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	<title>Comments on: Not to be baneful</title>
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	<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/</link>
	<description>Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don&#039;t want to hear</description>
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		<title>By: chjh</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/comment-page-2/#comment-174689</link>
		<dc:creator>chjh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 12:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/#comment-174689</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It occurred to me that, for example, the free concert organised by ‘Love Music, Hate Racism‘ should have only been free to those who could show a valid voter’s card.&lt;/i&gt; The next day was a school day, after all, so there shouldn&#039;t have been any school students at it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>It occurred to me that, for example, the free concert organised by ‘Love Music, Hate Racism‘ should have only been free to those who could show a valid voter’s card.</i> The next day was a school day, after all, so there shouldn&#8217;t have been any school students at it.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/comment-page-2/#comment-174581</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 02:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/#comment-174581</guid>
		<description>&quot;And you expect us to believe that is not a major problem do you?&quot;

I don&#039;t think the country is being flooded with Libyans giving birth to quintuplets, so no, it&#039;s not a major problem.

Incidentally, my life was saved at birth by an Indian consultant. When my son was born two years ago, the entire team was foreign - Kenyan, Indian, Mauritian, Irish - and I was totally impressed by the way they handled my wife&#039;s emergency Caesarian and my son&#039;s initial health problems. Bring more of them in, I say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And you expect us to believe that is not a major problem do you?&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the country is being flooded with Libyans giving birth to quintuplets, so no, it&#8217;s not a major problem.</p>
<p>Incidentally, my life was saved at birth by an Indian consultant. When my son was born two years ago, the entire team was foreign &#8211; Kenyan, Indian, Mauritian, Irish &#8211; and I was totally impressed by the way they handled my wife&#8217;s emergency Caesarian and my son&#8217;s initial health problems. Bring more of them in, I say.</p>
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		<title>By: Venichka</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/comment-page-2/#comment-174560</link>
		<dc:creator>Venichka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 21:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/#comment-174560</guid>
		<description>Alan Ji,

Nice idea, in theory, but I am absolutely certain as to what the response to that would be in large swathes of Scotland, a fair bit of Wales, not even to mention the other place in our tri-and-a-bit-national state.

(I love the fact that the UK is not a nation state: I think that is something to celebrate. But it is made up of various nations, and it seems quite reasonable to me, that if the Scots can celebrate feeling Scottish without any shame - - despite, say, the sectarianism that plagues certain parts of their soceity, if the Welsh can celebrate feeling Welsh - and part of a multilingual country, too - which also applies to the Scots, I think it eminently reasonable and correct that the English should be able to do likewise without being suspected of racism - often from the most bigoted section of society at all, that which masquerades as liberals)

As I say, using the Union Flag to celebrate Englishness would be like (in not an exact parallel) using the flag of the USSR to celebrate Russianness. 

Not on, in other words.

David T - I think the English flag is BEAUTIFUL, and powerful. (Seeing a variation thereof waved ont he streets of Georgia during the Rose Revolution  - - and I am by no means a fan or defender of the current Georgian regime - nor am I advocating that Georgia provides a role model for almost any aspect of British life....white and red - - it&#039;s quite something. 

Seems very odd that as a kid, growing up in Dagenham of all places, the only occasions on which it was seen was on Anglican Churches on the 23rd April. While in a way I think it quite fine....that we as a state are above flag-waving and hopefully deprecate nationalism, which can easily be a poison and an evil...it&#039;s also quite odd....and flying the flag outside City Hall just seems like something natural, but also in a way, quite trivial. (It&#039;s not as if there are any disputes about territory, or any serious disputes about the legitimacy of the state, or the territories it should control, for example: again, Northern Ireland is a different matter - and it&#039;s probably best, for now, that that place does not have an official flag for the time being, until it really does accept its existence as a bi-ethnic/bi-religious/bi-national - or in fact multi- all of those things entity)

