Its lamentable that a socialist group would defend these sort of views.

the SWP probably would simply ignore the evidence, or say that it is a pile of Neo-Con Zionist imperialist lies

you have to remember that the SWP are not constrained by facts or a love of evidence, they have thrown their lot in with Hezbollah, excused Narsallah’s genocidal antisemitic rantings so they’re not really terribly concerned with what happens to Israelis or Jews

(Members btw who had actually refused to emigrate to Israel as they identified as Lebanese)

A process btw which effectively drove all the remaining Jewish members from the country and closed down the synagogues etc.

I guess the NK Jews are ok – as long as they don’t actually live in Lebanon…

I am concerned with the political situation and the ramifications, which is why I find your proposal so distasteful, because it plays straight into the hands of hamas and Islamic jihad

they want precisely what you have proposed, because they see it as the only way out, they are nihilists they won’t surrender, as clearly the recent Channel 4 inside Gaza, documentary showed

but let’s look at your points, at the moment the Egyptians might not pick up the slack, but this is not a static situation and if Israel were to adopt your barbaric tactics then there would be some response, then Egypt would be compelled by her populous to do something, and not least by Arab public opinion

if you somehow think that Egypt would do nothing and that public opinion in the Arab world would remain static, please tells us how that would happen?

you wrote:

If the Gazans don’t like being treated as what they are, perhaps they’ll change.

you need to make some elementary distinction between the populace of Gaza and their leaders, the two are different

and let’s suppose that your brutal proposal works, the Gazans change their opinions, how exactly do you expect them to act

do you expect impoverished people to attack the armed militias with their bare hands?

do you expect Gazans to fight Hamas with empty stomachs?

or more likely, such a proposal would brutalise Gazans and lead them to support Hamas even more

why do you essentialise Gazans?

according to surveys most of them would prefer to live in peace as Israelis would, however, they are led by armed gangs so cannot fully obtain the necessary peace, because it would mean attacking armed gangs with their bare hands

the Gazans are largely prisoners of the Hamas State, and it will be morally wrong to punish all of them, apart from being a political folly

that is precisely what Hamas want, and yet you can’t see it can you?

and yet you can’t address any of the points that I raised?

still worse you couldn’t see any downside to it, could you?

but let’s examine your point concerning the tunnels, if Israel were to do as you say and to break the Gazans will by completely cutting them off, then Egypt would be compelled to pick up the slack (forced not only by Egyptian public opinion but the wider Arab world), and the border with Egypt would become non-existent, it is certainly possible that Egypt could run additional powerlines and ensure water supplies

then you would be back to square one, but without any leverage, because Israel would not be supplying any of the essential services, however would still be on the receiving rockets into Sderot

so no, it is a stupid idea, utterly counter productive and destined to make a bad situation even worse

it would embolden Hamas, provide them with millions in funding and not achieve anything useful

I hope that is clear, even to you?

well, I would have thought it was bleeding obvious why not? but let’s look at some of the downside:

1) Seymour Paine’s proposal assumes that you could hermetically sealed Gaza and break everyone’s will there until they say “surrender”

2) given the fact that the vast majority of the Gazan population will be affected, not the leadership, who’ve already prepared for this, laying in stocks of food and fuel it seems slightly preposterous

3) given the tunnels and the reinforcements that would flow in from Egypt, it is unlikely that you could buckle the Hamas leaderships will, as they have been content to see the Palestinians impoverished and brutalised for the last two years (all for the want of i) accepting Israel’s right to exist ii) validating existing agreements, as is common with the continuity of government), so it is implausible that they would say “surrender” under any circumstance

4) such a proposal would hand a political victory to Hamas and rally support to them, throughout the world

5) neighbouring Arab states would show an increasing belligerence towards Israel and provide support for Hamas

6) Egypt would be compelled to open her borders

7) Hamas would receive extra funding and probably start longer range rockets as a result

8) etc etc

need I go on?

it is a cackhanded, clumsy, barbaric and inhumane proposal to suppose that you can make Palestinians in Gaza “surrender” by imposing more brutality on them,

it is not only a false notion, but myopic and mindless because it does not take into account any of the lessons of the most immediate past, which show that the premise of such a proposal is grossly mistaken

all of that is just looking at the political ramifications and leaving aside the humanitarian aspects, for the moment

it would be an own goal for Israel and Hamas’s dream, playing straight into their hands.