For them it’s something to latch onto , a sort of achiles heel.

A few points:

1) At a Spurs v West Ham game I was shocked to hear the songs from West Ham fans that bait the Spurs fans – i.e. the gas chambers reference
2) With a team assembled like Chelsea, expect them to be broken up this year – its all about the money
3) Cheslea demonstrate the worse aspects of the EPL esepcially on the pitch when they continually surround referees when decisions do not go their way – they complained about Tevez not passing teh ball back to Cech but at least twice Cheslea kicked the ball out of play making it more difficult for United
4) Grant will go – who knows if he is any good – he will get a new job

It’s certainly much less than say, anti-catholicism or anti-scouse-ism, the latter of which seems to be regarded as completely acceptable.

Aggrieved-victimhood shareout time! In a thread about, categorically, racist sentiment, what is the relevance of this?

“Cast your minds back to Claudio Ranieri’s time at Chelsea. He made some dreadful mistakes, but I don’t recall any chants of “you’re a f–king wop”, “bolognese-guzzling bastard” or anything similar.”

For fuck’s sake… are you seriously implying that British fans don’t engage in anti-Italian chanting? Have you ever attended a European game against an Italian side, or even watched one on telly? The essential difference between Ranieri and Grant, is that Ranieri didn’t have such high expectations to disappoint. By any objective criteria, he left Chelsea a more successful team than he found it. Grant cannot make any such claim.

“Antisemitism, and racism more generally, is deeply ingrained in football culture, which is why Grant was vulnerable. Read a John King novel and you’ll see.”

I rest my case. Worthy of the Fast Show’s Roger Nouveau-Supporter.

“Gambling and drinking vodka martinis is deeply ingrained in MI6’s culture. Read an Ian Fleming novel and you’ll see.”

Whereas, Mike S, you’re such a tribune of the people. No inauthenticity with you mate, salt of the earth aren’t you, “been going down the Bridge/Highbury/Upton Park/Fill-in-as-appropriate since before I was born…”

So: want to give us faux types an example of “anti-Italian chanting”?

I think the charge of anti-semitism is overdone. I recall a priceless TV moment some years ago when Darcus Howe visited a Charlton game and got angry over fans calling an opposing player a black bastard. After the match Charlton fans cheerfully pointed out it was nothing to do with his race – had he been a scouser he’d have a been a scouse bastard etc etc. Wenger at Arsenal has been accused of being a paedophile, Le Saux of Chelsea was accused of being a rent boy. Football can be tasteless and unpleasant. Grant has behaved with commendable dignity but most managerial careers end in failure. You could argue that Bryan Robson one of England’s greatest modern footballers is treated by the media as an incompetent drunk, Hoddle an arrogant God-botherer, Keegan a petulant simpleton. And they’re all Englsih. Any insults will do where football criticism is concerned.

‘Whereas, Mike S, you’re such a tribune of the people. No inauthenticity with you mate, salt of the earth aren’t you, “been going down the Bridge/Highbury/Upton Park/Fill-in-as-appropriate since before I was born…”’

Prenton Park and Anfield actually, but I’d never claim religiously, which is kind of my point. For God’s sake, you need a very rudimentary working knowledge of the Premiership to realise the difference between what Grant has achieved and what Ranieri did. Equally you’ve only got to watch an English team playing Inter or Juve on telly to hear “same old Eyeties, always cheating.”

I wish Grant all the best, he seems like a nice feller but with the frankly astounding £5m pay-off he has coming for basically inheriting Mourinho’s stellar squad, plus 15 million for Anelka, and still winning nothing, I feel my sympathy might be better placed elsewhere.

“Grant The Fighter against antisemitism”. What, where? I must have missed this, due to the antisemitism of the English media, or maybe it just never happened. Personally, I’ve had to single out an English sports figure as a fighter against anti-semitism it would be Ben Helfgott – that guy is a true 24-karat hero, and he doesn’t need Chelsea’s PR team to prove it.

“Equally you’ve only got to watch an English team playing Inter or Juve on telly to hear ’same old Eyeties, always cheating.’”

Mike, this hardly carries the same venom as “Gaaaaaasss a Jew! Jew! Jew!” or – a favourite over in Holland – “Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas.”

As to fighting antisemitism, I spelled it out above. He made a very public visit to Auschwitz. He spoke clearly about his father (and his mother, who was booted out of Iraq). Had he not had to endure the arseholes in the crowd and the death threats, I doubt he would have felt the need to do these things.

The 5 million is irrelevant, surely? These insane numbers are part and parcel of the Premier League these days.

As for Chelsea’s PR team, don’t be absurd – if anything, they played the antisemitism issue down.

“Mike, this hardly carries the same venom as “Gaaaaaasss a Jew! Jew! Jew!.” Agreed, but the question was do English fans engage in anti-Italian chanting. They do and in greater numbers than they do anti-semitic chanting.

“As for Chelsea’s PR team, don’t be absurd – if anything, they played the antisemitism issue down.”

They certainly didn’t initially, they might have had a volte-face when a number of Chelsea fans objected to the sly implication that criticism of Grant’s appointment equated to anti-semitism. Martin Samuel who knows more about football than me, and certainly you, wrote about it very eloquently here.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/martin_samuel/article2577718.ece

Anyway Pini Zahavi reckons it’s not Chelsea Fans who are anti-semites, it’s all the others.
“There are no words to describe the mistreatment Avram is receiving,” Zahavi said in an interview with Israeli daily newspaper Ma’ariv.

“They are sucking his blood on a daily basis regardless of his victories and what he achieves.

“You know what, maybe if he hadn’t been Israeli or Jewish, it might have been different.

“Obviously there is some sort of anti-Semitism here, especially if one remembers who appointed him. Abramovich is not only Jewish but also Russian and Jewish. So the Chelsea fans love him, but the rest of the fans in England certainly don’t.”
According to Pini, we are all Hezbollah now, whether we like it or not.

Look Grant is a nice guy, and no-one should have to put up with the stuff you cited. Bottom line is that he wasn’t good enough, and his nationality and/or his choice of prayer book doesn’t alter this one jot.