Compared with countries (again I refer to the post-Soviet world) where every single block of flats has a flagpole holder, on which it is compulsory to fly the national flag on certain designated days of the year....I think nationalism is actually quite healthily kept within check in England.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan Ji,</p>
<p>Nice idea, in theory, but I am absolutely certain as to what the response to that would be in large swathes of Scotland, a fair bit of Wales, not even to mention the other place in our tri-and-a-bit-national state.</p>
<p>(I love the fact that the UK is not a nation state: I think that is something to celebrate. But it is made up of various nations, and it seems quite reasonable to me, that if the Scots can celebrate feeling Scottish without any shame &#8211; - despite, say, the sectarianism that plagues certain parts of their soceity, if the Welsh can celebrate feeling Welsh &#8211; and part of a multilingual country, too &#8211; which also applies to the Scots, I think it eminently reasonable and correct that the English should be able to do likewise without being suspected of racism &#8211; often from the most bigoted section of society at all, that which masquerades as liberals)</p>
<p>As I say, using the Union Flag to celebrate Englishness would be like (in not an exact parallel) using the flag of the USSR to celebrate Russianness. </p>
<p>Not on, in other words.</p>
<p>David T &#8211; I think the English flag is BEAUTIFUL, and powerful. (Seeing a variation thereof waved ont he streets of Georgia during the Rose Revolution  &#8211; - and I am by no means a fan or defender of the current Georgian regime &#8211; nor am I advocating that Georgia provides a role model for almost any aspect of British life&#8230;.white and red &#8211; - it&#8217;s quite something. </p>
<p>Seems very odd that as a kid, growing up in Dagenham of all places, the only occasions on which it was seen was on Anglican Churches on the 23rd April. While in a way I think it quite fine&#8230;.that we as a state are above flag-waving and hopefully deprecate nationalism, which can easily be a poison and an evil&#8230;it&#8217;s also quite odd&#8230;.and flying the flag outside City Hall just seems like something natural, but also in a way, quite trivial. (It&#8217;s not as if there are any disputes about territory, or any serious disputes about the legitimacy of the state, or the territories it should control, for example: again, Northern Ireland is a different matter &#8211; and it&#8217;s probably best, for now, that that place does not have an official flag for the time being, until it really does accept its existence as a bi-ethnic/bi-religious/bi-national &#8211; or in fact multi- all of those things entity)</p>
<p>Compared with countries (again I refer to the post-Soviet world) where every single block of flats has a flagpole holder, on which it is compulsory to fly the national flag on certain designated days of the year&#8230;.I think nationalism is actually quite healthily kept within check in England.</p>
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		<title>By: Monty</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/comment-page-2/#comment-174482</link>
		<dc:creator>Monty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 11:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/#comment-174482</guid>
		<description>&quot;Well you don’t know they paid nothing - or at least you offer no evidence to back this assertion. &quot;

The bill was eventually paid by an Italian company which had employed the husband. They were not liable, but they stumped up to get rid of the negative publicity surrounding the outcry in the local press. For the displaced families who had to cover travel and accomodation costs to spend time with their preemie babies, we raised money with a local appeal fund. But on a National scale this problem is costing us millions, and the NHS trusts don&#039;t deny that.

&quot;Furthermore, in the round, the NHS uses the resources of medical staff from overseas, so it probably evens itself out.&quot;

Er, these folk don&#039;t work for nowt, the taxpayer pays their wages. That&#039;s the deal isn&#039;t it? 

&quot;I suppose one could institute some sort of tiresome bureaucratic measure to make sure only the ‘correct’ people use the NHS, (presumably taxpayers and legal immigrants). &quot;

Do you mean like that tiresome bureaucratic procedure at the bank where you have a paying-in book, that ensures that your money doesn&#039;t wind up in someone elses account? Or that childish system at the supermarket check-out where you get to keep the groceries you&#039;ve just paid for? And that singularly unjust lottery where the only folk who win the jackpot are the ones who paid for a ticket? The answer is yes. I want what I have paid for, or I&#039;m not paying. And we shouldn&#039;t be taking on an army of civil servants to sort it all out. We should refuse entry to any non-EU nationals who can&#039;t produce a certificate of medical insurance.

You have submitted three arguments:
1. The problem doesn&#039;t exist.
2. The problem exists, but it is our own fault for giving NHS jobs to foreign staff.
3. The problem exists, you have thought about a solution but decided it is impossible to solve.

And you are wrong on all three counts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Well you don’t know they paid nothing &#8211; or at least you offer no evidence to back this assertion. &#8221;</p>
<p>The bill was eventually paid by an Italian company which had employed the husband. They were not liable, but they stumped up to get rid of the negative publicity surrounding the outcry in the local press. For the displaced families who had to cover travel and accomodation costs to spend time with their preemie babies, we raised money with a local appeal fund. But on a National scale this problem is costing us millions, and the NHS trusts don&#8217;t deny that.</p>
<p>&#8220;Furthermore, in the round, the NHS uses the resources of medical staff from overseas, so it probably evens itself out.&#8221;</p>
<p>Er, these folk don&#8217;t work for nowt, the taxpayer pays their wages. That&#8217;s the deal isn&#8217;t it? </p>
<p>&#8220;I suppose one could institute some sort of tiresome bureaucratic measure to make sure only the ‘correct’ people use the NHS, (presumably taxpayers and legal immigrants). &#8221;</p>
<p>Do you mean like that tiresome bureaucratic procedure at the bank where you have a paying-in book, that ensures that your money doesn&#8217;t wind up in someone elses account? Or that childish system at the supermarket check-out where you get to keep the groceries you&#8217;ve just paid for? And that singularly unjust lottery where the only folk who win the jackpot are the ones who paid for a ticket? The answer is yes. I want what I have paid for, or I&#8217;m not paying. And we shouldn&#8217;t be taking on an army of civil servants to sort it all out. We should refuse entry to any non-EU nationals who can&#8217;t produce a certificate of medical insurance.</p>
<p>You have submitted three arguments:<br />
1. The problem doesn&#8217;t exist.<br />
2. The problem exists, but it is our own fault for giving NHS jobs to foreign staff.<br />
3. The problem exists, you have thought about a solution but decided it is impossible to solve.</p>
<p>And you are wrong on all three counts.</p>
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		<title>By: hasan prishtina</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/comment-page-2/#comment-174481</link>
		<dc:creator>hasan prishtina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 11:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/#comment-174481</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s plain to see that, though the BNP scored well in a number of areas, they got nearly 10% in East London. I cannot help thinking that the plans for the &#039;mega-mosque&#039; in West Ham have something to do with this. 

For many people, the matter of building mosques is neither here nor there; there are hundreds of them in the London and the rest of the UK. But this one is to be built for tens of thousands of worshippers and is to be run by a rather questionable sect. There are a great many people, Muslims included, who oppose the mosque.

Ken is an enthusiastic supporter of this project and refused to listen to its opponents. The campaigners against the mosque may have rejected the far-right, but for many voters, this looks like domination by a small minority with the full support of the powers that be. As things stood on May 1, this issue was a gift for the BNP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s plain to see that, though the BNP scored well in a number of areas, they got nearly 10% in East London. I cannot help thinking that the plans for the &#8216;mega-mosque&#8217; in West Ham have something to do with this. </p>
<p>For many people, the matter of building mosques is neither here nor there; there are hundreds of them in the London and the rest of the UK. But this one is to be built for tens of thousands of worshippers and is to be run by a rather questionable sect. There are a great many people, Muslims included, who oppose the mosque.</p>
<p>Ken is an enthusiastic supporter of this project and refused to listen to its opponents. The campaigners against the mosque may have rejected the far-right, but for many voters, this looks like domination by a small minority with the full support of the powers that be. As things stood on May 1, this issue was a gift for the BNP.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Deathy</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/comment-page-2/#comment-174446</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Deathy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 09:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/#comment-174446</guid>
		<description>&quot;Sure thing, Red. The day the French vote in your elections for Parliament I will eat my kippa.&quot;

Nice qualification, there, French citizens in UK can vote in local and European elections - some of those French voted for Boris, I&#039;m sure.  But, Fabian, Irish citizens can and do vote in UK parliamentary elections...

What&#039;s that sound? oh, it&#039;s just a crap argument crumbling...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sure thing, Red. The day the French vote in your elections for Parliament I will eat my kippa.&#8221;</p>
<p>Nice qualification, there, French citizens in UK can vote in local and European elections &#8211; some of those French voted for Boris, I&#8217;m sure.  But, Fabian, Irish citizens can and do vote in UK parliamentary elections&#8230;</p>
<p>What&#8217;s that sound? oh, it&#8217;s just a crap argument crumbling&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/comment-page-2/#comment-174434</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 07:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/#comment-174434</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;... whether or not a flag flies on top of City Hall? ... bearing in mind that they fly outside...&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Outside is sufficient. Literally on top of the building is bonkers. Is that what they wanted?

[Bonkers, strange, unreasonable demands.. it&#039;s all starting to fall into place now...]

I agree with BJW that there is a danger in letting them set the agenda, though there is an equal danger in not listening to legitimate grievances or concerns of voters in the mistaken supposition that the BNP have placed it on the agenda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8230; whether or not a flag flies on top of City Hall? &#8230; bearing in mind that they fly outside&#8230;&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Outside is sufficient. Literally on top of the building is bonkers. Is that what they wanted?</p>
<p>[Bonkers, strange, unreasonable demands.. it's all starting to fall into place now...]</p>
<p>I agree with BJW that there is a danger in letting them set the agenda, though there is an equal danger in not listening to legitimate grievances or concerns of voters in the mistaken supposition that the BNP have placed it on the agenda.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/comment-page-2/#comment-174430</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 03:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/#comment-174430</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It occurred to me that, for example, the free concert organised by ‘Love Music, Hate Racism‘ should have only been free to those who could show a valid voter’s card. Perhaps discounted tickets could have been offered to those who registered to vote at the event. The notion that giving something away for free to generate publicity will magically galvanise people into action is naive.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh, blimey. Look, it&#039;s a  music event, as well as an anti-racist event. If it&#039;s a free day out for people after a hard week&#039;s work, or poor people attend too, its not a disaster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>It occurred to me that, for example, the free concert organised by ‘Love Music, Hate Racism‘ should have only been free to those who could show a valid voter’s card. Perhaps discounted tickets could have been offered to those who registered to vote at the event. The notion that giving something away for free to generate publicity will magically galvanise people into action is naive.</i></p>
<p>Oh, blimey. Look, it&#8217;s a  music event, as well as an anti-racist event. If it&#8217;s a free day out for people after a hard week&#8217;s work, or poor people attend too, its not a disaster.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/comment-page-2/#comment-174429</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 03:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/#comment-174429</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It is not much more than a year ago, my local paediatric intensive care unit was effectively wiped out by a Libyan woman who arrived at our hospital, having received fertility treatment in Tripoli, and gave birth to five babies in our hospital. They left us with no spare capacity whatsoever. Local families had to travel to the next county to visit their own premature babies. And when their babies were stabilised, the Libyan couple took them and flew home, having paid nothing.&lt;/i&gt;

Well you don&#039;t know they paid nothing - or at least you offer no evidence to back this assertion. 

Furthermore, in the round, the NHS uses the resources of medical staff from overseas, so it probably evens itself out. 

I suppose one could institute some sort of tiresome bureaucratic  measure to make sure only the &#039;correct&#039; people use the NHS, (presumably taxpayers and legal immigrants). 

But there are all sorts of ramifications to that. Moreover, considering how various IT projects under Labour have hit the buffers, I don&#039;t give it much chance of success.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>It is not much more than a year ago, my local paediatric intensive care unit was effectively wiped out by a Libyan woman who arrived at our hospital, having received fertility treatment in Tripoli, and gave birth to five babies in our hospital. They left us with no spare capacity whatsoever. Local families had to travel to the next county to visit their own premature babies. And when their babies were stabilised, the Libyan couple took them and flew home, having paid nothing.</i></p>
<p>Well you don&#8217;t know they paid nothing &#8211; or at least you offer no evidence to back this assertion. </p>
<p>Furthermore, in the round, the NHS uses the resources of medical staff from overseas, so it probably evens itself out. </p>
<p>I suppose one could institute some sort of tiresome bureaucratic  measure to make sure only the &#8216;correct&#8217; people use the NHS, (presumably taxpayers and legal immigrants). </p>
<p>But there are all sorts of ramifications to that. Moreover, considering how various IT projects under Labour have hit the buffers, I don&#8217;t give it much chance of success.</p>
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		<title>By: King Creole</title>
		<link>http://hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/comment-page-2/#comment-174428</link>
		<dc:creator>King Creole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 02:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/05/06/not-to-be-baneful/#comment-174428</guid>
		<description>“It occurred to me that, for example, the free concert organised by ‘Love Music, Hate Racism‘ should have only been free to those who could show a valid voter’s card”

Events cost a great deal more money if you charge for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“It occurred to me that, for example, the free concert organised by ‘Love Music, Hate Racism‘ should have only been free to those who could show a valid voter’s card”</p>
<p>Events cost a great deal more money if you charge for them.</p>
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